What is low battery

[Woodpaddler]

Trying to get any information out of roadtrek not happening.
Picked 2017 Zion has solar with auto start the other day.

Manual likes to talk about low battery, but what is low?

Battery was 11.74v this morning but it been 12.64.
Co detecter went off manual said maybe low battery.
Engine comes on when battery gets low.

Talking to rt service they just side step the question. Go read this pdf which is just a page from the manual. But we did get the inverter figured out.

I just like to know how, when and why something works. I had a service company for 40 yrs it's how I think.

Thanks

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Woodpaddler

Trying to get any information out of roadtrek not happening.
Picked 2017 Zion has solar with auto start the other day.

Manual likes to talk about low battery, but what is low?

Battery was 11.74v this morning but it been 12.64.
Co detecter went off manual said maybe low battery.
Engine comes on when battery gets low.

Talking to rt service they just side step the question. Go read this pdf which is just a page from the manual. But we did get the inverter figured out.

I just like to know how, when and why something works. I had a service company for 40 yrs it's how I think.

Thanks

I guess you have the standard AGM house battery, not Ecotrek batteries, and the underhood generator with Voltstart to autostart the engine, is that correct?

[mojoman]

Most MFG include $ in their invoice for a through lesson of features and operation and prep of the unit. Sounds like the person delivering it to you didn't spend much time. Your dealer should be able to answer your questions or find out for you quickly.

[Woodpaddler]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

I guess you have the standard AGM house battery, not Ecotrek batteries, and the underhood generator with Voltstart to autostart the engine, is that correct?

Yes that's what we have

[Davydd]

In the two Class Bs I bought from a dealer it was clear they did not know much other than the rudimentary stuff. The salesmen did not have direct experience. So, considering the technical differences of a Roadtrek EcoTrek compared to other RVs I suspect they are as much in the dark as the customer.

My first and new to RVing, the Pleasure-way Plateau, was a mystery but we covered just about everything in an hour orientation. The hour was overwhelming as it was and after I wish I had someone there to video it so I could have re-reviewed it.

When I bought my second RV, the Great West Van Legend, I had done so much research that I realized I knew way more than the dealer about their own product and didn't need much orientation.

The third, the Advanced RV, though I had again done a lot of research and participated in the building of it, I still needed two full days of orientation to go over all the systems at the manufacturer's shop reviewing everything with a team of people that actually designed the systems.

Some of these RVs are getting much more complex to understand. The manufacturers have to be more transparent about what they are selling and provide complete and detailed information. They can't leave it to dealers especially when they have a large network of them. In this day and age of PDF manuals and videos it shouldn't be too hard to provide full information and orientation.

To answer the OP, low battery is a discharged battery which equates to use of electrical systems in the B. It can be stated in voltage or depth of discharge. I believe when you discharge a battery 80% then Voltstart automatically comes on and recharges your battery. You have to be aware and learn what you can and cannot do with your B in regard to battery use and gain experience in how long a battery will stay adequately charged. Driving frequently and staying plugged into shore power to keep batteries charged will alleviate most concerns. Letting a B sit unattended and not connected to shore power is a concern and you need to know what to do, when to check, disconnect batteries, etc. That will come with experience.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Woodpaddler

Yes that's what we have

I am not positive what the trigger voltage for AGM batteries is for the engine autostart but I think it is around 11.8 volts, maybe a little higher.

AGM batteries are typically recharged when they get to around 50% discharge which is around 12.1 volts resting voltage but using 11.8 volts for the Voltstart is consistent since this is not resting voltage but voltage under a load.

The only thing unusual is the CO detector going off at that high of a voltage but it may be that the CO detector is very sensitive to voltage.

You might want to join the Roadtrek & Hymer Owners Group on Facebook if you want to connect with lots of Zion owners...

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by Woodpaddler

Trying to get any information out of roadtrek not happening.
Picked 2017 Zion has solar with auto start the other day.

Manual likes to talk about low battery, but what is low?

Battery was 11.74v this morning but it been 12.64.
Co detecter went off manual said maybe low battery.
Engine comes on when battery gets low.

Talking to rt service they just side step the question. Go read this pdf which is just a page from the manual. But we did get the inverter figured out.

I just like to know how, when and why something works. I had a service company for 40 yrs it's how I think.

Thanks

Did the 11.74v you saw occur when running a large load?

Check to see if the AGM battery is the Northstar brand. If so, they have slightly different maintenance instructions than other brands. Some info: http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f5...html#post23162

Fully charged resting voltage (OCV) would be around 13.0V from the document I read.

You want to make sure to fully charge an AGM battery. The best way to know if the battery is fully charged is to use an ammeter to show the amps flowing through the circuit. I think the Northstar batteries will take up to 14.7V. When the amp flow has dropped to 1 or 2 amps in at 14.4V+ then the battery will be close to fully charged.

[Woodpaddler]

Update
Reason under hood generator didn't come. The switch was off and nobody could find it either. Had to call rt and they looked up where they put it. Not on the power panel, it's by the drivers door. A small button the size of a dime, no label.
Dealers tech knows guy that works there and able to get the info. The engineer that came up this wasn't at the top of the class.
Well the voltstart comes on around 11.5 v . But the kicker is the co / propane detecter starts beeping on low voltage at around 12.1.
Got be away to fix that

[markopolo]

12.1V is a low voltage if no load or very low load.

It's much harder to pick a one size fits all trigger voltage for voltstart with AGM's. If I had to choose I would probably pick 12.0V or maybe a bit more. That would keep the AGM's above 20% SOC if low load draws (like the fridge) were what caused the voltstart to activate. Volstart would kick in more often with large loads (maybe even all the time) but that would be good for the AGM's.

You might be able to request a volstart module with a trigger set-point based on your particular usage needs.

Have you tried fully charging the batteries by plugging in for 24 to 36 hours or so? I think you need to get the battery fully charged then see if solar will keep it topped up.

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

12.1V is a low voltage if no load or very low load.

It's much harder to pick a one size fits all trigger voltage for voltstart with AGM's. If I had to choose I would probably pick 12.0V or maybe a bit more. That would keep the AGM's above 20% SOC if low load draws (like the fridge) were what caused the voltstart to activate. Volstart would kick in more often with large loads (maybe even all the time) but that would be good for the AGM's.

You might be able to request a volstart module with a trigger set-point based on your particular usage needs.

Have you tried fully charging the batteries by plugging in for 24 to 36 hours or so? I think you need to get the battery fully charged then see if solar will keep it topped up.

Very true. If the air conditioning is on, it could draw down a 2 AGM battery system (200ah or so) to 12.0 volts while they were still at a high SOC. Tough call as to where to set things to be safe on low loads, without tripping early on big loads. Sure would be nicer to have a SOC activated system, so the problems go away.

[gregmchugh]

There is a Voltstart users guide on the Roadtrek website in the How To section here...

http://www.roadtrek.com/support-contact/#section-how

[RedRoadTtrek]

Originally Posted by Woodpaddler

Trying to get any information out of roadtrek not happening.
Picked 2017 Zion has solar with auto start the other day.

Manual likes to talk about low battery, but what is low?

Battery was 11.74v this morning but it been 12.64.
Co detecter went off manual said maybe low battery.
Engine comes on when battery gets low.

Talking to rt service they just side step the question. Go read this pdf which is just a page from the manual. But we did get the inverter figured out.

I just like to know how, when and why something works. I had a service company for 40 yrs it's how I think.

Thanks

The major problem so far with the Zion is that RoadTrek didn't put enough battery capacity in to really boondock. The AGM 400AH battery is a great battery, but was constantly dropping below 12V and setting off the CO detector/low voltage alarm. We added another 200AH of Lifeline AGM batteries underneath (yes, an engineering challenge to do it safely and securely). We are contemplating adding another AGM 400AH topside (which will bring us to over 1000AH of house batteries), and giving up the precious storage space to do so. The Volt Start was a non-starter, and nobody had any idea how to make the engine idle at the 1500 RPM required to really throw a charge into the batteries. Anybody have any experience with batteries or how to get a good idle-up speed when stationary charging?

[booster]

Originally Posted by RedRoadTtrek

The major problem so far with the Zion is that RoadTrek didn't put enough battery capacity in to really boondock. The AGM 400AH battery is a great battery, but was constantly dropping below 12V and setting off the CO detector/low voltage alarm. We added another 200AH of Lifeline AGM batteries underneath (yes, an engineering challenge to do it safely and securely). We are contemplating adding another AGM 400AH topside (which will bring us to over 1000AH of house batteries), and giving up the precious storage space to do so. The Volt Start was a non-starter, and nobody had any idea how to make the engine idle at the 1500 RPM required to really throw a charge into the batteries. Anybody have any experience with batteries or how to get a good idle-up speed when stationary charging?

I must be missing something. The 400ah setup for the Zion is Lithium from all I have heard. The AGM is 182ah, although Roadtrek is inclined to call it a 400 amp battery in advertising.

What kind of power use are seeing per day? Do you have a battery monitor on it to see what you are using and what the actual state of charge is. If you don't, that would be a very good addition. Hardly anyone would normally need 1000ah of battery to be off grid a lot. We have 440ah with a compressor frig and could go 5+ days on just batteries with no engine charging or solar input.

Also remember that the high idle will give you some extra output, but like nearly all of the engine charging systems, you will not get anywhere near the rated output over any real length of time. The most you can realistically expect would be about 165 amps average output from the engine generator setup if it is a standalone. 1500 rpm is also very irritating to be around for longer term charging, but that is another discussion.

[booster]

If you do have AGM for the OEM battery, it will likely be a TPPL version of AGM, and will have a different charging profile and acceptance profile than the Lifelines, so you could have issues getting all of them full at the same time and sharing the load evenly on discharge.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by RedRoadTtrek

The major problem so far with the Zion is that RoadTrek didn't put enough battery capacity in to really boondock. The AGM 400AH battery is a great battery, but was constantly dropping below 12V and setting off the CO detector/low voltage alarm. We added another 200AH of Lifeline AGM batteries underneath (yes, an engineering challenge to do it safely and securely). We are contemplating adding another AGM 400AH topside (which will bring us to over 1000AH of house batteries), and giving up the precious storage space to do so. The Volt Start was a non-starter, and nobody had any idea how to make the engine idle at the 1500 RPM required to really throw a charge into the batteries. Anybody have any experience with batteries or how to get a good idle-up speed when stationary charging?

400AH is a lot of batteries, even in today's spoiled standard. People used to camp for a week with a 75AH wet cell.

What do you use your battery for? Microwave? Induction coooktop? TV? Aircon?

what kind of frige do you have?

How do you replenish your batteries each day?
How much solar do you have?

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by BBQ

400AH is a lot of batteries, even in today's spoiled standard. People used to camp for a week with a 75AH wet cell.
What do you use your battery for? Microwave? Induction coooktop? TV? Aircon?
what kind of frige do you have?
How do you replenish your batteries each day?
How much solar do you have?

How true. Bigger, more power, one slideout, more slidouts, one patty burgers, multidecks burgers, just “more” trend and “same or less” are left in the dust.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

How true. Bigger, more power, one slideout, more slidouts, one patty burgers, multidecks burgers, just “more” trend and “same or less” are left in the dust.

It appears that the Zion standard agm battery has about the same amps as my 05/04 190P 2 group 27 batteries.

booster: "I must be missing something. The 400ah setup for the Zion is Lithium from all I have heard. The AGM is 182ah, although Roadtrek is inclined to call it a 400 amp battery in advertising."

Bud

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

It appears that the Zion standard agm battery has about the same amps as my 05/04 190P 2 group 27 batteries.

booster: "I must be missing something. The 400ah setup for the Zion is Lithium from all I have heard. The AGM is 182ah, although Roadtrek is inclined to call it a 400 amp battery in advertising."

Bud

I would second that if the 182ah is correct for the Zion, and it would make the idea that the Zion is short on battery capacity more true compared to the mentioned 400ah.

Being AGM, if they are engine charging, they will likely not have an inclination to do the long charge times necessary to get totally full, so the batteries will be cycling in the 20-80% of capacity range, so 60% of capacity usable. That is about 110ah of capacity usable max, and with a 5cf compressor frig using nearly half of that much per day, it is is pretty easy to see running out in a day or slightly over.

Again if the guess is right, they would currently have 182ah plus 200 ah or 382ah, which would give 230ah usable at 60% usable. I would expect that would last 2-3 days if no charging done. If when a charge is not done, getting to less than 80% will also shorten the run time.

382ah will accept a lot of amps for a while, but at least the Lifeline part of them will not like more than about .4C if longer charge times are needed, due to heating of the batteries. I can't speak for the TPPL temp rise vs charge rate, but they claim low internal resistance so it may be higher without overheating the battery.

[RedRoadTtrek]

Originally Posted by RedRoadTtrek

The major problem so far with the Zion is that RoadTrek didn't put enough battery capacity in to really boondock. The AGM 400AH battery is a great battery, but was constantly dropping below 12V and setting off the CO detector/low voltage alarm. We added another 200AH of Lifeline AGM batteries underneath (yes, an engineering challenge to do it safely and securely). We are contemplating adding another AGM 400AH topside (which will bring us to over 1000AH of house batteries), and giving up the precious storage space to do so. The Volt Start was a non-starter, and nobody had any idea how to make the engine idle at the 1500 RPM required to really throw a charge into the batteries. Anybody have any experience with batteries or how to get a good idle-up speed when stationary charging?

The 2016 Zion uses the Northstar AGM400, which is an excellent battery. Peter Lange at RT, just before he retired, was pretty frank with me about the problem: Even with the Northstar battery, the capacity is not enough. He suggested adding batteries. I have since been able to add 2 Lifeline AGM's to bring it up another 200AH. This was a somewhat complicated installation to accomplish safely and securely in the only 2 remaining under-carriage open areas. Alas, this improvement turned out to be barely enough for a couple of days of disconnected boondocking with modest sun on the solar panel. We have decided to add another Northstar AGM400, which will have to go topside, as there is no more room underside. This will bring the total capacity to over 1000AH, and I think this will "solve" the problem. Before he departed for his retirement, Peter also said that, running below 12.0V risks damaging the battery. The hard news is that ya gotta get more AH...a LOT more, to make the Zion work right -- unless you want to be awakened (or have your camping neighbors) awakened at all hours of the night with the Volt-Start cranking up the engine (then having no good way to "up" the idle so that it really puts some power back into the battery). And, it turns out, that we will be able to ramp up to 1000+AH for less than the cost of buying and installing the obnoxious Volt-Start. But remember, I'm skilled, and can do a professional and responsible job of it without paying zillions to some inexperienced and under-skilled mechanic at the RV shop!

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by RedRoadTtrek

The 2016 Zion uses the Northstar AGM400, which is an excellent battery..................
I have since been able to add 2 Lifeline AGM's to bring it up another 200AH....................
We have decided to add another Northstar AGM400, which will have to go topside, as there is no more room underside. This will bring the total capacity to over 1000AH..........................

You'll end up with only a bit more than half the 1000AH you anticipate.

Northstar AGM 400 = 182 Ah
https://www.northstarbattery.com/pro...gm-400?p=51228

Folks confuse the model # AGM 400 with capacity 182AH.

TWO Northstar AGM 400's plus 200AH Lifeline batteries = 182AH + 182AH + 200AH = 564AH total capacity - not even close to 1000AH.