What could the scam be?

[markopolo]

Selling an RV can be entertaining for sure.

I'm dealing with someone who says he wants to buy my RV. One of my requirements is he inspects the RV first and if he wants to buy it then we all go to a branch of his bank where he purchases a bank draft payable to us.

Instead he said he has purchased a bank draft and says there's a phone number we can call to verify it. Then he says he can bring cash. The last thing I want is that much cash. A draft is traceable, legitimate money. He hasn't even seen the RV.

The thing is he just refuses to purchase a bank draft when we are present and that causes me concern. His excuse is that he "doesn't want to give the bank branch here his information". He's a client of the bank - they already have his "information".

So the deal is off.

I have read of scams where the phone number on the fake draft routes back to the scammers and everyone knows that fake drafts are a possibility.

What could the scam be? Theft of the RV?

[Ron J. Moore]

Marko, in view of all the scams we have heard about and read about, it would definitely raise the hairs on m neck!!! You set the way you want to do business, and what you say here, it is so easy to comply with - so what's his problem. I know you want to sell, but this "buyer" makes my alarm go off.

[g1g]

If he already has the draft the phone number and the draft could be fake. Like when someons sends a bank draft or money order for a sum larger than needed and says just give them the $$$ difference either cash or check. They in turn cash the check and by the time you find out their draft or Mo is fake you are out everything. That is as close as I can come up with.

When I was buying one I had an email telling me they had one in Californis but I was to send the "good faith money" to Ireland or someplace, than they would arrange me to get the RV and I can then send the rest of the money once I have it. Needless to say I said no way. I could have had a person there to check it out and pay them or their represenative but all they had were excuses. When they saw I wasn't going to budge they stopped contacting me.

[Mike]

Sounds like a variation on the over payment scam. The offer to bring cash is probably just a
mis-direction ploy to make you trust him more.
The real scam is probably closer to what g1g theorized. I doubt anyone would
want to steal something as large as a class C van as it wold be hard, but not impossible, to "fence",
unless they have a prepaid container ready to ship it overseas or someplace that it would be hard to
get it back if you could find it.
I'd say it's some sort of setup.
Dig in your heels about doing it your way.
It sounds safe for you and a potential buyer, and isn't unreasonable.
Did he give you the phone number? Google it. It might
give you a clue. (I google everything )

[markopolo]

I Google everything also Mike. It's very useful.

Some scams are readily identified. If this one is a scam then it almost got me.

I have his name and phone number supplied by him and I confirmed it with a reverse phone number lookup. He has phoned us and we have phoned him. A search for his email address did not turn up anything odd. IP lookups of the info in the email headers showed he was communicating from the part of Canada where he said he was.

The first email was very suspicious:

You have an interresting offer and I will give you 35000 right now if you accept my bid. I will be back at home wednesday and can meet you thursday. Excuse my english. Have a good day.

He is French Canadian and fluent in French. After much thought I did reply to it.

The second email seemed more real:

No, I come from Quebec, my english spoking is missing some pratice and it maybe possible to communicate by mail until we fix a meeting.

My name is (Name), (Phone Number)

I would like to know information about:
- Mecanical inspection ?
- How many owner ?
- Body, rust ?
- smoking ?

I will be at home wenesday and ready to meet you when you will be avalaible
My bank ask me serial number of the vr. for autorisation

I replied with more info.

Third email was similar:

Hello,
Some more questions:
- Any sign of pet ?
- tire condition (percent)
- ''auvent'' ?, motorized ? (auvent = awning)
For my family it will be better with a bed on the top, it is possible to fit ? (I took this to mean over the cab)
Not sure to understand about the braking system and used value it could have,I do not have intention on towing a car but I will appreciate if you let it go with the rv.
Thanks again !

I replied with more info and lots of photos and pointed out the problems with the RV like some rust that needs to be repaired on the electric steps etc.

Fourth email:

Thanks for all information,
Thats enough to hope that is good for the price...I will confirm to you the clock I will be at Moncton (tuasday) probably later today....
Have a good day !

Then I noted how payment should be made and repeated: The method of payment described above is very important to us. Please let us know if you agree with it. at the end of the email.

Fifth email:

Yes I will be happy if you ''de-winterize the RV and flush out all the plumbing so that it is ready for use.'' but if it's not too long, it could be better for my learning to do it together. For the water, yes it should be good to have for the travel.
- I'm calling my insurance to have the paper ready to fax on thusday.
- I will know more about my bank communication with our bank about how to proceed according to your suggestion.
Good day

Sixth email:

Hello,
I have a ''draft bank'' to your name and it's supposed to be verified by calling at my bank with the number on it. It shouldn't add any other delay (we must call before 16hre).
Good weekend !

That's when I replied that I couldn't accept that and that we'd all have to go to his bank branch here where I could see him purchase the draft.

Seventh email:

I can buy a draft bank to your bank with my draft bank. Real money it's real money whatever the bank it come from.
Give me feed back, I hope I did'nt buy my train ticket for that. Anyway, I have another one already spoted, please be serious because I'm serious.
Have a good weekend !

We phoned him and explained that we needed to be there when he purchased the draft then we would be sure it was real. He offered cash etc. but would not agree to purchasing the draft with us present. That makes me extremely suspicious.

If this is a scam (you can see how I still say if) then my guess is that something would have come up toward the closing of the deal like the draft was made out for more than the agreed amount or after inspecting the RV he would find something he didn't like and offer less but present the draft for the full amount and I have to give him some cash back or something. A bigger scam would be that something would delay his trip and he'd mail the draft to show good faith. We deposit it and then and emergency for him would prevent him proceeding with the purchase. He'd let us keep some money if we refunded most of it quickly. You can see I have a very active imagination

If it is not a scam then it could be that he's suspicious of me for wanting to go to the bank with him.........

I won't budge on the method of payment. Witnessing the buyer buy the bank draft is a sure way to know the money is real.

[markopolo]

Maybe a variation of this:

8. The scammer will very quickly send you a cheque, money order or bank draft
9. After you have confirmed that you have cashed the payment, the scammer will tell you that they have had a horrible life event--- a death or illness in the family, falling victim to a natural disaster, or even needing the money because of an unexpected pregnancy.
10. The scammer will ask you to refund the money right away to deal with their new life issues.
11. You will have a valid cheque, money order or bank draft sent to the scammer, feeling sorry for their situation. Because the shipping company doesn't exist, they never picked up the artwork and you don't have a problem with refunding the sale
12. The scammer receives your cheque and cashes it
13. Your bank realizes that the cheque, money order or bank draft from the scammer is a fake and removes the money from your account
14. You have now lost the money, with very little recourse for recovering it!

[booster]

The funny thing is that he wants you to call the number on the draft to confirm it. Tell him you intend to have your bank look up the number for his source and call them and not use the number on the draft. If it is phony, he will be gone quickly.

[Mike]

booster's idea makes sense. Should flush the guy if it's a scam.
I can't think of any good reason why he can't allow you to be present when he
buys the bank draft or certifies a cheque. Doesn't make sense.
Did you google the confirmation phone number, and is it at a legitimate bank or FI?
I'm always finding 800 numbers tha call my cell, and I rarely answer when I don't recognize the number.
EVEN if it's a legit number I can't think of why he doesn't want to do the cheque/draft thing with you present.

[markopolo]

Yes, I was thinking along those line at first. I set up an appointment with my bank. I also called his bank and got the number that I should call. So I was prepared.

BUT.......... Something just doesn't feel right. If he really was so interested in my RV that he just had to purchase a draft before even seeing the RV then my request to wait and purchase the draft here should not have been a deal breaker. His bank has a branch in town here - two minutes away.

I specifically asked him to let me know if he did not agree with how we wanted payment. But, instead he goes ahead and says he purchased a draft.

He planted many seeds in conversation - 3yr old twins, a father that might like to make the trip, working up North, 7 days on, 7 days off, work week starts on a Wednesday - deal was to be done on Tuesday, he got a pre-approved bank loan for it, All very normal things..............

I really suspect that the scam part of this scam had yet to be fully presented to me. I just don't understand why my request would be a deal breaker. At worst he'd think I'm overly cautious but instead he won't come and buy it now.

[Mike]

Put the shoe on the other foot for a minute.
Could he be suspicious of your intentions?
Maybe he thinks you're trying to pull something, by insisting that the bank
draft be purchased in your presence ? Maybe he's concerned you'll somehow
try to scoop his personal banking info or something?

The phone number checked out then? Could he think you're going to try to squeeze
a few more dollars out of him at payment time?
Perhaps he figures if he has the exact amount he wants to pay on the draft he shows up with,
it'll be easier to say, "sorry, this is it, it's all I can afford"??

[markopolo]

I'll probably have lingering doubts about this one for a while.......... Like you said maybe he's afraid of my intentions and I'm afraid of his. What a world.

He'd trust me to pick him up at a train station with a sack of cash though............ even more bizarre.

I should have just deleted that first email:

You have an interresting offer and I will give you 35000 right now if you accept my bid. I will be back at home wednesday and can meet you thursday. Excuse my english. Have a good day.

No questions about the RV and offering money. That created enough suspicion for me to remain extremely cautious with this one.

[Ron J. Moore]

Marko, you have the mystery of the month ongoing!!! To think, with all the RV's being sold, all over the place, that this character would come to you and make this offer. Never looked at your rig, full price without any negoiatations........I'd be taking 3 Prilosec's per day, ha!!

[Mike]

Mark, it's not just you. I've gotten myself into some grief with public "free buy and sell" websites.
Last year, I bought 2 very old (antique?) folding bikes. After a few days I realized they were too bulky
and heavy to be of any real use to us as "toweds" after all, and decided to try Kijiji. I'd had some good
luck selling my used wet cell coach battery on it.
Long story shorter, I got contacted by someone (a college kid as it turned out), and it started as him
seeming to be really interested in both, and I didn't know he was just a college kid fooling around. I thought
I had a sure sale, and he got me to divulge my whereabouts (obviously a mistake, and a "never do" in kijiji).
After that the "hems and haws" started over the price, and I realized then that he was just playing games
and that his intent was to bait me, "yes I want them, not at your price" trying to get me to almost "give them
away".
So I started googling, and as it turned out, his notes/emails gave me just enough info to actually figure out
where he (or his family) lived, and likely even his home phone number(I never called it, but was pretty sure it
was his).
This was all based on nicknames/pseudonyms/email ids he was using, and with a bit of deduction and logic,
I was able to track down his facebook page, too. That was the key to his identity. (Facebookers beware!!!!)
I then sent him a final "piss off" note and mentioned some of the info I'd found, and that was it. No more
emails or contact. End of.
Google can be a powerful friend in the real world.
There's probably another moral here somewhere but it eludes me at present.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by Mike

Put the shoe on the other foot for a minute. Could he be suspicious of your intentions? .......................................

That was it Mike. He actually was.
Booster - I think you thought it could be real also.

He called yesterday and had talked to his bank etc. and now knew that it was an ok way to proceed. Came with his Dad by train today. They thoroughly inspected it and agreed to buy it and...... we all went to the bank together. Then did the transfer etc. at the motor vehicle branch and then hit the road.

[Mike]

"Devil's Advocates R Us".
Glad it worked out.

[markopolo]

Now, believe it or not, the first Class B I inquired about today turned out to be a real (not imagined scam ).

$10,000 for a 2001 that looked like a Sportsmobile to me was too good to be true.



The ad:

2001 Sportsmen Dodge 3500 V8 360 - $10000 (New Brunswick)
Features: Penthouse (6'8'), single upper bed, queen bed down, three captains chairs, passenger seat swivels, seat belts throughout, combo toilet shower with privacy door, new Clarion radio with GPS and CD player

The reply:

Hi,
This RV is in perfect working condition, the interior and exterior look great, it is a non smoker vehicle,no leaks,no dents,no rust.
It hasn't been in any accidents, the title is clean and clear. The shipping is included in the Rv price. I am letting it go because I've moved to London,United Kingdom and importing it here it's too much. It is currently in Hazelton,BC in custody of a shipping company with all the papers necessary to sell, ready to be delivered to its new owner. I want to use eBay Vehicle Purchase Protection to close the deal because it is the safest way for both parties under these conditions.

The same reply can be found here: (a boat this time)
http://www.supraboats.com/bbs/showthrea ... #post53759

And another boat:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread. ... post596532

And a car:
http://www.vancouvermustangs.com/forums ... ost1102710

I flagged it as spam / prohibited on Craigslist but it is still there. Hopefully they'll look into asap.

Got to be cautious out there...........

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

That was it Mike. He actually was.
Booster - I think you thought it could be real also.

He called yesterday and had talked to his bank etc. and now knew that it was an ok way to proceed. Came with his Dad by train today. They thoroughly inspected it and agreed to buy it and...... we all went to the bank together. Then did the transfer etc. at the motor vehicle branch and then hit the road.

Glad it worked out for you! I was 50/50 on it I would guess. It is a shame that all the crooks and sleazebags of the world make the rest of us so paranoid!

[Johnny R]

Isn't it nice to have the sale complete
Using Kijiji I recently sold
1 canoe, 8 minutes after posting
1 GoldWing motorcycle
1 leather jacket
1 furnace and 1 hot tub
8 company cell phones when the plan matured
and I purchased, in the last two years
1 GoldWing motorcycle from 900 km away
1 Class B camper van from 1,200 km away
1 station wagon for my kids (they paid), and delivered it to Whitehorse YT
1 garage heater

This is so much fun!

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Johnny R

Isn't it nice to have the sale complete
Using Kijiji I recently sold
1 canoe, 8 minutes after posting
1 GoldWing motorcycle
1 leather jacket
1 furnace and 1 hot tub
8 company cell phones when the plan matured
and I purchased, in the last two years
1 GoldWing motorcycle from 900 km away
1 Class B camper van from 1,200 km away
1 station wagon for my kids (they paid), and delivered it to Whitehorse YT
1 garage heater

This is so much fun!

Holy crap!!!! You've got a PhD in Kijiji !!!

[Ron J. Moore]

Congrats Marko, really glad it worked out good for you. Safe travels.