What Choices Are There For No-Propane Class B's?

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

The issue on the gasoline Promasters is going to be getting heat and hot water without propane...

Any inverter big enough to power AC wouldn't have trouble with an on demand water heater like the Truma Combi (850W & 1700W modes). With B's Fresh and Gray limitations, taking a brief shower off batteries seems doable.

Heating in freezing conditions would be tricky, but Davydd's been doing it with effective insulation and lithium bank. For tourers, an all electric system, onan-free system could work. Adding the second alternator would probably be essential though. The 220 alternator doesn't have a lot to spare when you're running cab AC.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Transit

Any inverter big enough to power AC wouldn't have trouble with an on demand water heater like the Truma Combi (850W & 1700W modes). With B's Fresh and Gray limitations, taking a brief shower off batteries seems doable.

Heating in freezing conditions would be tricky, but Davydd's been doing it with effective insulation and lithium bank. For tourers, an all electric system, onan-free system could work. Adding the second alternator would probably be essential though. The 220 alternator doesn't have a lot to spare when you're running cab AC.

ARV uses diesel heating and hot water...

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

ARV uses diesel heating and hot water...

Right, my point was that heating water with batteries/inverter isn't necessarily an issue for all electric rigs. I mentioned Davydd's Alvar for the insulation and battery bank which would be more than sufficient for heating water. Running a space heater all night or his electric radiant floors might be trickier.

Originally Posted by Davydd

Our heat is blown out from under the kitchen galley baseboard located right at the foot of the bed directly across from the bathroom door. We have now slept in overnight temperatures below freezing more than a half dozen times all the way down to 5 degrees with water in the fresh water tank. We use sleeping bags and have been comfortable. In fact we either leave the heat off overnight or we turn it down as far as possible which is 54 degrees it seems. We used the electric radiant floor in a boondocking situation on that 5 degree night and the battery capacity was enough to handle it. We went down to 31% that night...

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Transit

Right, my point was that heating water with batteries/inverter isn't necessarily an issue for all electric rigs. I mentioned Davydd's Alvar for the insulation and battery bank which would be more than sufficient for heating water. Running a space heater all night or his electric radiant floors might be trickier.

He did use 560 amp hours that night so recharging is an issue unless you are driving every day and not boondocking...

[DCHitt]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

The issue on the gasoline Promasters is going to be getting heat and hot water without propane...

I get heat and hot water with my gasoline Promaster by just idling the engine. I also get AC directly from the engine AC compressor.

Most van manufactures have a "rear heat/AC" feature that allows after market evaporator/heater cores to be placed in the rear of the van. There are hot water heaters with heat exchangers and can be heated with engine coolent.

So instead of all the complicated stuff I heat/cool with gas indirectly through the engine. It also charges my batteries rather than running them down. I don't need extra generators, special batteries (I use AGM). or giant inverters.

The engine does make a little noise outside (less than a onan) but I can't really hear it in the rear of the van. I like the idea of making the van engine do all the work.

[booster]

Originally Posted by DCHitt

I get heat and hot water with my gasoline Promaster by just idling the engine. I also get AC directly from the engine AC compressor.

Most van manufactures have a "rear heat/AC" feature that allows after market evaporator/heater cores to be placed in the rear of the van. There are hot water heaters with heat exchangers and can be heated with engine coolent.

So instead of all the complicated stuff I heat/cool with gas indirectly through the engine. It also charges my batteries rather than running them down. I don't need extra generators, special batteries (I use AGM). or giant inverters.

The engine does make a little noise outside (less than a onan) but I can't really hear it in the rear of the van. I like the idea of making the van engine do all the work.

So you leave the engine running all night if it is cold or hot out?

[DCHitt]

Yes I do. I'm still looking for an "Auto Start" after market that might allow it to be shut down.

[Marley]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

The issue on the gasoline Promasters is going to be getting heat and hot water without propane...

Too right. Sprinter is working its way up the list due to a few reasons now.

Just saw the 2 previous threads after I made this post.

[gregmchugh]

Can you get by without propane for heat and hot water when boondocking in a gasoline van?

Sure you can but why do it when there are very efficient propane options as used in the Travato, Zion, and Aktiv that don't use much propane, the combined heat/water systems from Truma and Alde

[Marley]

Originally Posted by DCHitt

Yes I do. I'm still looking for an "Auto Start" after market that might allow it to be shut down.

Does the Promaster not have Auto Start on the key fob? I know they generally shut down after a set number of minutes.

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

He did use 560 amp hours that night so recharging is an issue unless you are driving every day and not boondocking...

That's why I said it might work for some tourers. Constant traveling also matches our personal typical travel style too, so an all electric promaster/Transit B would work for us if the family could fit.

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Can you get by without propane for heat and hot water when boondocking in a gasoline van?

Sure you can but why do it when there are very efficient propane options as used in the Travato, Zion, and Aktiv that don't use much propane, the combined heat/water systems from Truma and Alde

I think the biggest reason (for me at least) would be if I was converting the van myself. I agree that it wouldn't make a lot of sense for a manufacturer to go that route.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by NorthPotomac

Mike,

We think we'd like to keep it simple. We just don't see why we need two fuels (diesel and propane) when one should do. Also we think the no-propane option increases boondocking ability.

LOL. Eliminating propane does not make it "simple". It increases the cost and complexity significantly.

You need to decide what you want to get out of a coach, how you will use it, and how much you want to spend before we can give you any useful advice.

[DCHitt]

Originally Posted by Marley

Does the Promaster not have Auto Start on the key fob? I know they generally shut down after a set number of minutes.

Yes there are manufacture and after market "remote start" features. I didn't get it on mine because of the "auto-shutdown". Maybe RoadTrek's Volt Start will work?

[DCHitt]

Propane is:

Priced by the cubic foot of vapor, by the lb, or by the gallon.
Priced and taxed differently depending on how you use it.
Might really be Butane rather than Propane.

Once I watched the white truck, with the black hose on the back, fill my RV tank. First they put the ticket in the thing that will print out how many gallons and then they turned on the pump. Since the hose was black and the tank was white the hose was warmer so it was full of vapor. The meter read two gallons before he opened the valve to fill my tank because it had to compress all that vapor.

I just don't like the Propane industry. It is a byproduct fuel after all. So they control the market.

[rockymtnb]

Originally Posted by DCHitt

I get heat and hot water with my gasoline Promaster by just idling the engine. I also get AC directly from the engine AC compressor.

Did you consider the Espar B2 gasoline version of the D2 bunk heater for nighttime heating?

I can see idling for short term hot water or AC needs, but the heating demands are generally intermittent, with more heat often needed as the night progresses and outside temperatures drop.

[DCHitt]

Originally Posted by rockymtnb

Did you consider the Espar B2 gasoline version of the D2 bunk heater for nighttime heating?

I can see idling for short term hot water or AC needs, but the heating demands are generally intermittent, with more heat often needed as the night progresses and outside temperatures drop.

I may have to look into that one if I can't get the "auto-start" working right. I do get some "heat storage" in the hot water tank so it should not be starting too often.

It is a work in progress. In the mean time I just idle a lot.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

He did use 560 amp hours that night so recharging is an issue unless you are driving every day and not boondocking...

Actually Greg, the percent works off the usable 80% of the 800ah battery bank, so it would be 69% of 640ah or 442ah used. That would recharge in 2 hours of high idling and faster driving with the new Delco 320 alternator we installed.

However, we would not normally ever try to run our radiant floor heat overnight. It is not that great of a heat generator for the space anyway. It is mostly for underfoot comfort. That was a mistake on our part the very first night we stayed in the B at Advanced RV when it got down to 5 degrees F. Had we depleted the battery it would only have turned on the Autogen and surprised us.

There is a Rixen Home Comfort glycol reservoir under the hood with a 5,000BTU electric heater, but that is less efficient than the diesel fire 18,000BTU Espar heat exchanger. So it would make no sense trying electric. I can't remember but I think the electric module might be locked out unless on shore power now.

The radiant floor isn't locked out. We could still use it for temporarily heating the floor before getting out of bed. I'd love to put it on a timer for that but it isn't. Once you put shoes on you could turn it off. I don't know what the amperage draw is for the radiant floor heat but it does have settings from 1 to 10 so must be variable.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Actually Greg, the percent works off the usable 80% of the 800ah battery bank, so it would be 69% of 640ah or 442ah used. That would recharge in 2 hours of high idling and faster driving with the new Delco 320 alternator we installed.

However, we would not normally ever try to run our radiant floor heat overnight. It is not that great of a heat generator for the space anyway. It is mostly for underfoot comfort. That was a mistake on our part the very first night we stayed in the B at Advanced RV when it got down to 5 degrees F. Had we depleted the battery it would only have turned on the Autogen and surprised us.

There is a Rixen Home Comfort glycol reservoir under the hood with a 5,000BTU electric heater, but that is less efficient than the diesel fire 18,000BTU Espar heat exchanger. So it would make no sense trying electric. I can't remember but I think the electric module might be locked out unless on shore power now.

The radiant floor isn't locked out. We could still use it for temporarily heating the floor before getting out of bed. I'd love to put it on a timer for that but it isn't. Once you put shoes on you could turn it off. I don't know what the amperage draw is for the radiant floor heat but it does have settings from 1 to 10 so must be variable.

Understood, the main point was that using electrical power to get heat and hot water is relatively inefficient compared to using diesel or propane powered devices at least when you need lots of btu's...

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Understood, the main point was that using electrical power to get heat and hot water is relatively inefficient compared to using diesel or propane powered devices at least when you need lots of btu's...

That I agree.