Unicorn hunting - Assistance needed

[gregmchugh]

You missed the point so let me make it a little less subtle...

For some reason, you felt it was necessary to add the last sentence deriding Roadtrek when it had no direct relevance to your comment which I guess you find to be very clever but it gets pretty old when it happens over and over and over. Maybe time to come up with some new material...

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Yes you do since so many take what Roadtrek says as gospel. My comment was directed to the fact it was quoted in this thread Roadtrek never said anything about cold temperatures with the assumption all was well. Do you agree?

You're certainly at liberty to say whatever you choose, but please don't misrepresent what I said. I never suggested that Roadtrek's silence regarding acceptable lithium temperature parameters warrants any assumption that "all was well". My comment was, (and is) that if the -4degF threshold is applicable to their lithium batteries, it's remarkable that they wouldn't make that clear in their owners manual and include a disclaimer in their six year warranty.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

........


If sustained temps lower than -4F ruins lithium batteries, why aren't we hearing multitudes of war stories from Leaf/Volt and other EV owners that leave their cars outside in northern climates during winter months? Some of them may be plugged in, but all of them? What about the lithium batteries in cell phones that are left in vehicles overnight in arctic conditions?

If you follow the EV media you will discover that the Leaf has had very short battery life since they chose not to fully climate control their batteries. The only "war stories" you would ever hear about is if the batteries explode or burn as in the Samsung phones today.



- - Mike
2013 Airstream Interstate from 2012 Sprinter 3500 tall & long

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

You're certainly at liberty to say whatever you choose, but please don't misrepresent what I said. I never suggested that Roadtrek's silence regarding acceptable lithium temperature parameters warrants any assumption that "all was well". My comment was, (and is) that if the -4degF threshold is applicable to their lithium batteries, it's remarkable that they wouldn't make that clear in their owners manual and include a disclaimer in their six year warranty.

I didn't miss any points. All I said was Roadtrek was not the sharpest knife in this technology. This is what I responded to from you. You pretty much accepted Roadtrek's actions and were assuming "all as well" in citing them and no where did you say "remarkable", and you accepted excessive 6 amp/hr parasitic drain as gospel unavoidable fact.

Typically however, in an RV application, the conventional wisdom when there is no shore side power is to shut the batteries down to eliminate parasitic drain but the consequence is that there is no longer any heater support. For example, nowhere in the Roadtrek manuals is there any caveat regarding the potential for battery damage in very cold conditions. It merely says that after turning the batteries back on, it may take a little time for them to warm up to a temperature that permits charging. Roadtrek offers a six year warranty on their lithium battery installations. You'd think that if freezing was a real peril, there would be some disclaimer language in the warranty. Even then, how would they be able to prove that it was this condition that caused premature failure or diminished capacity?

Was that not implying that if Roadtrek wasn't concerned then nothing would be amiss and apparently believing it with your continued insistence in this thread? Add the parasitic drain issue, the after the lithium ion introduction of a kludge AGM battery, and the need to shut down battery banks, you have a lot of dull knives.

Sorry gregmchugh, this is not a Roadtrek "no whine zone" forum. Was the above clear to you too?

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Sorry gregmchugh, this is not a Roadtrek "no whine zone" forum. Was the above clear to you too?

I don't have Ecotreks so I guess I don't care one way or another what Roadtrek decides to document and what they don't. Roadtrek will do what Roadtrek decides to do. On occasion I do attempt to understand their designs and the implications for owners in order to help them out but that is just a hobby of mine.

You do continue to miss the point of my comment above.

You, of course, are free to say anything you want here about Roadtrek. Just as I am free to, at times, discuss the differences in the Roadtrek and ARV electrical system designs. These type of discussions by me and others have caused you on many occasions to get incensed and you communicate your annoyance frequently.

The point of my post above was simply that at times I find some of things you post to be annoying, in this case your dig at Roadtrek, which plays nicely to the audience here but to me these clever little negative comments people make about Roadtrek are getting pretty old and annoying. Not that Roadtrek doesn't deserve criticism when justified for specific issues but the one liners are getting old to me. But this is an open forum so continue saying whatever you want, just accept that someone might get annoyed on occasion.

I guess I don't understand why you might feel that it is OK for you to express annoyance with other peoples comments but it may not be appropriate for others to express annoyance with some of your comments. Or maybe you are not expressing annoyance with my expressed annoyance, I guess that is not clear to me...

[booster]

Personally, I think Roadtrek probably does know about the temp issues, but they don't mention anything because of marketing, as it might hurt sales if customers saw that information. There are quite a few things that are similar in their past. It appears they prefer to get the sales, and then hope any given customer won't notice the problems, or in this case be in the longer term cold. If the problem does show up, that's when they will deal with it, to the total surprise of the customer.

[gregmchugh]

On the Roadtrek Owners Group I have been putting together some summaries of how to manage the Ecotrek battery modules under various scenarios. One of the Roadtrek employees who happens to be a member of the group has been feeding these summaries back to engineering and they have reviewed them and find them to be pretty accurate with only some minor updates to some numbers.

I recently put together a draft of a section on managing Ecotreks in cold weather based on some info owners received from Roadtrek last winter and on my sometimes limited understanding of the design. This draft is being sent along to engineering for review. Feel free to join the group to follow the info I receive from them.

Will they ever distribute this info themselves? Who knows but I would hope so in order to insure owners have good guidance that comes directly from the source and not second hand from someone outside the company...

Anyone who is in the Roadtrek Owners Group should feel free to repost my summaries here but I don't plan to do it myself. I spend enough time on the internet already, not much interested in doing much more than I do right now. Posting the info here would just lead to lots of additional time needed to support the discussion which would only be useful to a very limited audience of Ecotrek owners who are participating on this forum. Whether you like it or not, internet forums are not attracting a large audience anymore...

[BBQ]

.

Pleasure-Way, which have gone full lithium this year, tells their customers to remove the batteries for the winter storage if the temp drops below -15C. Their batteries are inside the coach; the access is easy.

Have you looked at the RT batteries?

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

Pleasure-Way, which have gone full lithium this year, tells their customers to remove the batteries for the winter storage if the temp drops below -15F. Their batteries are inside the coach; the access is easy.

Have you looked at the RT batteries?

Not too easy to remove the Ecotrek modules, they are in a battery rack bolted under the van. Maybe doable but not easy...

[CuStOm]

I feel completely thread jacked.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

If you follow the EV media you will discover that the Leaf has had very short battery life since they chose not to fully climate control their batteries. The only "war stories" you would ever hear about is if the batteries explode or burn as in the Samsung phones today.

I know that Leafs have been experiencing shorter battery life than expected but I think this has less to do with temperature extremes than their battery management depth of discharge parameters. To maximize the mileage from their relatively small capacity, I think their their batteries are subjected to a higher depth of discharge than is normally implemented which inevitably degrades battery life.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by CuStOm

I feel completely thread jacked.

When you go Unicorn hunting you find lots of other stuff along the way I guess...

I apologize to you for my off topic comments...

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

Pleasure-Way, which have gone full lithium this year, tells their customers to remove the batteries for the winter storage if the temp drops below -15F. Their batteries are inside the coach; the access is easy.

It's a trade off between convenience and useful storage space. Plus, on the somber flip side - anything made more convenient for you to remove makes it more convenient for thieves to remove. Thieves today looking at an RV might be more interested in boosting the hi-tec batteries than the catalytic converter.

When Pleasure-Way makes reference to -15F, are they describing ambient temperature or battery temperature? If it's battery temperature, -15F is substantially colder than the -4F threshold cited by other suppliers which is puzzling considering that while the BMS may differ, the battery chemistry is pretty much the same.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

...

When Pleasure-Way makes reference to -15F, are they describing ambient temperature or battery temperature? If it's battery temperature, -15F is substantially colder than the -4F threshold cited by other suppliers which is puzzling considering that while the BMS may differ, the battery chemistry is pretty much the same.

My apologies.

The temp should read -15C, not -15F.
(PW is a Canadian company)
(I have edited my original post)

The above is referring to the PW recommendation of removal for winter storage if the temp drops below -15C.


For operations, most manufacturers recommend:

Li-ion

Charge temperature
0°C to 45°C (32°F to 113°F)

Discharge temperature
–20°C to 60°C (–4°F to 140°F)

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by BBQ

My apologies.

The temp should read -15C, not -15F.
(PW is a Canadian company)
(I have edited my original post)

The above is referring to the PW recommendation of removal for winter storage if the temp drops below -15C.


For operations, most manufacturers recommend:

Li-ion

Charge temperature
0°C to 45°C (32°F to 113°F)

Discharge temperature
–20°C to 60°C (–4°F to 140°F)

Thanks for the clarification. It's interesting that PW uses an even more conservative threshold of +5F rather than -4F.

It's a no brainer that if removing batteries for storage is contemplated that having them above the chassis is preferable, but the storage tradeoff is significant. For example, each Roadtrek lithium battery is 16L 13H 7W. Four of them involves quite a bit of cubic.

That said, if Roadtrek's installation of their lithiums is typical of general RV lithium locations, IMO, yanking below chassis batteries in a class B is not realistic.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Was that not implying that if Roadtrek wasn't concerned then nothing would be amiss and apparently believing it with your continued insistence in this thread? Add the parasitic drain issue, the after the lithium ion introduction of a kludge AGM battery, and the need to shut down battery banks, you have a lot of dull knives.

No, it was not implying any such thing. You could profit from reviewing the concept of conditional expressions. I have never said nor indeed even implied that Roadtrek's reticence regarding lithium battery temperature issues makes it a non-issue. In any event I think I'm better off with a battery warranty that has no temperature reservations or disclaimers than one that includes them.

Your post makes it pretty clear that your chronic dissing of Roadtrek provides you with some gut level catharsis which is unusual since your posts on other subjects are objective and informative.

I hardly need you to remind me of the limitations involved in Roadtrek's technical side. I own one and adjust to it accordingly. Their system is not crafted at the level ARV accomplishes, but it's still a hell of a lot better than no system and at a substantially more affordable cost. Yes, there are some dull knives but what you can't seem to acknowledge is that "dull knives" can still cut the mustard.

Perhaps, it devolves to a difference in perspective. You seem to place a high priority on the build quality and technical execution of your RV. I don't discount such criteria but I am more inclined to view the RV as a conveyance, an appliance, so to speak, to take you to where you want to go. You seem to need a five star coach to satisfy yourself. Three stars will do just fine for me, but alas, it seems like for you, if it isn't five star, it warrants no star at all.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by CuStOm

I have been doing a plethora of research on purchasing a Class B that is truly designed and equipped for harsh winter camping. Staying in the ski resort parking lots without hookups type of camping and have a functioning water system and toilet. Needs excellent insulation, thermal windows, tanks that are enclosed and heated by the furnace (not pads), heated storage, etc...

Does it exist?

We came from a 2011 F350 with a Chalet camper and it worked excellent in the snow but are really wanting to move to a van.

Cross posted on RV.net too...

Thanks for your time and knowledge.
Cheers,
Keith

I can see the thread went off the rails. FYI - Bringing up lithiums and cold temperatures will lead to a dog fight. Or worse, a cat fight.

The big issue for winter camping is insulation and keeping freeze-prone systems within that insulated space(s) and/or providing supplemental heat like heat-wrap, heat pads, etc. using 12V.

In Europe, it seems winter use is very popular, so there seem to be Class Bs over there that are insulated with systems protected from freezing. But choices over here are not so good.

Going custom with a company like ARV or semi-custom with someone like Sportsmobile is one way to get what you want. As for new, IIRCC, the new Hymer Aktiv is supposedly well insulated, but not sure about the systems. Just on the market, so no one has really picked one apart.

Then there is the "buy new or used" and DIY custom (or maybe find a shop that will do it for you). Read James' posts on FitRV.com aobut winterizing their Travato and you will get an idea of what is involved. There may be more blogs out there on the subject if you Google.

[CuStOm]

The word lithium never arrived via my fingertips!

[tmshih]

Dunno if this completely fits the bill, but the Hall GTC (Grand Touring Coach) from the 1970's appear to be built with a completely insulated fiberglass shell for extreme weather conditions. You'll have to do more research on how the plumbing and tanks are situated, but from the description they used top notch materials including copper and abs piping.

Hall GTC (Grand Touring Coach)

1973 HALL GRAND TOURING COACH

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by tmshih

Dunno if this completely fits the bill, but the Hall GTC (Grand Touring Coach) from the 1970's appear to be built with a completely insulated fiberglass shell for extreme weather conditions. You'll have to do more research on how the plumbing and tanks are situated, but from the description they used top notch materials including copper and abs piping.

Hall GTC (Grand Touring Coach)

1973 HALL GRAND TOURING COACH

I like the backup rope starter option on the generator...