Unicorn hunting - Assistance needed

[CuStOm]

Originally Posted by markopolo

With nights at around 20F, a 20lb propane BBQ type tank would last us around 4 days in the well insulated Bigfoot Class C I had. It was a lot easier to go get the portable propane tank filled then to pack up and move the C just for propane.

Have you considered any more winter capable rigs like this:

We've looked at the Regency and its the best newer Class C going for us. We were just hoping to go Class B. The Regency's are also hard to find used, not many out there and none nearby. I am quite amazed that none of Triple E's newer products even come close to what they used to do for winter capable made in Canada RV's.

Booster - Mine was their truck camper. Their new website sucks and doesn't speak much to it. You can look on Truck Camper Magazines website to see some older reviews.

[tmshih]

Another option that has a good reputation for cold winter camping is Oliver Trailers

Oliver Travel Trailers | Fiberglass Travel Trailers

They are built with double hulled insulated fiberglass hulls with everything mounted within the heated insulated space.

[CuStOm]

Originally Posted by tmshih

Another option that has a good reputation for cold winter camping is Oliver Trailers

Oliver Travel Trailers | Fiberglass Travel Trailers

They are built with double hulled insulated fiberglass hulls with everything mounted within the heated insulated space.

Thanks for your recommendation but pulling a trailer in the snow on mountain passes up to ski sucks. I did that before I got my truck camper.

[tmshih]

What about something like this Canadian Class C. Adventurer LP seems to have a reputation for building rugged cold weather RV's.


2009 Adventurer 24DB, Class C RV For Sale in Chilliwack, British Columbia | O'Connor RV RV3876 | RVT.com - 116342

[avanti]

I converted our 3-season GWV Legend to a 4-season van:
The key is that the van is heated using an Espar D5-based hydronic system. This means that I have continuously-circulating hot-water available. I borrowed a technique used by ARV in which the glycol lines are extended to run parallel to the water and drain pipes and then bundled in insulation:
IMG_6059.jpg
IMG_6065.jpg
IMG_6265.jpg
In a few places, I used 12VDC heat strips. This was minimal, though.
IMG_6268.jpg
Finally, I insulated all exposed tanks with extruded foam insulation sheets. The tanks also have heating pads as well as glycol lines along their sides.
IMG_6215.jpg

[CuStOm]

I just discovered Adventurer today on a recommendation over on rv.net. I wonder what it takes to import an RV from Canada. Have some research to do....
Cheers

[CuStOm]

Originally Posted by avanti

I converted our 3-season GWV Legend to a 4-season van

How well has it worked out and in what conditions?

[Davydd]

We went a full week on the road with temperatures always below freezing day and night and down to 0 deg. F. with fresh water in the tank in our Advanced RV and without shore power.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by CuStOm

How well has it worked out and in what conditions?

I only did this a year ago, and didn't get a chance to do any really cold camping last winter, so data are limited. That said, it certainly works great in below-freezing but not frigid conditions. Although I haven't pushed the envelope yet, I have little doubt that it will be effective at plus-or-minus single digits. I added around 30' of coolant hose, so the coverage is pretty thorough. And, if I DID miss anything, it is bound to be pretty local and fixable. (Plus, DavyDD's experience with a similar setup is very encouraging.) The Espar certainly is capable of cranking out sufficient BTUs. I should add that the van is also pretty thoroughly insulated. It is definitely great not to have to worry about cold snaps while traveling.

The biggest question is how long I could boondock without power in sub-zero conditions. Last winter, I forgot to measure the total current draw from the electric heating strips and pads (I can't do it now, since much of it is thermostatically controlled). I have 440aH of battery, so I am pretty sure I could make it through a night, and my second-engine alternator will replenish the power after a moderate drive. Sitting put would be a different matter. I would either need shore power or would probably be forced to run my propane genset (which I am considering eliminating). I also need to experiment to see whether the electric parts are really necessary--they may prove to be overkill.

I definitely have to plan some adventure camping next winter.

[nexus6]

Keith, a lot depends on how long you're planning for. Is this a weekend type thing or are you thinking a week or more. For a week with no driving you're going to need a generator to keep your electrical system charged unless you go with a massive Lithium pack. Solar makes very little power in the winter due to the sun angle and snow cover will kill it completely. I'm planning on bringing a small portable Yamaha (maybe with a propane conversion) to top up the batteries on stays longer than 3 days.

I'd definitely look at something custom like a Sportsmobile. Production RV's are made more with the summer in mind (not to mention the lack of gear storage). If you buy used budget for some upgrades for winter use.

When insulating look at a non moisture absorbing insulation like Thinsulate (available from Hein at Impact 3D). A friend managed to convince Sportsmobile to do his van with Thinsulate instead of their usual cotton batting (gets wet and stays wet, cotton kills etc etc).

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Davydd

If lithium ion batteries go below -4 deg. F. they can be damaged permanently. Trying to charge them below freezing can diminish their capacity greatly. One thing you can't do is leave a lithium ion battery sitting out in -4 temperatures unused for an extended period. You have to be in a heated space, in use with charged batteries or plugged into shore power. That has to be carefully monitored in climates like Minnesota but would be a non-issue in the south.

With a -4degF limit, how do electric vehicle batteries survive that are outside during the winter in Minnsota, North Dakota et al?

If memory serves, hasn't Tesla said that the low limit for their batteries to remain undamaged is -22F?

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

With a -4degF limit, how do electric vehicle batteries survive that are outside during the winter in Minnsota, North Dakota et al?



If memory serves, hasn't Tesla said that the low limit for their batteries to remain undamaged is -22F?

Nearly all production EVs, including Tesla, have battery heating system to handle cold climates. The hitch is they have to be plugged into a power source to survive. You can't leave your Tesla parked at the airport in Minneapolis or Chicago for a week without power. It will damage the batteries. I asked that specific question during a recent Tesla test drive.


- - Mike
2013 Airstream Interstate from 2012 Sprinter 3500 tall & long

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Nearly all production EVs, including Tesla, have battery heating system to handle cold climates. The hitch is they have to be plugged into a power source to survive. You can't leave your Tesla parked at the airport in Minneapolis or Chicago for a week without power. It will damage the batteries. I asked that specific question during a recent Tesla test drive.


- - Mike
2013 Airstream Interstate from 2012 Sprinter 3500 tall & long

I wonder if there is a disclaimer in the Tesla warranty that addresses this.

In any event, there is a significant difference between a Tesla and a lithium battery equipped RV At the frigid airport, the owner doesn't disconnect the battery so that until the battery BMS shuts it down, I assume that the protective heaters would continue to function to keep the battery above its freezing point, whatever that is.

Typically however, in an RV application, the conventional wisdom when there is no shore side power is to shut the batteries down to eliminate parasitic drain but the consequence is that there is no longer any heater support. For example, nowhere in the Roadtrek manuals is there any caveat regarding the potential for battery damage in very cold conditions. It merely says that after turning the batteries back on, it may take a little time for them to warm up to a temperature that permits charging. Roadtrek offers a six year warranty on their lithium battery installations. You'd think that if freezing was a real peril, there would be some disclaimer language in the warranty. Even then, how would they be able to prove that it was this condition that caused premature failure or diminished capacity?

If sustained temps lower than -4F ruins lithium batteries, why aren't we hearing multitudes of war stories from Leaf/Volt and other EV owners that leave their cars outside in northern climates during winter months? Some of them may be plugged in, but all of them? What about the lithium batteries in cell phones that are left in vehicles overnight in arctic conditions?

[BBQ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEPBkjmS2uE

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by BBQ

I don't think a 20% drop is very different for flooded cell vehicle batteries for a month of non use. There are some variables here, temperature for one.

Unlike flooded call and AGMs I've never read any correlation between state of charge and the low temp damage threshold for lithium batteries. I wonder if there is.

[Davydd]

I guess you can discuss Tesla all you want. They aren't RV batteries. As for Roadtrek, ask them. They haven't been the sharpest knife in the drawer on this technology.

I have lithium ion batteries and have gone through two winters. I have winter camped as I said for a solid week in boondocking conditions when the ambient temperature was always below freezing 24/7. It took that long to reach warm temperatures going to the southwest from Cleveland, OH with a side trip to Minnesota. On my last day in freezing temperatures I woke up to 0 degrees F. in a Cracker Barrel parking lot in Gallup, NM. I pretty much know how it all works from experience, not conjecture.

Advanced RV confirmed the the cold conditions last winter and passed it on to me. I emailed Elite Power Solutions, the distributors of my GBS lithium ion batteries, to corroborate and got this response which I take as good advice. So, if anyone wants to experiment if you can go colder let me know. I'm not. If you have any, "Yeah buts", put your money where you type and then say it.

Hi David,

Temperatures below -4°F (-20°C) will cause the electrolyte to freeze which will cause permanent damage to the batteries if it does not kill them entirely. If storage temperatures will go below -4°F then you will need to heat the batteries to above -4°F to prevent damage to the battery. There is no exception to this.

Regards,
R S
Applications Engineer
Elite Power Solutions LLC

Keep in mind we are talking about the battery temperature not the ambient temperature. I can go into great detail about that as I have the ability to monitor the temperature of each cell of every battery.

[CuStOm]

Excellent feedback everyone. Thanks for taking the time to provide input.

We're traditionally using it for weekends. Arrive Friday night and leave Sunday evening. No hookups and no driving between arrival and departure. We usually do one week long ski trip per winter but that involves driving. Stationary time durations are usually the same.
Cheers
Keith

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Davydd

::
As for Roadtrek... They haven't been the sharpest knife in the drawer on this technology.
::

[gregmchugh]

I need to keep repeating to myself...

"Do not mention a unique feature in the Roadtrek design not available in the ARV battery system even when inane derisive comments are made about Roadtrek. There is a risk of raising the blood pressure of older ARV owners when they read this info leading to a possible brain aneurism and a stroke.".

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

I need to keep repeating to myself...

"Do not mention a unique feature in the Roadtrek design not available in the ARV battery system even when inane derisive comments are made about Roadtrek. There is a risk of raising the blood pressure of older ARV owners when they read this info leading to a possible brain aneurism and a stroke.".

Yes you do since so many take what Roadtrek says as gospel. My comment was directed to the fact it was quoted in this thread Roadtrek never said anything about cold temperatures with the assumption all was well. Do you agree?