Underhood versus Onan

[rowiebowie]

Well roadbot, there you have it. Two forum authorities on the subject have weighed in. Even though they each added their under-hood generators, the Roadtrek factory installed (or not) probably uses similar parts.

If you're interested in the 210P, just consider the lack of remaining Roadtrek factory warranty and price your offer accordingly. But if you like the idea of an under-hood generator, do not let it stop you. However, test all systems before purchase as it would be an "as-is" purchase.

Good luck, and check back to let us know what you finally buy.
.

[roadbot]

Thanks again to everyone for advice. I picked up 2016 210P 12K miles, UHG/solar/ 2 AGMs after striking a deal that allows a budget to repair anything that might be amiss. Dealer thought the GM 3 year had expired, but local GM says first title 12/2016 so good until this year end. Refrig, propane stove, toilet and sofa bed looked unused with seat belts still hanging there, from carpet pristine. Everything seems functional other than depleted AGM, dealer agreed to replace with new. Once home, I found an executed 3rd party 5 year extended MH warranty, transferrable for $100, in with papers in the RT pouch! Dealer just must have wanted this unit gone, but also knew no warranty GM nor RT made it a hard sell now. Boy, is this a far cry from our 1997 Dodge 190P (which is doing just fine other than age and technology)-- on one hand in quality and other hand features/plushness.

This 2016 so much more plush and and geared to folks with more money, on other hand the workmanship is way down the ladder from the 1997 which at this point is more like our hippie van-- maybe perfect now for Burning Man. The 2016 has low end vinyl laminated cabinetry, loose original screws on cabinetry and even the solar controller, sawdust still in cabinets.

So thanks again for advice everyone, you all do RT community a great service.

So now to figure out how the a MPTT solar controller and sinewave inverter work with UHG, manual doesn't even mention them nor is there any original vending manufacturer stuff in with all the other manuals etc. Oh well, internet search should help.

[CrossfitPaddle]

I looked at one about like yours (great shape it looks like) & noted many problems like the "contact" paper finish that was wrinkling (not a good look) and the hard use effect on the seat inside the second door. The price (before the bankruptcy fall 201 was $80K! Way too much given the fit & finish problems. Still a very well designed RV. Hope it works well for you!

[Doneworking]

Roadbot, thanks for your posts. We bought a 1996 RT 190P new and enjoyed it for years. Later, we bought a 2007 RT 210P specked out to our order that we still own and love. Your last post about the quality of the 97 190 are just exactly what we experienced with our 96. Our 2007 210P has the fit and finish that is IMO equivalent to our old 190.

We find that the more technology and "spiffy" we have the less we enjoy the camping experience. That will sound strange to most folks I suspect but when you mostly boondock like we do the technology just doesn't seem important. What is important are systems that the average guy with a little skill like me can keep up and repair when necessary.

It is wonderful to have the memories of those older RTs, Pleasure Ways, etc. We still like to think of our RT as a big tent with a hot shower and side walls to keep the bears out!

There seems to be an inverse relationship in all this. Does older vs newer mean an increase in technology and a decrease in quality? Maybe?

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Doneworking

There seems to be an inverse relationship in all this. Does older vs newer mean an increase in technology and a decrease in quality? Maybe?

Of course it does, but only for marques which have chosen to sacrifice quality for volume. But correlation does not prove causation. Technology always increases--that is why our lives are better than in neolithic times. But there is no law of nature that says that quality always gets worse--with or without new technology. If Roadtrek and Airstream have been skimping on build quality (and they both certainly have for years now), that is a choice that they make.

You seem to be suggesting that technology causes reductions in quality. If anything the opposite is true. Better technologies make it easier to maintain quality. Of course, technology can be used in many ways, and it can be used well or poorly. But, if technology lets me run my A/C while boondocking in the Arizona summer, I say bring it on.

As for whether one prefers the good old days, that is a matter of taste. Technology DOES tend to increase complexity. If one values simplicity over comfort and convenience, that is fair enough. Lots of people are satisfied with peeing into a bottle. I do not judge.

[booster]

Interesting comments on the technology vs simplicity vs quality vs enjoyment. I think every one of us would see that different is varying ways.


I would agree that invisible systems make camping more pleasant, but I don't think they need to be less technologically advanced to be that way. If a fancy system that does everything for you is completely reliable and accurate all the time, it is probably less intrusive in your camping than a very basic system. Unfortunately, many of the integrated systems so far have caused more hassle than they have saved, with Roadtrek probably the poster child as an example of that.


Bottom line, I think, is that the quality/reliability of the any of the systems probably would be a better predictor of satisfaction while camping than technology level.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

..............
You seem to be suggesting that technology causes reductions in quality. If anything the opposite is true. ………

I agree. Most technologies follow S-curves from early adapters through maturity, see the video. I believe that Li batteries in the RV world are still early in that cycle, still too expensive for me to justify, so, I will wait and enjoy camping without added complexity. Quality can certainly suffer early in the S-curve, Roadtrek’s Li effort is a good example, there were some hiccups.

From manufacturing perspective quality often results from using advanced manufacturing technologies. In NA bulk RV manufacturing companies are smaller or larger but still closed to mom and pop shops. For them moving into advanced manufacturing technologies could be too difficult by either lack of funds or limited understanding of benefits. For example, computer aided manufacturing is still not common but quality gains would be clear. We wouldn’t have cars at current level of qualities without automation. Unfortunately, staplers are still common in the RV world.

In my conversion plastic HDPE panels were cut on CNC, aluminum extrusions were cut on NC saws at the 80/20 factory. All of these components assembled perfectly with fit and finish unattainable using radial or miter saws, routers or even staplers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm1v7ll2iMk

[Bud]

"Quality can certainly suffer early in the S-curve, Roadtrek’s Li effort is a good example, there were some hiccups."

I'm kind of doubting that roadtrek's 'effort' is a good example. I think that it is a horrible example of any kind of reasonable 'effort'. The 'hiccups' revolved around the 'effort' to shut up employees and customers and pay the wendland's to...................... Rather than have a viable, reliable,...... This was Not rocket science. How to use a li battery to power stuff was not new. Individuals pulled it off, not just Tesla running a vehicle's ac.

Bud

[roadbot]

To be clear on what I posted, 100% happy with the tech advances, just disappointed at the cutting corners on cabinet materials and final interior finish and fitting. Plain silly to not bother tightening screws and vacuuming sawdust. I can only imagine what the quality workers long with the company must have thought to see their product's fit and finish become secondary. I worked for a great company back in the 1980's only to leave after 15 years out of frustration with new management that focused on numbers rather than quality product and customer service. It did not work well for them, and it was sad to then see the rank and file pay the price in the long run. In any case, really glad for the UHG vs Onan, which started this thread. And nice touch of having the spare longer fan belt. Fortunately the power system works fine after all, and I am sure I can find ways to deal with poor quality fit and finish.

Regards

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Bud

"Quality can certainly suffer early in the S-curve, Roadtrek’s Li effort is a good example, there were some hiccups."

I'm kind of doubting that roadtrek's 'effort' is a good example. I think that it is a horrible example of any kind of reasonable 'effort'. The 'hiccups' revolved around the 'effort' to shut up employees and customers and pay the wendland's to...................... Rather than have a viable, reliable,...... This was Not rocket science. How to use a li battery to power stuff was not new. Individuals pulled it off, not just Tesla running a vehicle's ac.

Bud

Agree, probably not the best example. Tesla pumped a lot of money to develop reliable Li power for automotive use and Roadtrek released partly developed product.

I believe that Li in the RV world is still in early adapters phase. For example, my Morningstar MPPT45 and Magnum MMS1000 chargers don’t have Li charge profile, have custom voltage profiles which could be adapted to any Li batteries. I would need to figure out how to terminate float charge. The same units are still sold today without Li charge controls.

Being expensive is another indicator of early stage even though Li batteries in other applications like smartphones or cameras are matured.

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Agree, probably not the best example. Tesla pumped a lot of money to develop reliable Li power for automotive use and Roadtrek released partly developed product.

I believe that Li in the RV world is still in early adapters phase. For example, my Morningstar MPPT45 and Magnum MMS1000 chargers don’t have Li charge profile, have custom voltage profiles which could be adapted to any Li batteries. I would need to figure out how to terminate float charge. The same units are still sold today without Li charge controls.

Being expensive is another indicator of early stage even though Li batteries in other applications like smartphones or cameras are matured.

I don't think the whole lithium thing will get out of the phase in stage until the manufacturers can decide what works. Currently we have setups with very careful control of full and lowest charge, charge rate, voltage control, full shutoffs, heaters, etc and we also have drop ins that say they can use standard AGM charge profiles, no cutoff, 100% of capacity, no temp issues. How is anyone who is shopping going to know which is right? These kinds of issues are critical in an UG application that can charge at very high rates and never go to float.

[Davydd]

I'm bemused. Because Roadtrek eff'd up doesn't mean lithium ion batteries aren't ready for prime time. I guess I wasted 4-1/2 years and 80,000 miles of RV travel not knowing that.

[GeorgeRa]

You should be the best to judge if you wasted time or money.

[JohnnyFry]

Be aware that what they euphemistically refer to as an “Underhood generator” is in reality a second alternator. As such it makes DC current to charge the batteries. It does not perform the same function as an Onan AC genset. The second alternator in conjunction with a large coach battery and a large inverter does provide you with AC capability to the extent of the inverter capacity and battery reserve.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFry

Be aware that what they euphemistically refer to as an “Underhood generator” is in reality a second alternator. As such it makes DC current to charge the batteries. It does not perform the same function as an Onan AC genset. The second alternator in conjunction with a large coach battery and a large inverter does provide you with AC capability to the extent of the inverter capacity and battery reserve.

Excellent point, we love simplicity and sassy acronyms
Second alternator SA > Underhood Generator > UD.
At first, I didn’t know what it was.