UL 1449 Certified Surge Protection Devices for RVs

[westom]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Is it best to buy an RV surge device that also has Ground Fault Shutdown as a feature?

Ground fault is another human safety feature. Should be standard anywhere a human might be wet when exposed to electrical devices.

GFCI does not protect appliances. GFCI protects human life especially when wet skin means a body is at greatest risk.

[Mike]

This one's been quiet for a while.
While I was browsing the RV parts section of the RV repair facility I was at today, I happened upon 2 samples of the following products.
http://www.progressivedyn.com/power_con ... _9200.html
Note the various power problem solutions provided by these converter/chargers in the product descriptions.
http://www.bestconverter.com/9200-Serie ... _c_84.html
The 9100 product line has similar power issue handling capability, according to it's product description.

I would imagine that these items can be had and retrofitted to older existing RV power systems, and may even be standard equipment in newer recreational vehicles.

Might these items resolve the issue of which surge protection and power handling hardware to buy?

[markopolo]

The Progressive Dynamics converters are good units.

The built in protection those units have protect the converter itself. The Progressive Dynamics converters don't have much to do with the 110v electrical in your RV though. In fact, it plugs into your RV's 110v AC electrical to get power so it is still a good idea to add a device to protect the 110v RV system.

[Mike]

So, the AC power (line in) from the campground post or your generator as mentioned in point 5, and the low voltage protection coming in from the same sources as described in point 4, only protect the converter itself? I read it as, it acts as a surge protector for everything including downstream "12-volt appliances" and "sensitive electronics", if the power source, either the AC line in or a flaky generator, causes a problem.

I guess the power supplied by the AC power cable, that you plug into the campground post, bypasses some of the converter/charger circuitry in the average RV, and feeds directly to the AC outlets in the van?
Hmm, I thought both the generator AC and shore power external all went through the converter/charger.
Sorry, I guess I still have much to learn.

(p.s. got my dump handle hangers shored up. we're ready to travel again )

[markopolo]

It does read as though it protects other appliances but that is not the case. It is protecting only itself from low voltage, high voltage, overheating etc.

Shore power (110v AC) in your van would come into your transfer switch then to your AC panel. The converter gets power from the AC panel just like your other 110v appliances. In most RV's one of the circuit breakers is for the converter.

[Mike]

Makes sense.
Too bad. If it was the other way around and the PD converter/charger fed the AC panel, the DC panel and appliances, and the coach batteries, you wouldn't need the extra surge protection.

[markopolo]

Some inverter / charger units have what you describe. 110v passes through the inverter / charger which has built in surge suppression. The key to those units is the pass through amperage rating. You'd want full 30 amps pass through with surge protection.

I sent an email to Tripp-Lite in 2010:

re: RV1012ULHW - If I plug into a 30 amp outlet at an RV park will this unit allow the full 30 amp capacity to pass through to my AC panel?

and received two replies:

I have checked with our Product Management Group and they have informed me that the RV1012ULHW is rated only to support a 1000W AC load for its output. So, it will not support 30amp output.

I was just informed that if you want the full output of a 30A connection, you would need the RV3012OEM. Attached, please find a PDF detailing the specs and description of this model.

To be frank, I was never confident that they understood my question so the answers might not be accurate.

[Mike]

To be further frank (or frankfurter?), we don't plug in very much, except in our driveway, a total of maybe 5 times since we've owned our van. We have only rarely availed ourselves of a park with full hookups, mostly because of the way we travel, and that's only been out of necessity (too late/too tired to find a rustic/primitive campsite. or in bad, or pending bad, weather).
I was just thinking converter/chargers (and inverter/chargers) might be a useful dual purpose piece of equipment, that would be an easy solution for those folks who plug in more than we do.

[AreCF]

Has anyone found a UL 1449 certified SPD, with the clamping voltages (L-N & L-G) specified, for RV's? I have the same results as marcopolo when attempting to locate specifications for the RV SPD's that are commercially available. Without a specification for the clamping voltage (330 VAC preferred), the surge protection provided by these devices is unknown. For home use, I use only Tripplite & APC, both of which provide the clamping voltage specifications and interrupt power to the load in the event that one or more of the protective elements (MOV's) has been consumed by surges.

[AreCF]

By the way, the response from TRC is inconsistent with UL1449 3rd Edition Overview:

(From UL1449 3rd Edition Overview
Creation of Four Type Designations:
Previous editions of UL 1449 classified surge protective devices into two types: permanently connected or cord-connected. The 3rd edition scraps that system and sorts SPDs into four types, depending on where they are located within an electrical distribution system:

Type 1 - Permanently connected SPDs intended for installation between the secondary of the service transformer and the line side of the service equipment overcurrent device, as well as the load side, including watt-hour meter socket enclosures and intended to be installed without an external overcurrent protective device.

Type 2 - Permanently connected SPDs intended for installation on the load side of the service equipment overcurrent device; including SPDs located at the branch panel.

Type 3 - Point of utilization SPDs, installed at a minimum conductor length of 10 meters (30 feet) from the electrical service panel to the point of utilization, for example cord connected, direct plug-in, receptacle type and SPDs installed at the utilization equipment being protected. The distance (10 meters) is exclusive of conductors provided with or used to attach SPDs.

Type 4 - Component SPDs, including discrete components as well as component assemblies.

[westom]

Originally Posted by AreCF

For home use, I use only Tripplite & APC, both of which provide the clamping voltage specifications and interrupt power to the load in the event that one or more of the protective elements (MOV's) has been consumed by surges.

Unfortunately the Tripplite and APC do not work as described, In fact, each only claims to protect from a transient that typically does no damage. A thermal fuse disconnects protectors parts as fast as possible while leaving that surge connected to adjacent appliances. A transient too tiny to damage adjacent appliances may open that thermal fuse - damage aless robust protector. Essential when a protector is so undersized.

Facilities that cannot have damage use something completely different - also called a surge protector. These come from companies with better integrity including General Electric, ABB, Polyphaser, Intermatic, Ditek, Leviton, Square D, Siemens, Syscom, and Cutler-Hammer – to name but a few.

“Surge” describes a wide variety of anomalies. For example a surge can be a high current, a low voltage, a low current, or a high voltage. It can be an overvoltage, excessive harmonics, or reversed polarity. Because the term is subjective.

Protectors for RVs typically do not protect from surges defined above for homes. These 'surges' can be an overvoltage, an undervoltage, or a floating ground, or open neutral.

UL1449 says nothing about protection. UL Standard are for human safety. For example, electrocution or fire. Location determines how large the protector must be to avert catastrophic failure - says nothing about protection.

What does the 330 volt clamp mean? One wire (ie black) can be at 5000 volts. And others at 4670 volts. Where is the protection?

The word 'surge' has widely varying definitions based upon which anomaly is a concern. Does your protector protect from frequency variations and bad power factor?

[markopolo]

Note: this is an older topic and I haven't kept up to date with any product updates or changes

It's worth doing some research to figure out and understand what you want to prevent or protect against when shopping for RV Power Protection and/or RV Surge Protection.

Video from Progressive Industries.

[youtube:1o4eaeq1]q42gHfPNg-k[/youtube:1o4eaeq1]

The EMS-LCHW30 and EMS-HW30C from Progressive Industries is a different device than their SSP-30 for example.

For me it would be better to have a permanently mounted device. I can't remember the last time I actually used the portable RV surge device I own.

Links:

TRC / Surge Guard: http://trci.net/products/surge-guard-rv

Progressive Industries: http://www.progressiveindustries.net

Some of the newest Class B RV's now have the incoming 110 volt AC passing through a high tech inverter before that power reaches the AC electrical panel and it monitors over/under voltage and frequency etc.

[booster]

I think the surge protection in the inverter/charger has been around for a while. IIRC, per discussion with Tripp-lite, the problem of their RV750 units tripping GFCI outlets was because of a built in surge protector. I can't say how much faith I have in their analysis, though, because the said all of the units would trip a GFCI, and the one we had didn't trip them.

We have had the hardwired Progressive Industries protector for quite a while, and only had it trip once. It only stayed off about 30 seconds and came back on. On occasions when we plug in it will hum some, but most of the time not. I assume it is doing something even though it doesn't show a code.

Evaluating the effectiveness of these things seems to be relatively impossible. We haven't had any electronic failures do to surges, but we don't know if we would have without the PI, so who knows. Many folks go decades without a protector without issue.

[markopolo]

You'll probably find that lower wattage inverter/chargers are fed off the AC panel rather than AC passing through the inverter/charger and feeding the AC panel. The '04 RT I owned came with a Tripp Lite inverter/charger. It was fed off the AC panel. The microwave oven and the air conditioner for example were on entirely separate circuits from the Tripp Lite. Power from the campground would go straight to those two appliances and not pass through any protection device other than the AC breakers.

I see a few devices from Camco now: http://www.rvupgradestore.com/RV-Sur...show=56&page=1 - scroll down to the bottom.

[booster]

That's a good point about the unprotected outlets, and it was how our Tripp-lite was wired also. On our 07 only the audio cabinet, kitchen, and the outlet behind the driver seat went through the Tripp-lite. Roadtrek says that they did it that way because of the small inverter getting overloaded if all the outlets were inverted. The Tripp-lite has a 30 amp transfer switch in it, so that part would have worked fine, but it is unknown if the surge protector is in the circuit when the transfer switch is in the shore power side. I would hope they had it that way. I think other builders had all the outlets wired through the Tripp-lite when the used one.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by markopolo

You'll probably find that lower wattage inverter/chargers are fed off the AC panel rather than AC passing through the inverter/charger and feeding the AC panel.

Yes. This distinction is key. One needs to understand how a given rig is wired in this regard. Our GWV Legend has a 2800W Outback inverter/charger, and the 120VAC runs THROUGH it. That means that all the sophisticated power-quality checking that the Outback does routinely covers the entire vehicle. For this reason, a full-featured protector such as the Progressive Industries unit is unnecessary. What IS necessary is surge suppression (which, for the record, means: "Protection from high voltage transients" such as those caused by lightning). I am going to add the $50 Leviton unit that you referenced earlier in this thread. It seems ideal for the purpose:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-1...-SRG/202993881

[markopolo]

You'd need to see/have 10 gauge wiring on the incoming 110v AC to the inverter charger to carry 30 amps.

I just looked at a Tripp Lite RV series owner manual and the only model listed with 30 amp AC input is RV3012-OEM. My van had the RV612 and Booster's probably had the RV750.

(I typed this while Avanti was posting)

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

Yes. This distinction is key. One needs to understand how a given rig is wired in this regard. Our GWV Legend has a 2800W Outback inverter/charger, and the 120VAC runs THROUGH it. That means that all the sophisticated power-quality checking that the Outback does routinely covers the entire vehicle. For this reason, a full-featured protector such as the Progressive Industries unit is unnecessary. What IS necessary is surge suppression (which, for the record, means: "Protection from high voltage transients" such as those caused by lightning). I am going to add the $50 Leviton unit that you referenced earlier in this thread. It seems ideal for the purpose:

http://www.homedepot.com/s/hole%2520...pressor?NCNI-5

Does the Outback allow the full 30 amps of AC through, or limit to the rating of the inverter at 2800W? Does it do it with a transfer switch in the unit, or run it as AC in, convert to 12, invert to AC out with the inverter?

More going on with all this, that I didn't realize, with one unit doing it all. When we changed out our Tripplite, we wound up with separate charger, inverter, transfer switch, so it is all pretty obvious for our setup.

The manual Tripplite has online for the RV750 is different than the manual we had, that had a chart of all the specs in it. The new manual doesn't even show input AC wire size or fusing recommendations. I couldn't find the transfer switch size anywhere, but I seem to remember 30 amps from our old manual that we don't have any more. The do say the unit has a max draw of a bit over 29 amps, and that the 10 amp breaker is for the charger side.

[avanti]

Does the Outback allow the full 30 amps of AC through, or limit to the rating of the inverter at 2800W?

The Outback VFX2812 lists a max AC input current of 60A and a max output current of 40A so, yes, it will pass the full 30 amps.

Does it do it with a transfer switch in the unit, or run it as AC in, convert to 12, invert to AC out with the inverter?

It has an internal transfer switch. It also automatically handles neutral/ground bonding. I still need an external transfer switch for the genset (upstream of the Outback), but stock GWV had two transfer switches--the Outback eliminates one of them.

More going on with all this, that I didn't realize, with one unit doing it all.

Yes. The all-in-one units are expensive, but they at least save the cost of a bunch of the little bits, and they are much easier to understand and operate.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

It has an internal transfer switch. It also automatically handles neutral/ground bonding. I still need an external transfer switch for the genset (upstream of the Outback), but stock GWV had two transfer switches--the Outback eliminates one of them.

Are you able to shut off (or maybe it does it for you) the inverter section when you are on shore power? If so, do the batteries still charge? These questions relate to things we have heard from folks with various systems, like noisy inverter fans that run all the time, or having to have the inverter on to charge the batteries when on shore power. Someone on here, I don't remember who, had mentioned that the system they had ran off the inverter all the time, no transfer switch in the inverter/charger, so it had to have the inverter on to have AC power when on shore power, and that seemed a bit odd.