Transit's Advanced B / B+ RV Chassis Mike Mas

[IdleUp]

Hello B Forum Users - I have another article for your guys which I’ve been working on for over a year now. In this report, we’ll compare the two leading RV van chassis' designs and suspension systems to disclose how they stack up when used for Class B conversions and Class B+ low and high profile RVs. We’ll compare, load height, rear track, tires, wheel base and a number of other factors that determine how well these chassis can support the weight of conversions and B+ RVs.

In this article we'll also discuss a new generation suspension system called "LiquidSpring" soon to be available for Sprinter chassis. This adaptive suspension system prevents roll moment, levels, kneels and more importantly improves handling as well as offer a ride as smooth as an air bag suspension.

Enjoy - Mike Mas

Click on the link below for the article:

http://rotory.com/transit/handling/

[JakeyLee]

IdleUp, while I have not always agreed with your professional takes on the class B world, you've hit on something that struck me about 18 months ago. I have had the benefit of driving many class B vans in the last two years. I help a very close friend with a moderately sized rv show in Northern California. Truth be told, I volunteer. But I love the atmosphere. I love seeing all the new rigs.. Meh, you get it.

So the thing I love the most, is driving all these rigs. Someone has to get them a hundred plus miles to the location. Quite frankly, it's a lot fun. My take: I truly enjoy most offerings from all the "big three" manufactures ".. Promasters, Transits, and Sprinters. I have been incredibly impressed by the ride quality of the Transits. It's a good balance of the tech that many of us want when spending over 100k, with a marginally better ride (Maybe better than marginal) than the Sprinters. I won't get into diesel vs. gas. That seems like a completely different argument. I personally like gas, though I own neither one.

Here's hoping that the Transit starts seeing more offerings for people that want higher end gassers. I'm thinking that we, the consumers, will only benefit from such a transformation.
Thanks.

[Ron J. Moore]

Thanks Mike for the Comparison, really interesting. I am hoping the gassers also make a great stand; with Ford, we know that they can be serviced anywhere across the land, and parts would be readily available. Ron

[IdleUp]

Thanks for the reply's - My apologies for not including the gas engines because they certainly make good power and are very dependable. I kept it diesel to better compare the Transit to the Sprinter.

Coming from "Old School" I'm certainly not excited about Ford down-sizing from 3.2L to 2.0 on their new diesel, even though at 210 hp and 369 lbs of torque is major power for a van chassis. In fact, because of this cut-back, it looks like I'll be keeping my 2019 because I like larger displacements diesel engines. 369 lb of torque is asking a lot from a tiny 2.0 engine.

Cubes make power - I’ve had a few motorhomes with a 6.7L Cummins at 360 hp and 1000 lbs of torque and similar coach with a Cummins 8.9L with 350 hp ISL / 1050 lbs of torque, while spec-wise they are supposed to be close. There is not a hint of comparison, the larger displacement engine in a heavier RV would climb hills in 6th gear effortless, where the 6.7 would drop to 4th struggling to make it to the top.

This whole cubic inch / HP thing is getting complicated, especially with this new design of smaller displacement diesels. Engine manufactures make money on different hp ratings on the same engine. Typical is Cummins is now offering a “Re-programing” or tuning of the ISL 400 hp to 450-475 HP for a pennies on a dollar ($500) while manufactures charge another $10-12K when you order the coach for the so-called bigger engine.

Anyhow, the Powerstroke 5 cyl in my Transit is happy, it leaps off the line and climbs hills like a van. while its certainly not a Cummins, I think its a perfect power plant for the Transit considering it's great mileage.

Mike

[IdleUp]

Just wanted to mention after conversations this week with a number of RV vendors, it appears as if the RV Industry is finally getting back on its feet to build RV's again after a long shut-down for Covid19. Hopefully, Most of the smaller sub-contract vendors will survive this as well. Here's an earlier article on Thor and Winnebago shut-down and another on re-opening:

Stay Safe - Mike

https://www.southbendtribune.com/new...1bac2a220.html

https://www.southbendtribune.com/new...1c6753952.html

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Thanks for the reply's - My apologies for not including the gas engines because they certainly make good power and are very dependable. I kept it diesel to better compare the Transit to the Sprinter.

Coming from "Old School" I'm certainly not excited about Ford down-sizing from 3.2L to 2.0 on their new diesel, even though at 210 hp and 369 lbs of torque is major power for a van chassis. . .

You likely wont ever see that 2.0L diesel in the USA. A few weeks ago on the Ford Transit USA Forum it was reported that Ford Transit 2.0L EcoBlue Diesel engine is cancelled from 2020 & 2021 production.

https://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/.../#post-1049486

The info was posted by someone associated with Matt Ford in Kansas City after a discussion with the Ford Transit Marketing Director.

[GigaGeek]

Does anyone have anything to report on the 2019+ Sprinters so far, regarding reliability? I understand there were numerous improvements made with the latest model. Some have said the ride quality was noticeably improved as well.

While Sprinters are very appealing in many ways, they’ve been reportedly notorious for having issues with the DEF/emission system, transmission and other areas. Personally, I would love to consider one, but until they become more reliable my preference would be a Transit or ProMaster gas chassis.

A near bulletproof Sprinter could alleviate for many, the disadvantages of fewer US service centers and the higher cost of service. So far, from the new MB plant in North Charleston SC, they seem to be pretty dedicated to quality... So if the 2019+ design revisions hold up, they could be successful in increasing sales and satisfied customers in the US.

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Thanks for the reply's - My apologies for not including the gas engines because they certainly make good power and are very dependable. I kept it diesel to better compare the Transit to the Sprinter.

Coming from "Old School" I'm certainly not excited about Ford down-sizing from 3.2L to 2.0 on their new diesel, even though at 210 hp and 369 lbs of torque is major power for a van chassis. In fact, because of this cut-back, it looks like I'll be keeping my 2019 because I like larger displacements diesel engines. 369 lb of torque is asking a lot from a tiny 2.0 engine.

Cubes make power - I’ve had a few motorhomes with a 6.7L Cummins at 360 hp and 1000 lbs of torque and similar coach with a Cummins 8.9L with 350 hp ISL / 1050 lbs of torque, while spec-wise they are supposed to be close. There is not a hint of comparison, the larger displacement engine in a heavier RV would climb hills in 6th gear effortless, where the 6.7 would drop to 4th struggling to make it to the top.

This whole cubic inch / HP thing is getting complicated, especially with this new design of smaller displacement diesels. Engine manufactures make money on different hp ratings on the same engine. Typical is Cummins is now offering a “Re-programing” or tuning of the ISL 400 hp to 450-475 HP for a pennies on a dollar ($500) while manufactures charge another $10-12K when you order the coach for the so-called bigger engine.

Anyhow, the Powerstroke 5 cyl in my Transit is happy, it leaps off the line and climbs hills like a van. while its certainly not a Cummins, I think its a perfect power plant for the Transit considering it's great mileage.

Mike

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GigaGeek

Does anyone have anything to report on the 2019+ Sprinters so far, regarding reliability? I understand there were numerous improvements made with the latest model. Some have said the ride quality was noticeably improved as well.

While Sprinters are very appealing in many ways, they’ve been reportedly notorious for having issues with the DEF/emission system, transmission and other areas. Personally, I would love to consider one, but until they become more reliable my preference would be a Transit or ProMaster gas chassis.

A near bulletproof Sprinter could alleviate for many, the disadvantages of fewer US service centers and the higher cost of service. So far, from the new MB plant in North Charleston SC, they seem to be pretty dedicated to quality... So if the 2019+ design revisions hold up, they could be successful in increasing sales and satisfied customers in the US.

What improvements have they made? People keep saying that, but isn't the powertrain and BlueTec system basically the same? Sadly, Sprinters have a long, long way to go in order to be "bulletproof". I would like to buy another Sprinter, too. But, given the record and my personal experience with our NCV3, there is absolutely no chance that I will ever buy another diesel-powered vehicle.

Mercedes can read the tea leaves. I very much doubt they will ever make the considerable investment necessary to deploy and certify a fundamentally new Diesel engine in the USA.

[GigaGeek]

From what I recall about the 2019+ Sprinters, they have an updated engine, a new 7 speed transmission, improvements and refinements to the DEF-based emission system, much better cab seats, modern safety technology, etc.

Time will tell on how well they executed the improvements. I’m rooting for them.

Originally Posted by avanti

What improvements have they made? People keep saying that, but isn't the powertrain and BlueTec system basically the same? Sadly, Sprinters have a long, long way to go in order to be "bulletproof". I would like to buy another Sprinter, too. But, given the record and my personal experience with our NCV3, there is absolutely no chance that I will ever buy another diesel-powered vehicle.

Mercedes can read the tea leaves. I very much doubt they will ever make the considerable investment necessary to deploy and certify a fundamentally new Diesel engine in the USA.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GigaGeek

From what I recall about the 2019+ Sprinters, they have an updated engine, a new 7 speed transmission, improvements and refinements to the DEF-based emission system, much better cab seats, modern safety technology, etc.

Time will tell on how well they executed the improvements. I’m rooting for them.

What "updated engine"? Isn't the same old OM642 the only Diesel engine available? Yes, there is a new transmission, but Sprinter transmissions have never been the problem when it comes to reliability.

Of course, there are always "refinements". But, as far as I can see, it is the same old BlueTec system. I have seen no evidence that leads me to believe that reliability will be any better. I'm rooting for them, too. I would love to be able to buy a reliable Sprinter. But, I have simply lost faith that MB will ever build such a vehicle.

[GigaGeek]

From my recollection, there were a few subtle refinements to the engine internals for 2019, but the more significant change was with the emission system.

From my experience, a significant Achilles heel of modern diesels is their DEF-based emission systems. As you know, MB calls theirs BlueTec/AdBlue This configuration provides better emission numbers than prior technologies but adds complexity while reducing reliability. The increased back pressure reduces power, fuel economy and longevity of an otherwise durable engine.

The new version of the Sprinter has updated BlueTec components and additional sensors. Hopefully, that will amount to better reliability. I hope they succeed so I can buy one.

I found an interesting related article by a seasoned MB mechanic that could be helpful to someone.
http://www.stephensservice.com/bluet...ssuesproblems/

Originally Posted by avanti

What "updated engine"? Isn't the same old OM642 the only Diesel engine available? Yes, there is a new transmission, but Sprinter transmissions have never been the problem when it comes to reliability.

Of course, there are always "refinements". But, as far as I can see, it is the same old BlueTec system. I have seen no evidence that leads me to believe that reliability will be any better. I'm rooting for them, too. I would love to be able to buy a reliable Sprinter. But, I have simply lost faith that MB will ever build such a vehicle.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GigaGeek

The new version of the Sprinter has updated BlueTec components and additional sensors. Hopefully, that will amount to better reliability. I hope they succeed so I can buy one.

Yeah, more sensors---I'm sure that will help reliability.

I found an interesting related article by a seasoned MB mechanic that could be helpful to someone.
Mercedes-Benz & Sprinter OM642 BlueTec Diesel Issues/Problems | Stephens Service Center - Sacramento's Best Mercedes-Benz Service & Repairs

Oh, no! Will that document EVER go away?

[sorry, not picking on you. But, that article is very well known around here and is widely recognized as worthless crap. It is FULL of misinformation, some of which is very dangerous. A previous version of it recommended using motorcycle oil in Sprinters!!! The guy is a crank.]

Maybe there will be a reliable Sprinter diesel engine someday, but I very much doubt it. BlueTec is a disaster and the problems are likely too deep to fix with more sensors. MB has made it clear that they see no future in diesel. The technology will never attract the R&D dollars it would take to really fix the issues. In any event, I for one am done with diesel engines.

[GigaGeek]

The more I look, the more I agree. I had a 2012 VW Passat TDI, which I sold back to them in the diesel-gate scandal after 121,000 miles. It ran pretty well when it ran well, but I had several issues with the DEF system. I now drive a 2019 Passat with a 2.0T gas engine. It runs and drives flawlessly.

Originally Posted by avanti

Yeah, more sensors---I'm sure that will help reliability.


Oh, no! Will that document EVER go away?

[sorry, not picking on you. But, that article is very well known around here and is widely recognized as worthless crap. It is FULL of misinformation, some of which is very dangerous. A previous version of it recommended using motorcycle oil in Sprinters!!! The guy is a crank.]

Maybe there will be a reliable Sprinter diesel engine someday, but I very much doubt it. BlueTec is a disaster and the problems are likely too deep to fix with more sensors. MB has made it clear that they see no future in diesel. The technology will never attract the R&D dollars it would take to really fix the issues. In any event, I for one am done with diesel engines.