Transit or Sprinter? Which to choose?

[Bungawoosie]

I love my revel 4x4. I did have the ford transit , not reliable

[MsNomer]

The PM is actually 78” wide at the waist, still nearly 5.5’ at the ceiling. It makes a huge difference, not just with the bed.

[avanti]

I will welcome the extra width of my eventual Transit, but it is the extra height that I am really looking forward to. At 6'3" I am at the very edge of what can be comfortably accommodated in a metal-roofed Sprinter. The extra height of the Transit will be pure luxury for me. I am really tired of my hair always brushing against the ceiling.

[Rocinante]

Originally Posted by Bungawoosie

I love my revel 4x4. I did have the ford transit , not reliable

To be fair, I've read that same concern applied to the diesel Sprinter muiltiple times in multiple places. It's allegedly very expensive indeed to maintain one and certified diesel Sprinter mechanics are supposedly quite difficult to find in rural parts of the country. I really wish an outfit like Consumer Reports would evaluate the reliability of the big three van models (Transit, ProMaster and Sprinter), but I've yet to see anything like that.

[peteco]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

To be fair, I've read that same concern applied to the diesel Sprinter muiltiple times in multiple places. It's allegedly very expensive indeed to maintain one and certified diesel Sprinter mechanics are supposedly quite difficult to find in rural parts of the country. I really wish an outfit like Consumer Reports would evaluate the reliability of the big three van models (Transit, ProMaster and Sprinter), but I've yet to see anything like that.

Not sure I trust Consumer Reports to get reliability information right on these vehicles. Best bet is to read the forums. It takes time to weed through them but you can get an idea of what the issues are on a vehicle.

[jrobe]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

certified diesel Sprinter mechanics are supposedly quite difficult to find in rural parts of the country. .

Mercedes owns Freightliner Dealerships. There are hundreds of them across the country that sell and service Sprinters.

In fact we bought our Sprinter at our local Freightliner Dealership and then took it to Sportsmobile for conversion. Their service center are great. They are even open evenings and every Sat and Sunday for the truckers. I only have used them for fuel filter replacements but they have usually got me in within a few hours of when I call. Unlike many service centers, they have the required lifts for very heavy RV's since they usually service semi-trucks.

Here is a search tool for their service centers.

https://freightliner.com/dealer-search/

[synergy]

For the most part, this has been my experience too, that Freightliner service centers are pretty good. I would stay clear of Stoops, however, especially the one located at: 7800 Center Point 70 Blvd, Dayton, OH (nearer to Fairborn, OH), as this place is horrible. I have found that their are more, better trained Spinter techs at MB dealerships, but there are more Freightliner dealers accros the US, and as you stated, are better equipped for faster services. Hopefully, Freightliner is gaining on the Spriter service scene, training more techs.

[avanti]

Freightliner can be a viable choice, but
1) Don't assume that they all service Sprinters. Many are big-rigs only.
2) They seem to have varying policies. E.G., some are "walk in" only (i.e., no appointments--first come-first served).
3) They are not all enthusiastic about the "retail" trade.

Worth checking out, and it is great that you have a good Freightliner dealer. I have had at least one excellent experience with one in Michigan. But they are sadly not a panacea for the "scarce Sprinter service options" issue, which is very real.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by avanti

I will welcome the extra width of my eventual Transit, but it is the extra height that I am really looking forward to. At 6'3" I am at the very edge of what can be comfortably accommodated in a metal-roofed Sprinter. The extra height of the Transit will be pure luxury for me. I am really tired of my hair always brushing against the ceiling.

You have hair?

[Roadie]

Look at YOUR cons list! would you really buy the Sprinter with that list? Because you think the one dash looks better? How will that dash look when you are lugging in those mountains, you will have a lot more time to look at it!

[dmb496]

Originally Posted by Roadie

Look at YOUR cons list! would you really buy the Sprinter with that list? Because you think the one dash looks better? How will that dash look when you are lugging in those mountains, you will have a lot more time to look at it!

My daily driver is a Ford F350, crew cab, dual rear wheels and 4x4, a 6.0 liter diesel engine with 450 hp and 800 lb/ft of torque, and a 5 speed automatic transmission. I've owned the truck many years.

We bought our 2020 Galleria built on a 2019 M-B chassis, in late February of this year. The engine is rated 188 hp and torque is 325. It has a 7 speed automatic transmission.

All the above being said...when we brought the Galleria home to Maryland from Michigan, we had to climb the mountains of western Pennsylvania while on the Pennsylvania Turnpike. I was very surprised at how long the torque converter remained locked, and the few times the transmission downshifted when ascending the mountains, all while maintaining the speed limit. I'm impressed at what the 3.0 liter diesel does while pushing a 10,000+ pound vehicle down the road.

So...having lived with a large diesel and plenty of torque, I expected less from the M-B Sprinter, until I drove it home. Nowhere during that trip did we experience "lugging".

[LostInWoods]

Originally Posted by Roadie

Look at YOUR cons list! would you really buy the Sprinter with that list? Because you think the one dash looks better? How will that dash look when you are lugging in those mountains, you will have a lot more time to look at it!

Originally Posted by dmb496

We bought our 2020 Galleria built on a 2019 M-B chassis, in late February of this year. The engine is rated 188 hp and torque is 325. It has a 7 speed automatic transmission.

I think Roadie was referring to the OP, who is looking at the new gas Sprinter which has considerably less torque than the 3.0 liter diesel.

From Post #1:
Mercedes Sprinter:
I-4 188 hp @ 5,000 rpm Torque 258 lb-ft @ 2,500–3,500 rpm
Gas engine comes with a 9-speed AT

[avanti]

Originally Posted by LostInWoods

I think Roadie was referring to the OP, who is looking at the new gas Sprinter which has considerably less torque than the 3.0 liter diesel.

From Post #1:
Mercedes Sprinter:
I-4 188 hp @ 5,000 rpm Torque 258 lb-ft @ 2,500–3,500 rpm
Gas engine comes with a 9-speed AT

The engine itself has less torque, but with modern many-geared transmissions, this has no real impact on bottom-line performance. The right gear ratio can deliver any torque you want to the wheels, assuming there is enough HP. It is power that you rig needs to move. Torque is just an engineering parameter. It mattered with old, crude transmissions. It doesn't matter any more.

[booster]

Yep, torque can be manipulated with gears so being able to move the vehicle can nearly always be achieved. As Avanti said, it is the horsepower that makes a difference in how fast you make it up the mountain. This is itself would indicate that a 10K pound vehicle with a 188hp engine should never be near the performance of a 450hp engine in a similar weight vehicle. The Sprinter likely has a wider band of rpm where the torque is high than the old 6.0 Ford, we hear the Sprinters usually are running at 3500rpm up big hills IIRC, so especially when coupled with lots of gears that allow it to run at the top end of the rpm range where it makes more hp, it looks good in comparison. The Ford would probably have a very low, and quite narrow high torque band so would not be able to get it to run in the highest hp rpm range most of the time without a lot gears it doesn't have. That is why the big rigs all have traditionally had 18 speeds, as they had huge torque, narrow power band, engines.


Now days, with modern gas engines, the torque bands get even wider in the non boosted engines. I have seen nearly flat torque from under 2000 to over 5000 rpm in some of them. Couple them with a transmission that allows them to operate at or near the peak hp range and they can be very powerful when needed and also have a wide enough torque band to not need to use the high rpm all the time. Turboed engines normally have a narrower high torque band of about 2500 rpm and it is not as flat in most cases. I can't recall what the Ecoboost in the vans curve looks like, but I know that information is hard to find.

[Bud]

188hp is 188hp is 188hp, no matter the torque, fuel, day of the week or weight of the vehicle.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

188hp is 188hp is 188hp, no matter the torque, fuel, day of the week or weight of the vehicle.

Absolutely! The big deal is to have them run as close to that max hp place as possible, and that can take a lot of gears to do, especially if hp drops off quickly as rpm changes away from that point.

[dmb496]

[QUOTE=booster;113801]Yep, torque can be manipulated with gears so being able to move the vehicle can nearly always be achieved. As Avanti said, it is the horsepower that makes a difference in how fast you make it up the mountain. This is itself would indicate that a 10K pound vehicle with a 188hp engine should never be near the performance of a 450hp engine in a similar weight vehicle. The Sprinter likely has a wider band of rpm where the torque is high than the old 6.0 Ford, we hear the Sprinters usually are running at 3500rpm up big hills IIRC, so especially when coupled with lots of gears that allow it to run at the top end of the rpm range where it makes more hp, it looks good in comparison. The Ford would probably have a very low, and quite narrow high torque band so would not be able to get it to run in the highest hp rpm range most of the time without a lot gears it doesn't have. That is why the big rigs all have traditionally had 18 speeds, as they had huge torque, narrow power band, engines.



I must have missed my mark in my post. Mentioning my experiences with the Ford 6.0 Powerstroke was only to allude that I'm familiar with diesel engines in general. I realize a comparison of the Ford 6.0 to the M-B 3.0 is apples to oranges. I've also driven large commercial diesel rigs. Several times pulling a loaded 7,000 gallon tanker. Hardly anything analagous about their performance with regard to the current topic.

My Ford 6.0 Powerstroke's rpm and torque band is actually quite wide, and peaks similarly where the M-B 3.0 does.

I mentioned climbing mountains in western PA with the Galleria. The rpm was typically 1,900 to 2,100. A downshift would raise it to 2,500-2,600.

In this and my first post, I specifically did not use speculative words such as; likely, we hear, probably.

[synergy]

[QUOTE=dmb496;113827]

Originally Posted by booster

Yep, torque can be manipulated with gears so being able to move the vehicle can nearly always be achieved. As Avanti said, it is the horsepower that makes a difference in how fast you make it up the mountain. This is itself would indicate that a 10K pound vehicle with a 188hp engine should never be near the performance of a 450hp engine in a similar weight vehicle. The Sprinter likely has a wider band of rpm where the torque is high than the old 6.0 Ford, we hear the Sprinters usually are running at 3500rpm up big hills IIRC, so especially when coupled with lots of gears that allow it to run at the top end of the rpm range where it makes more hp, it looks good in comparison. The Ford would probably have a very low, and quite narrow high torque band so would not be able to get it to run in the highest hp rpm range most of the time without a lot gears it doesn't have. That is why the big rigs all have traditionally had 18 speeds, as they had huge torque, narrow power band, engines.

Originally Posted by booster

I must have missed my mark in my post. Mentioning my experiences with the Ford 6.0 Powerstroke was only to allude that I'm familiar with diesel engines in general. I realize a comparison of the Ford 6.0 to the M-B 3.0 is apples to oranges. I've also driven large commercial diesel rigs. Several times pulling a loaded 7,000 gallon tanker. Hardly anything analagous about their performance with regard to the current topic.

My Ford 6.0 Powerstroke's rpm and torque band is actually quite wide, and peaks similarly where the M-B 3.0 does.

I mentioned climbing mountains in western PA with the Galleria. The rpm was typically 1,900 to 2,100. A downshift would raise it to 2,500-2,600.

In this and my first post, I specifically did not use speculative words such as; likely, we hear, probably.

My original post, without the violation:

My ’09 Navion use to lug under certain conditions. I use to have to drive from Pensacola FL to Dayton Ohio, back during a three year period, made the trip about 4-6 times per year. The first several trips were painfully challenging during those times that I had to transcend the hilly areas between Lexington, KY and Knoxville, TN, in and around Rockytop. If I could maintain my speed, kept my shifting in a perfect sync, then I could make the runs smoothly. BUT, if I so much as got cut off by a trucker, which is usually what happened, I would bog down and lug all the way to the top of that hill; it was miserable. The trick was to keep a strong flow, keep it moving, and strong.

I got tired of that way of driving. I made some “changes” to my rig and what an amazing difference. I’m very pleased with my rig now. I now have much better performance and that perfect edge I need to drive like the rig should drive, and should have come from the factory this way.

In any case, it makes all the difference in the world. It’s not just the engine, it’s the tranny, the shift points, the lack of more gears. If I had a six, seven, speed, it would not be an issue, as you can see in the new rigs, with six, seven speed trannys. But, the trannys didn’t begin to improve until around 2014 and on, so we’re just now starting to see more benefits, in the newer models.

I have a 2015, 4 banger, and let me tell you…what an impressive rig and driving personality this thing has, with it’s seven speed tranny. I mean this thing will FLY, had it wings! And fuel economy, wow! On most days, I get a steady 25 mpg. I have gotten 33! I towed a 5000 lb load in a Wells Cargo 5x10, single axle, about 600 miles, got 22 mpg, and I wasn’t cutting her any slack, just rolled on like she didn’t even have anything behind her.

Companys like MB, Ford, are finally giving us some better, improved technologies now a days. It’s not necessarily the manufacuters fault, it’s their intent, due to profit margins. Of course, research and engineerings costs a lot to invest in. So, they have to re-coup thier investments. As the ole saying goes, “first come, first served”. Well, in the RV world, it’s “first come, first charged (higher)”, the rest will follow. It’s supply and demand, and those who want it first. …….MB has to sell off their older inventory, so they can let loose on those newer models with updated technologies, and at more affordable pricing; it’ll come, as other competition pushes them to the bank.

Glad you’re having a good expeinerence, with your MB Sprinter chassis. A lot of people complain about the price, the maintenance, the lack of dealerships, etc, but the fact is, these MB chassis buggies are premiumly built rigs with state of the art technologies in them. The engineering is some of the best in the world. Yes, yes, they had a period of "DEF I tis”, the horribly presented EPA control hoops and jumps, and the public suffered, some. MB took care of what they were presented under warranties, and they struggled for a few years trying to make things right, better, and take care of their customers. He(ll)ck, I b****ed a time or two about a few issues I had with mine, but…MB took care of me, made sure all was correct. Not like other vehicles didn't go through similar or worse issues too.

And so everyone here knows, I’m not suggesting that Ford Transit can’t live up to their name, their product, but let’s face it, the dash does look better in an MB unit, as does all other interior parts look better in an MB unit; exterior too for that matter. MB just has a more quality look and feel about them, doesn’t mean transit isn’t any good, just different.

I know, I know…here we go, probably, again. And no, I’m not knocking Transit, Ford maybe. Heck, I checked out that new Lerisure Travel “Wonder”, and I think it’s petty neat. Just wish it had better electrical options.

Anyhoo, “keep on truckin baby, ya gotta keep on, truckin!”

[synergy]

Originally Posted by avanti

The engine itself has less torque, but with modern many-geared transmissions, this has no real impact on bottom-line performance. The right gear ratio can deliver any torque you want to the wheels, assuming there is enough HP. It is power that you rig needs to move. Torque is just an engineering parameter. It mattered with old, crude transmissions. It doesn't matter any more.

Really. Gears don't matter anymore? Strange, because as far as I can tell, my 4 banger, with seven speed tranny, which has much less HP than my 6 banger, which has only a 5 speed tranny, can move much faster up those hills, and without any hesitation. Maybe it’s just me.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by synergy

Really. Gears don't matter anymore? Strange, because as far as I can tell, my 4 banger, with seven speed tranny, which has much less HP than my 6 banger, which has only a 5 speed tranny, can move much faster up those hills, and without any hesitation. Maybe it’s just me.

I must not have made myself clear. I completely agree with what you say here. I did not mean to claim that "gears don't matter". My claim is that engine torque doesn't matter, which is consistent with your statements.

I apologize for any lack of clarity.