Toronto RV show - amazing!

[indoorsy]

So I am here at the Toronto RV show and thought I would share some of my findings. First of all, this is 50 times the show that Boston is. From the friendliness of the people to the really updated and modern bathroom and restaurant at the convention center. It feels so plush! Which I guess is what I really love about the leisure travel vans as well as the Hymer Aktiv 2.0. Very very plush and so impressed.

Here is what I learned, something that most of you probably already know…

The leisure travel van wonder which is what I really want it until I found out it only had two seatbelts, only has two seatbelts because they can only support sleeping for two. Apparently you can only have one seatbelt per sleeping position. They got away with more seatbelts in the unity twin bed model because they can cheat an extra bed between the driver and passengers seat in the front. And so, I learned that the Class B because it is also a second vehicle, rather than a recreation vehicle, means they can put as many seatbelts as they want without regard to the sleeping situation.

I chatted with the infamous Dean from Leisure travel vans, what a nice guy! And so informative. He asked me what my camping needs were and family situation, etc. He told me they are working on the wonder RTB and that will basically be like the unity and offer the extra seat belts and sleeping positions. The Prototype should be ready in June so that would be for only 2018. He said they were working fast and furious on it.

The Hymer rep was at the show as well and I learned a ton from him about the aktiv 2.0. I think at this point it serves my needs better than the leisure travel vans offerings.

I guess the question is, do I wait until that leisure travel RTB model is out… My gut instinct says not to as my kids are getting older and there's only so long I have with them. Also, next year my daughter is a junior in high school I will be driving her around to look at colleges and I thought how much fun it would be to travel in the RV.

One question for you with a class B, so you insure this as a vehicle but do you also have to have a RV insurance?

Is anyone else here at the show? If so, I'm at the really nice bar in the sparking restaurant having a delicious chicken Caesar salad and a beer. Please join me!

[indoorsy]

Replying to my own thread because I forgot to mention one of the things that I learned. So as a US resident I cannot purchase something here at the show because it would void the warranty when I went to register it in the US. However, I could buy a used RV from the Canadian dealer as long as it has six months on it and that would not void the warranty. Doesn't seem to make much sense to me but I thought with the 20% savings gain with currency rates buying a used RV from a Canadian dealer makes sense!

Stating something here that I'm sure you're all aware of. This is all new to me…

Also, using Siri to type on my iPhone so my apologies for any weird mistakes.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by indoorsy

Replying to my own thread because I forgot to mention one of the things that I learned. So as a US resident I cannot purchase something here at the show because it would void the warranty when I went to register it in the US. However, I could buy a used RV from the Canadian dealer as long as it has six months on it and that would not void the warranty. Doesn't seem to make much sense to me but I thought with the 20% savings gain with currency rates buying a used RV from a Canadian dealer makes sense!

Stating something here that I'm sure you're all aware of. This is all new to me…

Also, using Siri to type on my iPhone so my apologies for any weird mistakes.

AFAIK, you can't title and register any vehicle imported into CONUS unless it complies with U.S. DOT requirements. The Canadian"DOT" equivalent involves requirements that differ from ours.

[<<B-Guy>>]

Originally Posted by indoorsy

So I am here at the Toronto RV show and thought I would share some of my findings. First of all, this is 50 times the show that Boston is. From the friendliness of the people to the really updated and modern bathroom and restaurant at the convention center. It feels so plush! Which I guess is what I really love about the leisure travel vans as well as the Hymer Aktiv 2.0. Very very plush and so impressed.

Here is what I learned, something that most of you probably already know…

The leisure travel van wonder which is what I really want it until I found out it only had two seatbelts, only has two seatbelts because they can only support sleeping for two. Apparently you can only have one seatbelt per sleeping position. They got away with more seatbelts in the unity twin bed model because they can cheat an extra bed between the driver and passengers seat in the front. And so, I learned that the Class B because it is also a second vehicle, rather than a recreation vehicle, means they can put as many seatbelts as they want without regard to the sleeping situation.

I chatted with the infamous Dean from Leisure travel vans, what a nice guy! And so informative. He asked me what my camping needs were and family situation, etc. He told me they are working on the wonder RTB and that will basically be like the unity and offer the extra seat belts and sleeping positions. The Prototype should be ready in June so that would be for only 2018. He said they were working fast and furious on it.

The Hymer rep was at the show as well and I learned a ton from him about the aktiv 2.0. I think at this point it serves my needs better than the leisure travel vans offerings.

I guess the question is, do I wait until that leisure travel RTB model is out… My gut instinct says not to as my kids are getting older and there's only so long I have with them. Also, next year my daughter is a junior in high school I will be driving her around to look at colleges and I thought how much fun it would be to travel in the RV.

One question for you with a class B, so you insure this as a vehicle but do you also have to have a RV insurance?

Is anyone else here at the show? If so, I'm at the really nice bar in the sparking restaurant having a delicious chicken Caesar salad and a beer. Please join me!

We attended early Thursday morning - a great time to go, apart from tickets being half price, very few people around so you could take your time looking at the vehicles and it was easy to reach sales folk and factory reps as needed.

First time I had seen the Leisure Travel vans 0 they are are plush and beautiful, but unfortunately all too large for us to fit in our drive unless I inset oe of our garage doors a couple of feet which some folk have done. I suppose that wouldn't be too big an undertaking!

However I really think I would like to stay with something in the 21-23 ft range which I think for us will strike a better balance at being "just big enough" and yet also more flexible for parking, manouevering, and use as a second vehicle.

The Aktiv 2.0 was one that I had really wanted to see but was a little dissapointed as we both found it just way too claustrophobic with the extremely narrow aisle. The dinette was a plus but even it was very confining despite the fact that we are both on the smallish side!

I certainly know that it is different strokes for different folks and for many, the Aktiv 2.0 could be just perfect. I could probably be ok with it, but my "Mrs" had stronger views!

The one we both liked the best was the PW Lexor ST and it would suit us fine. For now it comes to the top of our list!

I gather they are just coming out with a PW Lexor FL version by relocating the hanging closet that is right behind the driver's seat to a rearward position just aft of the fridge.

That not only seems to permit a larger hanging closet but also allows full rotation of the driver's seat and inclusion of a small flip down computer shelf.

(One of the few negatives we had about the Lexor TS was the extremely narrow
hanging closet - two thin jackets and that would be it!)

We missed out on the nice restaurant and bar that you mentioned - damn! Allw e say was a booth selling ice creams in winter! We stopped for a meal on the short journey home instead.

Brian.

[indoorsy]

Wingeezer, I hear you! I definitely prefer the extra interior space of the leisure travel vans, but having driven nine hours from Boston and driving along side 18 wheelers in a tiny BMW X1, and feeling a little rattled, it made me realize that the smaller width vehicle is probably a better choice for me.

I toured all the B class vans and I like the Hymer the best. The roadtrek seems to have such an awesome reputation but I did not like walking in to see a bathroom straight in front of me. I preferred seeing the small dinette table. I think for the way that I would use it, we would be mainly outdoors in lawn chairs but I felt with the power sofa in the back of the Hymer as well as the small dinette at front that it maximizes the living space while minimizing storage and bathroom. That is an ideal set up for me since we won't be traveling for long periods of time.

I'm about to get on the road to go home but when I get there, I will post some pictures. One of which is the sparkly restaurant!

[<<B-Guy>>]

Originally Posted by indoorsy

Wingeezer, I hear you! I definitely prefer the extra interior space of the leisure travel vans, but having driven nine hours from Boston and driving along side 18 wheelers in a tiny BMW X1, and feeling a little rattled, it made me realize that the smaller width vehicle is probably a better choice for me.

I toured all the B class vans and I like the Hymer the best. The roadtrek seems to have such an awesome reputation but I did not like walking in to see a bathroom straight in front of me. I preferred seeing the small dinette table. I think for the way that I would use it, we would be mainly outdoors in lawn chairs but I felt with the power sofa in the back of the Hymer as well as the small dinette at front that it maximizes the living space while minimizing storage and bathroom. That is an ideal set up for me since we won't be traveling for long periods of time.

I'm about to get on the road to go home but when I get there, I will post some pictures. One of which is the sparkly restaurant!

Agreed, the Aktiv seems to fit a lot of stuff in there. The bathroom is a bit tight but workable.

Surprising amount of storage under the rear sofa - I had expected to see lithoum batteries in there but we spoke with Steve MacDonald, the rep from Hymer who told us they were underneath the van. The Lexor does have them under the back seat)

I had though that there was a problem in cold weather such that you could not charge Lithiums in freezing temperatures and that was why they were inside - perhaps the Hymer has a heated compartment underneath for them or maybe the charging circuitry is such that it won't charge below a certain temp.

Sound like the Hymer fills the bill for you - I do like the fact that it has the underhood generator rather than an Onan. I wish PW would go that route and it wouldn't surprise me if they do at some point - probably right after we buy with with an Onan!

Brian

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by indoorsy

.... The roadtrek seems to have such an awesome reputation...


!

Don't mean to shatter your illusion...

but the awesome roadtreks are the old roadtreks (pre-2008 ).
The recent batches suffered embarrassing failures and uncaring customer follow-ups.
They are trying; I hope they have pulled their socks up and made improvments.

[cruisefx]

Originally Posted by indoorsy

Wingeezer, I hear you! I definitely prefer the extra interior space of the leisure travel vans, but having driven nine hours from Boston and driving along side 18 wheelers in a tiny BMW X1, and feeling a little rattled, it made me realize that the smaller width vehicle is probably a better choice for me.

Indoorsy

We missed you but I saw your X1 as we were parked in the same row. I saw the MASS license plates and wondered if it was you! We were with friends and were hanging out in the Serenity! We were in deep conversations with Dean and discussing what was in the pipeline for LTV, too.

Glad that the trip was worthwhile for you!

[<<B-Guy>>]

Originally Posted by BBQ

Don't mean to shatter your illusion...

but the awesome roadtreks are the old roadtreks (pre-2008 ).
The recent batches suffered embarrassing failures and uncaring customer follow-ups.
They are trying; I hope they have pulled their socks up and made improvments.

Roadtrek's 6 yr warranty that I believe also covers appliances such as fridge and AC is tempting and to some extent makes one less concerned about issues with Voltstart and such.

But then I have heard that getting warranty repairs by dealers can be a frustrating experience, so it might be preferable to opt for what is reckoned to be the highest quality MH even if it means a lesser warranty - and hope you never need the warranty !

Also I think that for minor warrantee items that one can handle oneself with little
or no material cost, sometimes it may be much less hassle just to deal with it yourself and forego the warranty claim!

I think PW offer a 5 year warranty - but appliances are only covered by the manufacturers warranty, typically one year.

Winnebago, I think give just a one year warranty.

I have always done my own work on trailers that we have owned, repacks, repairs to AC / furnace / HW heater etc., but some of the modern electronics - multiplex wiring etc. - would be beyond my capabilities!

For years I have restored Brit sports cars and worked on bikes as a hobby, but I wouldn't consider doing much with a modern car or truck! Looks like RV's are going the same way

Brian.

[indoorsy]

Wow, cruisefx! Funny you saw my car! Wasn't Dean the best? What a great guy! Wish he'd bottle up his personality... I'd take a teaspoon every morning!!

Wingeezer, I appreciate your take on the warranty / in reading the forums seems a mechanical inclination is almost a must, I'm smart, handy and resourceful but doubtful I'd be good at mechanical issues (or electrical).

BBQ, thank you for the heads up. I wish I had your depth of knowledge and insight. I've been on the forums reading as much as I can to try and get some idea / lay of the land. It's a process! Thank you again ��

[indoorsy]

One more thing Wingeezer... I think the 6 year warranty on the Hymer tips the balance for me. I spoke with Steve MacDonald too. He's no Dean, but very patiently and with low key confidence answered all my questions (I had a lot). I like that the six years includes everything they put in it. It's for sure a comfort to a non-mechanical newbie.

[mumkin]

To answer your query about keeping the lithiums warm, the Roadtreks under the rig are in a box that includes a heating system. If the temps are too cold for the heaters, the system shuts it all down to protect the batteries. To restart the batteries, there is a third AGM that has the job of "jump-starting" them again.

For those who do only limited boondocking, good old trustworthy AGMs are probably just fine.

And yes, Dean from LTV is quite the character. I wish LTV would start building class B rigs again, but with the popularity of their little Class C's, they have enough trouble keeping up.

Indoorsy... Did you check out the Serenity?

[<<B-Guy>>]

Originally Posted by indoorsy

One more thing Wingeezer... I think the 6 year warranty on the Hymer tips the balance for me. I spoke with Steve MacDonald too. He's no Dean, but very patiently and with low key confidence answered all my questions (I had a lot). I like that the six years includes everything they put in it. It's for sure a comfort to a non-mechanical newbie.

I agree with that! The only caveat I would have is that I have read many posts on this forum and at other places stating that people have had bad experiences with their dealers getting warranty work done - not that they won't do it, but that they may give you the runaraound when it comes to how long it will be before they can help you. As well, some complain that their dealer is not very knowlegeable or competent when it comes to some of the high tech electronics that are more and more prevalent

The warranty is still very attractive, but for my part I am putting less emphasis on it than I did when I started looking at B vans and trying to focus on models that people feel have the best build quality in the first place.

If you have the choice of a few local dealers it might be wise to see if you can get some feedback from other customers as to their service.

I think it is unique that RT extend the appliance warranty from the typical one year to six, especially if you don't care to fiddle with these things!

I do think however that if the device lasts the first year it is likely to last quite a while!

The most expensive appliances are likely the fridge and the AC.

I have had our share of problems with appliances - but our trailer is now 13 years old and does not get used much - most of the problems have been nothing more that corroded spade connectors and circuit board connectors - a bit of poking around with a mulimeter and some clean up of the connectors has so far always done the trick for me.

I think the only time that was not the problem, it was a faulty thermostat switch on the HW heater. Once I isolated the problem it was about $30 for a new one and five minutes time to install!

Best of luck with whatever you select and I'm sure you will have a great time with it!

Part of the fun is learning as much about all the systems and equipment as you can! Unless, like my son in law, who has a huge fifth wheel trailer /diesel truck, and is an accountant - you are not into that sort of thing, and that's fine too! he changes trailers every few years to hopefully avoid problems and it seems to work for him - although he blew two tires on his last trip causing quite a few thousand dollars damage to the trailer - covered by insurance thankfully!

As a retired mech. eng., I love to tinker with things!

Brian

[jrobe]

What is the build quality like on the Hymer Aktiv? Did you look at this closely? I hope they are built better than the new Roadtreks. The build quality on those are pretty dismal. The Pleasureway RV's sure seem like they are built better to me when you really look close at the cabinets and other components. Build quality would be almost as high on my list of priorities as floorplan.

Did you sit on that front bench seat on the Aktiv? I have never seen a Class B with front bench dinette seats like that I could sit on for more than a few minutes with the straight upright backrest. No one would ever have a living room lounge chair like that in their home which then almost makes it a waste of valuable space in a Class B. Everyone is different though.

[<<B-Guy>>]

Originally Posted by jrobe

What is the build quality like on the Hymer Aktiv? Did you look at this closely? I hope they are built better than the new Roadtreks. The build quality on those are pretty dismal. The Pleasureway RV's sure seem like they are built better to me when you really look close at the cabinets and other components. Build quality would be almost as high on my list of priorities as floorplan.

Did you sit on that front bench seat on the Aktiv? I have never seen a Class B with front bench dinette seats like that I could sit on for more than a few minutes with the straight upright backrest. No one would ever have a living room lounge chair like that in their home which then almost makes it a waste of valuable space in a Class B. Everyone is different though.

Hi jrobe.

Yes, I made a point of putting the table down and swing the drivers seat.

It isn't bad sitting in the driver's seat, but i didn't care at all for sitting on the bench side. I'm only about 5'7" 140lb (despite being a home brewer and sampling my wares daily!) but it was still very snug sliding in between the seat back and table - I fit ok once in but didn't really like the completely vertical back rest.

Our Airsrteam trailer has vertical backrests in the dinette too, but the table and seats themselves are much bigger. I have back issues, but putting a cushion between my back and the back rest makes it very comfortable for me.

For my wife and I, neither of us liked it and felt that by cramming so much into a smallish B, that they had gone too far. The extremely narrow aisle spoiled it for us too.

That's just us though - if someone does want all the features and is ok with how tight things are, it would work. We decided that much as we like dinettes, we are better to go without for the sake of a more spacious layout.

As for quality, once we concluded it was not for us, so I didn't study it in great detail.

I can say with certainty though that superficially the PW looked to be in a different league - much more attractive and when looking at detail, the fit and finish looked to be excellent.

The Lexor we saw seemed to us to live up to what people generally say about PW compared to Hymer and RT from a quality standpoint

The materials used also were much nicer, high gloss, curved, very solid cabinety, corian, etc. - but then, I think it is maybe $10k more than the Aktiv if that is a strong concern.

I still wasn't sure if I liked the Aktiv Cassette toilet or not compared to a conventional black tank.



For me, the only negatives with the PW in comparison to the Akiv were:

- Onan generator - I would rather have the underhood, although in reality, I doubt we will use either very much so perhaps it isn't terribly important. The Onan's seem pretty noisy though - as well as something else to maintain.

- Lithium batteries will take quite a bit of space under the sofa on the PW,
not so with the Aktiv

- no spare tire (still not sure about that concept. I know you can carry the plug kit and compressor and that "might" work, and actually we have never - yet - had a flat on our trucks or trailers!

- driver's seat will not swing right around on the Lexor TS, but I think PW are showing a Lexor FL at the Tampa show in which it will. It is not yet on the PW website, but if it materialises that is the version I would opt for.

- warranty not quite as good as Aktiv - 5 yrs instead of 6, and only 1 yr on appliances.

These are just thoughts as applied to ur wishes. As they say, "You pays your money and takes your choice - i'm sure both would be good fun and each offers pros and cons!"

Brian

[indoorsy]

hi Mumkin,
I did go into the Serenity. It is amazing. I loved the layout and it was clearly very well built. I had watched a ton of youtube videos and did so much research before going to the show and had arrived with the thought that if I saw a B Class that I didn't think was too cramped (had seen the Airstream Interstate the weekend before and did not like it, felt claustrophobic) that it would be the right direction for me. I made a beeline for the Aktiv 2.0 when I got to the show and really loved it right off the bat. I spent the next several hours wandering around looking at the Leisure Travel Vans (loved but acknowledged I'd prefer the smaller size vehicle (more manageable for me) to the expanse of space, plus the less expensive Wonder doesn't work because of lack of seatbelts and the Serenity and Unity are beyond my budget), the PleasureWay's (the interior trim of the Lexor is SO sleek and pretty but I do not care for the bathroom upon entering), the Roadtrek's (again, I don't like the bathroom location).

It is funny how (as Wingeezer mentioned) it is different strokes for different folks. He and better half hated the Aktiv, I loved it. They found it cramped, I found it surprisingly spacious (especially as compared to Airstream), some would not want a cassette toilet, I can abide that because I like the layout. I thought the fit and finish looked great, but Wingeezer disagreed. There may be some confirmation bias going on.

Per BBQ's suggestion, I joined the Aktiv Facebook group. Reading through posts over there and getting a bit scared off by a couple of horror stories. But also seeing many happy campers. Ugh, this is so hard. I've wanted to make a move for years - feeling so ready, found the perfect layout, love the modern feel, and now nervous - what if I get a problem unit?

[<<B-Guy>>]

Originally Posted by indoorsy

hi Mumkin,
I did go into the Serenity. It is amazing. I loved the layout and it was clearly very well built. I had watched a ton of youtube videos and did so much research before going to the show and had arrived with the thought that if I saw a B Class that I didn't think was too cramped (had seen the Airstream Interstate the weekend before and did not like it, felt claustrophobic) that it would be the right direction for me. I made a beeline for the Aktiv 2.0 when I got to the show and really loved it right off the bat. I spent the next several hours wandering around looking at the Leisure Travel Vans (loved but acknowledged I'd prefer the smaller size vehicle (more manageable for me) to the expanse of space, plus the less expensive Wonder doesn't work because of lack of seatbelts and the Serenity and Unity are beyond my budget), the PleasureWay's (the interior trim of the Lexor is SO sleek and pretty but I do not care for the bathroom upon entering), the Roadtrek's (again, I don't like the bathroom location).

It is funny how (as Wingeezer mentioned) it is different strokes for different folks. He and better half hated the Aktiv, I loved it. They found it cramped, I found it surprisingly spacious (especially as compared to Airstream), some would not want a cassette toilet, I can abide that because I like the layout. I thought the fit and finish looked great, but Wingeezer disagreed. There may be some confirmation bias going on.

Per BBQ's suggestion, I joined the Aktiv Facebook group. Reading through posts over there and getting a bit scared off by a couple of horror stories. But also seeing many happy campers. Ugh, this is so hard. I've wanted to make a move for years - feeling so ready, found the perfect layout, love the modern feel, and now nervous - what if I get a problem unit?

I have watched most of the Russo's videos (and bought the book!) and in part that is why we really wanted to see the Aktiv ourselves.

As you say, it seems to work fine for them. Cynic that I am though, I rather wonder to what extent if any they are subsidised by Hymer! (I don't know that they are at all - I just wonder )


I think in the end only you can decide what's best for you and what isn't in terms of layout, then do the best analysis you can on cost versus quality and read as much as you can about owners comments (not saes pitches!) and at that point go with your gut feeling - which you seem to be doing!

In deciding to seriously consider switching to a B for our trailer I have been joining as many forums and reading as many owners' comments as I can on the different makes and models and finding many things I would never have thought about. I don't get too heavily influenced by any one pro or con sentimet by try to judge what the majority are saying

Just as I do when using the RV park reviews website when trying to select campgrounds to visit!

I should have done that before we bought our Airstream trailer ten years ago and I would have been a lot wiser! May have bought it ayway and we still like it - just that as we get older I am finding it and the large truck a bit of a handful that we don't really need.

One thing to be wary of though in looking at owners' forums though is that you will start to think the vehicle in question is rubbish - so many complaints of poor quality, failures, etc.

The phenomenon is however that many people are only too ready to complain on forums about issues that they have, yet most people who are generally content and happy with their purchase say nothing, so you easily can get a disproportionate view of things.

So you just have to try to weigh things as best you can and go with your best assessment! You seem to be doing that and I don't doubt you wil be happy with the Akitv - you know you like the layout and you will have that 6 year warranty to fall back on should any seriously bad things happen! Six years is a long time!

Brian

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by indoorsy

Per BBQ's suggestion, I joined the Aktiv Facebook group. Reading through posts over there and getting a bit scared off by a couple of horror stories. But also seeing many happy campers. Ugh, this is so hard. I've wanted to make a move for years - feeling so ready, found the perfect layout, love the modern feel, and now nervous - what if I get a problem unit?

Even though the Activ 1.0 is on my short list, I have to admit that the one that I test drove early last spring had a significant number of QC issues. (kitchen drawer already broken, rear window frame falling off, screen door already off track, skylight frame falling off and screen off-track.) And I was the first customer in the rig as it had JUST arrived from the factory late afternoon the day before. Now all of that was fixable and probably being picky. But my first thought was to be shocked that they let it leave the factory like that. Customers can bust things up, but I was the first customer.

I drove a second one at the end of last summer at a different dealer and it had no obvious issues. Had Hymer upped their game or had the dealer been more efficient at fixing things before a customer got in it?

The serious problems that have occurred are with the Ecotrek Lithium batteries and the voltstart system. But both of these are options that can be avoided by ordering without (which is what I would do). I would get AGMs, solar, and the underhood generator... all easy to deal with and rarely have issues.

The trick is to decide what you need... and what you don't need.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Wingeezer

I have watched most of the Russo's videos (and bought the book!) and in part that is why we really wanted to see the Aktiv ourselves.

As you say, it seems to work fine for them. Cynic that I am though, I rather wonder to what extent if any they are subsidised by Hymer! (I don't know that they are at all - I just wonder )
....

Brian

The Aktiv is provided by Hymer to the Russos for the period of one year.

The agreement is, they are not doing a sales pitch or RV review. They can say anything about anything (ie the truth) without repercussion.

My read is, they don't like the cassette toilet.
They are stuck with it; since the rig is free, they are making the best out of it.

[bobojay]

Originally Posted by BBQ

Don't mean to shatter your illusion...

but the awesome roadtreks are the old roadtreks (pre-2008 ).
The recent batches suffered embarrassing failures and uncaring customer follow-ups.
They are trying; I hope they have pulled their socks up and made improvments.

What BBQ said. Using their customers as beta testers the last 5 years or so. Pre-2008's the best by far since it was the original owner. Lots of issues nowadays