Thor Rize class B

[MsNomer]

Originally Posted by LeeThe

There are many mom & pop upfitters around America and Canada who do Promaster van conversions (and Transit and Sprinter of course), but none of them are self-contained RVs--the level of systems integration required seems to be beyond what a mom & pop shop can do.

There are folks DIY'ing fully self-contained PM's with tanks, propane, lithium, the whole 9 yards. There are also pro shops building them. It’s just that the sparse "adventure" vans get more attention.

[LeeThe]

Originally Posted by MsNomer

There are folks DIY'ing fully self-contained PM's with tanks, propane, lithium, the whole 9 yards. There are also pro shops building them. It’s just that the sparse "adventure" vans get more attention.

What I've seen are only fully self-contained by means of calling a slide-out Porta Potti and an external shower the equivalent of a bathroom, and with big jugs under the sink that you have to pull out and refill from a faucet somewhere, then lug back to your van. I call t his a lack of systems integration. Which is tough to achieve unless you're a real manufacturer with a production line.

Whenever I've gone beyond a checklist of features and functions this is what I've found. Which makes for a more labor-intensive, less home-like camping experience than you get with factory effort like our Axion. And while a DIY'er can buy most of our components and appliances and make the cabinets if they have carpentry skills, it would take a lot of effort to reach our level of integration.

I note that our Axion's fresh and blackwater tanks were fabricated by 2D printing AFAIK. Those would be tough to replicated or to design and fabricate your own. I sure haven't seen anyone doing that. But if you know of a 136" High Roof Promaster self-contained conversion from a mom & pop shop please provide a link to it. I'd love to see it.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by LeeThe

What I've seen are only fully self-contained by means of calling a slide-out Porta Potti and an external shower the equivalent of a bathroom, and with big jugs under the sink that you have to pull out and refill from a faucet somewhere, then lug back to your van. I call t his a lack of systems integration. Which is tough to achieve unless you're a real manufacturer with a production line.
Whenever I've gone beyond a checklist of features and functions this is what I've found. Which makes for a more labor-intensive, less home-like camping experience than you get with factory effort like our Axion. And while a DIY'er can buy most of our components and appliances and make the cabinets if they have carpentry skills, it would take a lot of effort to reach our level of integration.
I note that our Axion's fresh and blackwater tanks were fabricated by 2D printing AFAIK. Those would be tough to replicated or to design and fabricate your own. I sure haven't seen anyone doing that. But if you know of a 136" High Roof Promaster self-contained conversion from a mom & pop shop please provide a link to it. I'd love to see it.

More often than not the final design goals are reflected in final product not ability or lack off integration skills, for mom-and-pop shop or for DIYs. For example, I don’t have inside shower nor black tank because I didn’t want it. 360-degree windows and ease cleaning of black tank were my musts so window blocking shower nor blank tank weren’t on the final list.

3D (not 2D) printed tanks would be a horrible misapplication of manufacturing technology, 3D has its place but it is not in manufacturing tanks. If you need a complex shape tanks use a rotomolding technology.
It is unfortunate that EU is 15 years ahead of NA RV in designs, costs, and qualities and I would call lack of modern manufacturing technologies a major reason.

“Bob Wheeler from Airstream admitted that “Europe is about 15 years ahead of us in terms of design.” He blames market forces, saying that companies need to take more risks and think creatively about what consumers want.””

https://archive.curbed.com/2019/5/31...e-camping-tips

https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...try-10160.html

[CalVan]

Originally Posted by avanti

SNIP
I could go on, but suffice it to say that the inherent structural advantages of B-van construction does little to deter a sufficiently-determined upfitter from selling total junk. I don't mean to spoil your enjoyment of your rig, and it is true that it is possible to keep up with these issues (I certainly did--our van was better when we sold it then it was when we bought it new). But, it is a mistake to understate the consequences of lousy builds.

For the reasons you mentioned, I wanted to find out if the Rize was by Hymer USA hoping that it would be better than Thor. Thor has such a bad reputation that I thought anything else would be better than the Sequence/Tellaro. Maybe it's too early to tell, but many owners of the Sequence/Tellaro seem to be happy and the issues they run into are mostly minor or pilot error. I have found an individual who would build me a van. He did a great with his own camper.

[MsNomer]

George is correct. Self-builds often aren’t loaded with tanks, etc., because the builders don’t want them, not because they can’t build them.

The full builds are generally off my radar, but I "watched" this beauty get built on the PM forum. I can’t find its specs, but the builder flinched at nothing. He has since turned to van building full-time.

https://newatlas.com/ryda-van-ram-pr...version/51747/

http://www.rydawell.com/vanbuilds

Then there's jostalli at masteroverland.com The showcased one has a composting toilet, but I assure you it’s because he or the customer wanted a composting toilet. I also "watched" his first build.

https://www.promasterforum.com/threa...00-sold.92942/ is another unusual build. Cassette toilet was his choice: "There is no need to find a dump station and mess with a sewage hose."

So I think what we are seeing is that people who build their own don’t feel confined to "the way it's supposed to be" and are more inclined to tailor the build to their own preferences.

[CalVan]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Obviously, since EGHNA are the only Hymer products currently seen in the US. (except for a few European owners who bring theirs over)SNIP.)

What's obvious to you is not so to others who are just getting into class B. Also, it is not EGHNA, but EHGNA. Once again, for the newbies.

[LeeThe]

Rotomolding it is. But it's a difference that makes no difference methinks. In practical terms it still means that while I can replace most parts in my orphan Axion with off the shelf items the two tanks are not; I couldn't swap in an off the shelf item; and so replacing either of my tanks would be expensive and difficult and time-consuming. Sportsmobile can do any kind of toilet you want, but they're no mom & pop shop, though they do custom jobs all the time.

It's also an example of why mom & pop manufacturers put in cassette or composting toilets. Because those are off the shelf items. And if one of those are what you want, great. If you want a standard toilet/dump hose arrangement, it still sounds like something a mom & pop shop can't do.

And our Axion is, as far as can tell, a modern German design, albeit one that's adapted to the North American market.

Cassette/composting toilets don't require the level of systems integration ours did. One advantage they do have that you didn't mention was that Carado had to eliminate the spare tire under the van to make room for the black/gray water tank. OTOH even without a black water tank I'd still have needed a gray water tank and probably would still have lose the spare tire.

Now you could argue that standard RV toilets with dump hoses are obsolete and no one would want one. I don't know whether that's true or not, but I'm doubtful. I'd associate cassette and composting toilets with adventure vans personally. Though I agree that American RVs in general seem to harken to another era. But my own experience is only with German designs FWIW.

I also know nothing personally about Thor build quality, but as a daily participant in the Facebook Axion forum, I've seen all the problems and they sure exist, but I've also seen so much loyalty to our RV that it has keep the selling price remarkably high for an orphan van. Time will tell more--the oldest Axions aren't more than 5 years old--but so far it seems like the build quality issues have been manageable.

I still think that if someone brought a Promaster to a mom & pop shop and asked them to replicate my Axion, the shop either couldn't do it or would have to charge a small fortune to do so. If you don't want the Axion's feature set and integration, great. All the mom & pop shops will serve your needs.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by LeeThe

…………………….
I still think that if someone brought a Promaster to a mom & pop shop and asked them to replicate my Axion, the shop either couldn't do it or would have to charge a small fortune to do so. If you don't want the Axion's feature set and integration, great. All the mom & pop shops will serve your needs.

Really?

George out.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by CalVan

What's obvious to you is not so to others who are just getting into class B. Also, it is not EGHNA, but EHGNA. Once again, for the newbies.

Which is, of course, why I was educating you. So the newbies would get accurate information... typos excepted.

And our Axion is, as far as can tell, a modern German design, albeit one that's adapted to the North American market.

Actually it isn't really German. My 2004 GWV Classic Supreme was a "side sofa floor plan" with a rear bath/passenger side galley... and that was just one of 5 or 6 floor plans that were available at Great West Vans in Manitoba in the 90s and 00s. It was likely also available in other Canadian and American vans at the time.

I seriously considered the Axion because I loved how it drove when it first appeared, but I was a bit put-off by the terrible quality control of the first Carados. (they did improve) Not surprising when the CEO was on Facebook bragging about how they could build one in a couple hours. I figured that I could strip out the galley side cabinetry and upgrade and re-design it. But the larger Simplicity with the 5 cf fridge won the day. lol

But now age is pushing me to go to something smaller... like perhaps a private conversion of the 1500 Promaster with 118" wheelbase

[LeeThe]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Which is, of course, why I was educating you. So the newbies would get accurate information... typos excepted.


Actually it isn't really German. My 2004 GWV Classic Supreme was a "side sofa floor plan" with a rear bath/passenger side galley... and that was just one of 5 or 6 floor plans that were available at Great West Vans in Manitoba in the 90s and 00s. It was likely also available in other Canadian and American vans at the time.

I seriously considered the Axion because I loved how it drove when it first appeared, but I was a bit put-off by the terrible quality control of the first Carados. (they did improve) Not surprising when the CEO was on Facebook bragging about how they could build one in a couple hours. I figured that I could strip out the galley side cabinetry and upgrade and re-design it. But the larger Simplicity with the 5 cf fridge won the day. lol

But now age is pushing me to go to something smaller... like perhaps a private conversion of the 1500 Promaster with 118" wheelbase

You had an option--a longer van--that we didn't have. You do know the 118" Promaster doesn't offer a high roof version, so that would mandate a poptop--which would also mandate popping up the top to stand in it. We had that with our VW Eurovan Camper, and it worked OK. However, it also had a 136" wheelbase and 17 ft. overall length. We thought that was the minimum for camping for two for 20 years, but then I've seen camper vans based on the Ford Transit City and Promaster City, so its obviously possible.

[VocalVirgo]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Hymer didn’t go under, Hymer North America / Roadtrek division went under thanks to Roadtrek management and lack of overview by Hymer. Hymer EU was sold to Thor with exception of Hymer North America / Roadtrek. Hymer North America / Roadtrek remains were purchased by French Rapido which owns Westfalia.

https://rvlifestyle.com/roadtrek-hymer-scandal/

Correct, I should have said "EHGNA" went under.
I did not like their Class B Vans (I lied, I loved the Axion floorplan).
I did however love the travel trailers we were supposed to get... Oh, they were so nice.

[GeeMoney]

Shots of the Rize. Rear wet bath is an option

[GeeMoney]

Options and specs

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by LeeThe

You had an option--a longer van--that we didn't have.

My limit was the length of my driveway and the 2500 left me with a foot in front and a foot behind.

Originally Posted by LeeThe

You do know the 118" Promaster doesn't offer a high roof version, so that would mandate a poptop--which would also mandate popping up the top to stand in it. We had that with our VW Eurovan Camper, and it worked OK. However, it also had a 136" wheelbase and 17 ft. overall length. We thought that was the minimum for camping for two for 20 years, but then I've seen camper vans based on the Ford Transit City and Promaster City, so its obviously possible.

Of course I know that it has no high roof, which is clear on the Ram website. Nor will I get a poptop as it wouldn't be needed. The interior is 5'6" and with no need for extreme insulation, the discussed conversion would leave 5'4" for most of the interior... which is how tall I am and it is just for me. I also looked at the City/Connect/Metris/Pacifica etc, all of which would need a pop-top which is an expensive addition and not really an option for my usage and bad shoulders.

The 1500 118 wb is obviously the best option for me as my presumably final RV.

[VocalVirgo]

I think the 18M is great. If you prefer the smaller van, a little less freshwater capacity and a cassette toilet (I'd love that in the Sequence 20K), and a few other small deletes, then this is a great alternative to the bigger and $10K more expensive Tellaro/Sequence. I'm so happy to see more and more options. I've had a 136" with a poptop (SMBW Nightmare) and a 159. So, I'm looking forward to the 159 EXT. Just shy of 21', It can still fit in almost every parking spot. And if you back in and let that extra length hang over the curb, you won't stick out any more than the regular 159 .

[AliceRV]

The inverter at 1,000 w seems small but enough to run the microwave at least.

[AliceRV]

Rec Van called me today, someone ordered one and is available for viewing. Unfortunately I am busy and the new owners will pick up before I am available. I don't think I can spend that much money on something sight unseen. I asked about additional seating, I don't think the sideways couch seating is good for transport.

[GeeMoney]

Did Rec Van happen to mention if the ordered unit has the rear bath?

[AliceRV]

Originally Posted by GeeMoney

Did Rec Van happen to mention if the ordered unit has the rear bath?

Yes the sales person said it did. Of course I won't be able to see it before it gets pick up by the new owner.

[wny-pat]

Originally Posted by AliceRV

I don't think the sideways couch seating is good for transport.

The only rear seating I've seen in a RV that I consider safe for transport was some of what I've seen in large diesel pusher conversions. The RV industry seems to think it is okay to mount a seat cushion on a particle board box and call that passenger seating. Throw a seat belt around it and say it meets code.