Thor Rize class B

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by AliceRV

Solis was what we are interested in but then we found even a shorter van. There will probably be only 2 of us, our 20 something kids probably won't join us. But I am glad you are driving the Solis daily, we plan to use it as a 2nd car.

I use my current Simplicity SRT as my only vehicle. It is 19'7" and is pretty easy to get around and find parking. Parking garages are out, and I haven't attempted to parallel park though I have friends with them who do. I do check out google views when I am going somewhere new to make sure that there is a parking lot.

[rockymtnb]

Originally Posted by AliceRV

we saw a very small 17.5' van made by Thor called the Rize that will soon have a bathroom in the back. I tried to find out more about this Rize and the salesperson said it's exclusive to the Rec Van

Thor's Rize and Scout 18T models don't appear to have any bathroom at all. Even a Porta_Potti is BYOT. They appear to be targeted at the daily driver campervan market similar to Pleasureway's Tofino. Of course Thor may be planning other floorplans of these models in the future.

Thor Rize/Scout 18T walk-thru begins at 12:20 in this General RV video:

https://youtu.be/C_wKV2j1aik?t=743

[rockymtnb]

Interesting that Thor includes a $249 Pelonis portable AC unit tucked away in a cabinet for air conditioning...

https://www.menards.com/main/heating...7111029&ipos=3

[CalVan]

Originally Posted by rockymtnb

Interesting that Thor includes a $249 Pelonis portable AC unit tucked away in a cabinet for air conditioning...

https://www.menards.com/main/heating...7111029&ipos=3

Yup. Thor must have been watching some DIYers on Youtube. I've seen many self builders installing mini split, $125 window AC in a very clever way, and protable AC units. The large cabinet in the back in such a short van like the Rize doesn't make much sense. This is a Thor design, not a Hymer. Many who looked at the Rize or its industrial twin Scope are asking for a toilet/bath. Many Euro vans built on the Promaster 136WB (17' 9" or 540cm and thus 540 series by various European companies) have a wet bath and a front lounge area.

[AliceRV]

Originally Posted by CalVan

Yup. Thor must have been watching some DIYers on Youtube. I've seen many self builders installing mini split, $125 window AC in a very clever way, and protable AC units. The large cabinet in the back in such a short van like the Rize doesn't make much sense. This is a Thor design, not a Hymer. Many who looked at the Rize or its industrial twin Scope are asking for a toilet/bath. Many Euro vans built on the Promaster 136WB (17' 9" or 540cm and thus 540 series by various European companies) have a wet bath and a front lounge area.

There was a drawing of next version with bathroom. Salesperson says its the 2022 model but will be available before then.

[CalVan]

[mumkin]

So what is the difference between the Rize and the Scope? Floor plans look exactly the same and I can't read any of the specs.

[AliceRV]

Thanks for the pic. We weren't interested because it didn't have a bathroom and didn't take pictures. But don't think we'll buy right away, sounds like there is a wait. Might wait until this one is available. Looks like there are seatbelts so we can sleep 4, seat 4 in 17'9" which would be perfect.

[rockymtnb]

Originally Posted by mumkin

So what is the difference between the Rize and the Scope? Floor plans look exactly the same and I can't read any of the specs.

That's typical for Thor, they generally offer an identical (or nearly identical) twin for the same model, but under a different model name. That allows Thor to segment dealers in larger markets so they each can claim to have 'exclusive' models.

For example Thor markets these model twins under different names:

Scout / Rize - 18ft Promaster
Sequence / Tellaro - 21ft Promaster
Sanctuary / Tranquility - 19.5 ft Sprinter 4wd
Compass / Gemini - 23ft Transit AWD Class C (marketed as B+)

That pattern continues up through their Class C and Class A lines.

[mtmdatlanta]

The Rize/ Scope 18T does look similar to the Carado Axion in layout. Might be better constructed (it wouldn't be too difficult). Good layout for a single person.

[Dk_SoCal]

Hi all, I’m really excited about the Rize. It’s a 2022 model.

Here’s a note from Thor:


“---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Coach Link <coachlink@tmcrv.com>
Date: Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 5:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]A new Sales Advisor - Coach Link form has been submitted

Good morning,

Thank you for your interest in Thor Motor Coach!

The Rize is not yet a full production unit. We have only built a few prototypes. It is going to be a part of our 2022 model year lineup and there will be more information available on our website closer to May 2021 when the product is ready to roll out. At this point in time there are many details still being finalized for the 2022 models so we do not yet have any information to share with the public.

I hope that helps.”

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by mtmdatlanta

The Rize/ Scope 18T does look similar to the Carado Axion in layout. Might be better constructed (it wouldn't be too difficult). Good layout for a single person.

Don't get your expectations too high. Thor has a worse reputation for quality that the US Hymer did. When it was announced that Thor was buying Hymer, current owners sighed and said... we wondered if it could become worse, and here it is.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by rockymtnb

That's typical for Thor, they generally offer an identical (or nearly identical) twin for the same model, but under a different model name. That allows Thor to segment dealers in larger markets so they each can claim to have 'exclusive' models.

For example Thor markets these model twins under different names:

Scout / Rize - 18ft Promaster
Sequence / Tellaro - 21ft Promaster
Sanctuary / Tranquility - 19.5 ft Sprinter 4wd
Compass / Gemini - 23ft Transit AWD Class C (marketed as B+)

That pattern continues up through their Class C and Class A lines.

I find that so utterly ridiculous and it certainly doesn't make good business sense. Same silliness from Winnebago with Winnie/Itaska doing the same models only with different fabric patterns. I had been told that it was because Winnie bought Itaska and most dealers had sold one or the other. But that doesn't seem to be the reasoning with Thor

BTW... it's not "Scout" - it's "Scope" lol

[CalVan]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Don't get your expectations too high. Thor has a worse reputation for quality that the US Hymer did. When it was announced that Thor was buying Hymer, current owners sighed and said... we wondered if it could become worse, and here it is.

Probably you meant Hymer North America once based in Canada as Hymer USA hasn't made anything yet. The 20 or so German engineers couldn't come over here because of the pandemic last year or the year before.

[LeeThe]

Originally Posted by AliceRV

Solis was what we are interested in but then we found even a shorter van. There will probably be only 2 of us, our 20 something kids probably won't join us. But I am glad you are driving the Solis daily, we plan to use it as a 2nd car.

We've owned a Carado Axion we bought new, for several years. The Thor Scope (not the Rize) appears to copy our RV's layout. You can find out more about the Axion on the Carado Axion Facebook page. It's no longer made, but a few used ones come on the market every month or so. You're welcome to look at ours if you like. We're near Stanford. We're happy with ours BTW and never plan to sell it. Most Axion owners feel the same. Usually owners only sell them when their life circumstances change--like, one owner is moving to Portugal...another to Costa Rica. Things like that. And while it's small, we moved up to ours from a VW Eurovan Camper that we had for 20 years. So from our perspecti9ve it's quite spacious. Someone downsizing from a Class A would feel differently no doubt.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by CalVan

Probably you meant Hymer North America once based in Canada as Hymer USA hasn't made anything yet. The 20 or so German engineers couldn't come over here because of the pandemic last year or the year before.

Obviously, since EGHNA are the only Hymer products currently seen in the US. (except for a few European owners who bring theirs over)

That doesn't change the fact the Thor has one of the worst reputations in the RV business as far as quality, warranty coverage, and customer support. The question is whether they will allow the Germans to set the standards or force them to squash quality for quantity as these large corporations consistently do. Stockholders win over us owners every time.

That is what killed Roadtrek along with Hymer Europe's mismanagement. (needn't worry about the Hymer family who laughed all the way to the bank with their proceeds after having screwed all of their North American suppliers, employees, and customers.)

[LeeThe]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Obviously, since EGHNA are the only Hymer products currently seen in the US. (except for a few European owners who bring theirs over)

That doesn't change the fact the Thor has one of the worst reputations in the RV business as far as quality, warranty coverage, and customer support. The question is whether they will allow the Germans to set the standards or force them to squash quality for quantity as these large corporations consistently do. Stockholders win over us owners every time.

That is what killed Roadtrek along with Hymer Europe's mismanagement. (needn't worry about the Hymer family who laughed all the way to the bank with their proceeds after having screwed all of their North American suppliers, employees, and customers.)

Still, it's the build quality of Class C and A RVs that's really critical. With Class B's at least our RVs' bodies are built by the van manufacturer--in this case, Ram--and the appliances are often very good. What you're left with is the cabinetry/assembly/wiring basically.

Fixing those things cost us around $1,500 with our Hymer NA Carado Axion. But we paid something like $20-30K less than a well-built Class B at the least. So the math looks pretty good. And honestly if the price had been any higher we couldn't have affiorded it. Ditto the iffy warranty. You still have good warranties from Chrysler and your various appliances/subsystems.

Bottom line that we have no regrets over buying our Axion, even though your points are correct. With the new Thor product I'd factor in the cost of dealing with Thor's quality shortcuts. The math still might work out in your favor.

One more thing is that as far as 18 ft. self-contained RVs go, other than a used Axion or an antique Roadtrek Popular 170, the new Thors have no competition as long as you have to have a van that length, as we did. For us 3 years ago, it was the Axion or not get a self-contained RV.

So now in 2021 it looks like someone with our set of needs will be able to choose between a new Thor Scope (not the Rize) or a used Axion. i don't know which would be a better choice, since I don't know anything about the Scope except the van (same as ours) and the floorplan (pretty much same as ours). Used Axions are rare but findable. One comes up every month or two on the Facebook Carado Axion forum. It does mean your first trip in one may be after flying to the other side of the continent and driving your Axion back home. Being able to get a Scope from a dealer nearby could be an attractive alternative to that.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by LeeThe

Still, it's the build quality of Class C and A RVs that's really critical. With Class B's at least our RVs' bodies are built by the van manufacturer--in this case, Ram--and the appliances are often very good. What you're left with is the cabinetry/assembly/wiring basically.

Is that all?
On our erstwhile Airstream Interstate, the cabinetry warped, cheaply glued plastic slides fell off, laminates peeled off, etc. Poor assembly led to leaks everywhere, which in turn led to rotten wood all over the place, which constantly had to be replaced. Badly-crimped wiring caused all kinds of stuff to randomly stop working, leading to repeated treasure hunts. Our van was indeed built by Mercedes, but that didn't stop the upfitter from drilling holes everywhere that were never properly treated and soon started to rust badly enough that this alone drove me to sell the van before the maintenance became prohibitively expensive.

I could go on, but suffice it to say that the inherent structural advantages of B-van construction does little to deter a sufficiently-determined upfitter from selling total junk. I don't mean to spoil your enjoyment of your rig, and it is true that it is possible to keep up with these issues (I certainly did--our van was better when we sold it then it was when we bought it new). But, it is a mistake to understate the consequences of lousy builds.

[GeorgeRa]

Since practically finished conversion in 2014 I had one water leak behind the galley. It was my mistake of using a wrong size clamp. No warped panels, no electrical issues, no loose bolts, so it can be done.

[LeeThe]

Originally Posted by avanti

Is that all?
On our erstwhile Airstream Interstate, the cabinetry warped, cheaply glued plastic slides fell off, laminates peeled off, etc. Poor assembly led to leaks everywhere, which in turn led to rotten wood all over the place, which constantly had to be replaced. Badly-crimped wiring caused all kinds of stuff to randomly stop working, leading to repeated treasure hunts. Our van was indeed built by Mercedes, but that didn't stop the upfitter from drilling holes everywhere that were never properly treated and soon started to rust badly enough that this alone drove me to sell the van before the maintenance became prohibitively expensive.

I could go on, but suffice it to say that the inherent structural advantages of B-van construction does little to deter a sufficiently-determined upfitter from selling total junk. I don't mean to spoil your enjoyment of your rig, and it is true that it is possible to keep up with these issues (I certainly did--our van was better when we sold it then it was when we bought it new). But, it is a mistake to understate the consequences of lousy builds.

Before getting our Axion we had a VW Eurovan Camper (converted by Winnebago) for 20 years with remarkably few problems. Of course that's a far simpler upfit but it did have a poptop. We did have problems with the sorts of things you cite but far fewer in number and scope. and we were able to sell it for half what we'd paid for it new after 20 years--pretty good ROI. And we had it for over twice as long as you had yours.

However, I admit that we live in the mildest climate on Earth (Mediterranean climate zone), which stresses our vehicles a lot less than of those parked in the snow belt, Tornado Alley etc. And our Winnebago conversion was done in 1997. Perhaps that was before the RV industry's tradition of bad builds was established? Also Winnebago did their Eurovan conversions under contract for VW, so I'm sure VW had a say in build quality. And one member of the Facebook Axion forum who's a full timer and put a lot of miles on their Axion said they had to have the cabinetry rebuilt. I suppose it also matters whether you go down rutted dirt roads a lot.

Still, however bad the problems are of Class B owners, I've seen plenty of older Class Cs and As being used by homeless people around here, and many are rolling wreckage. A cheaply slapped-together wooden frame in addition to all the upfit issues you cited has got to make long-term ownership problems even worse and not remediable either.

I guess we'll see what sorts of long term problems EHGNA bequeathed us before they went belly-up. Fortunately the Facebook forum for our orphan RVs is very active with a lot of full-timers giving us the benefit of their higher-mileage experience.

And while you had lots of alternatives at many different price points for your type of Class B RV, those of us who have to have an 18 ft. self contained RV only had one choice available--an Axion--in N. America--and now, perhaps, still only one choice in a new RV plus maybe a used Axion. So we have nowhere else to go. None of the prestige RV makers make an 18 ft. self-contained RV. Nor have any announced one in the future either AFAIK.

The only other alternative that I know of would be a Sportsmobile--with an 18 month wait for your RV and a price point way out of our budget range. There are many mom & pop upfitters around America and Canada who do Promaster van conversions (and Transit and Sprinter of course), but none of them are self-contained RVs--the level of systems integration required seems to be beyond what a mom & pop shop can do.

So our takeaway from the negative experiences of folks like you is that we have to be vigilant and proactive about nipping maintenance issues in the bud before they become really expensive.

And to live where there's a minimum of weather...