Thor Dazzle/Twist

[rockymtnb]

Thor has introduced a new entry level Class B under the Dazzle and Twist model names (who comes up with these ).

Based on the 21ft extended Promaster 3500 chassis, Dazzle and Twist feature traditional rear sofa bed (2JB) and pull-out dinette (2AB) floorplans. Features include multiplex wiring and control system, cassette toilets, 1000 watt inverter, microwave, 190w solar, Onan QG2800 generator, ShowerMiser water saver, prewiring for satellite and cell boost, and optional pop-top sleeping area.

Among the changes made to simplify or cut costs compared to the Sequence and Tellaro:

• Truma Combi Eco (no shore electric mode)
• Awning deleted
• Flat-front cabinets (vs Technoform curved)
• Zip-up window shades (similar to Solis)
• Weatherproof woven seating (vs Ultraleather)
• No TV includes, prewired for satellite and cable

Dazzle/Twist pricing starts at $122k, undercutting Winnebago's Solis PX entry level Promaster 3500 offering by $18k. However Solis provides a rear flex bed with gear garage layout, a useful floorplan often preferred by families and outdoor enthusiasts. The Dazzle/Twist floorplans are much more traditional in comparison.

[booster]

It is still hard to comprehend how an entry level Promaster class b can start at $122K


We saw RV show special Travatos for just over 50K when they first came out.

[rockymtnb]

A few more Thor model additions and floorplans for 2023:

Thor Rize and Scope:
18G floorplan with rear bath and full width pull-out dinette bed. Replaces previous 18T with partial side pull-out bed.

Thor Sanctuary and Tranquility Transit AWD:
Ford Transit 20ft AWD Ecoboost gas versions of the Sprinter 4wd Sanctuary/Tranquility models (which continue to be offered).
All Sanctuary/Tranquility models are now updated with 400ah lithium, 3000w inverter and secondary alternator in place of the original Onan generators.

[ChicagoTom]

[QUOTE=booster;142461]It is still hard to comprehend how an entry level Promaster class b can start at $122K

Why, it's WAY better than the Mercedes that spends more time in the shop than on the road. More and more manufacturers are breaking ties with MB. You couldn't pay me to own a newer MB, unless I was allowed to sell it.

[booster]

[QUOTE=ChicagoTom;142601]

Originally Posted by booster

It is still hard to comprehend how an entry level Promaster class b can start at $122K

Why, it's WAY better than the Mercedes that spends more time in the shop than on the road. More and more manufacturers are breaking ties with MB. You couldn't pay me to own a newer MB, unless I was allowed to sell it.

But MB is not considered an entry level RV either so not a decent comparison for pricing. The RVs mentioned are considered entry level and on the Promaster which have been lower cost chassis since the beginning. Pricing is about double the entry level Travato pricing when first offered in 2014/2015. Travato was pretty much the first entry level van and much less money than the Fords, Chevies and MB based vans at that time.

[ChicagoTom]

[QUOTE=booster;142602]

Originally Posted by ChicagoTom

But MB is not considered an entry level RV either so not a decent comparison for pricing. The RVs mentioned are considered entry level and on the Promaster which have been lower cost chassis since the beginning. Pricing is about double the entry level Travato pricing when first offered in 2014/2015. Travato was pretty much the first entry level van and much less money than the Fords, Chevies and MB based vans at that time.

LOL Check out the new Airstreams. They too have had it with MB. Are you calling that an entry too? https://www.airstream.com/touring-coaches/rangeline/

[booster]

[QUOTE=ChicagoTom;142603]

Originally Posted by booster

LOL Check out the new Airstreams. They too have had it with MB. Are you calling that an entry too? https://www.airstream.com/touring-coaches/rangeline/

They probably are for Airstream which has always been considered, rightly or not, a premium builder. Still a lot cheaper than their MB vans but not into the general market low end entry level like the vans this thread is talking about. Prodmaster is generally the lowest price chassis for RVs across the board for the manufacturers, but that doesn't mean that all of them would be the same, and lowest in the market, price. This discussion is about a specific model that was compared to another similar model so that is what the comments are about. Confusing the issue with "whatabouts" is not a part of the discussion, IMO.

[ChicagoTom]

[QUOTE=booster;142604]

Originally Posted by ChicagoTom

They probably are for Airstream which has always been considered, rightly or not, a premium builder. Still a lot cheaper than their MB vans but not into the general market low end entry level like the vans this thread is talking about. Prodmaster is generally the lowest price chassis for RVs across the board for the manufacturers, but that doesn't mean that all of them would be the same, and lowest in the market, price. This discussion is about a specific model that was compared to another similar model so that is what the comments are about. Confusing the issue with "whatabouts" is not a part of the discussion, IMO.

"Confusing the issue with "whatabouts" is not a part of the discussion" Who says it's not part of the discussion? Sorry it took so long to reply. I was out enjoying my day and didn't have time for 24/7 replies on an internet forum.

[@Michael]

Originally Posted by rockymtnb

A few more Thor model additions and floorplans for 2023:

Thor Rize and Scope:
18G floorplan with rear bath and full width pull-out dinette bed. Replaces previous 18T with partial side pull-out bed.

Thor Sanctuary and Tranquility Transit AWD:
Ford Transit 20ft AWD Ecoboost gas versions of the Sprinter 4wd

And the Tellaro, apparently positioned a bit upscale from Twist/Dazzle and a bit closer to Airstreams Rangeline.

I doubt that there is a wholesale abandonment of the Mercedes chassis. More likely that mfg's are leveraging the lower cost Ram chassis to fill in gaps in their offerings.

[Davydd]

My first Sprinter Pleasure-way Class B was $56,000 in 2005. I thought that was costly at the time. How much is a bare bones Promaster compared to a bare bones Sprinter to start out? I doubt it is significant to the overall cost of today's Class Bs other than Promasters are more designed for cost savings generally in the build outs. At least they have that option over most Sprinter offerings. Class Bs are way more because of inflation and people having more desires in the build outs. More battery power, lithium, solar, compressor refrigerators, macerators, mult-plex lighting and control panels, custom builds, etc. were not much available if at all in 2005. In 2005 what you got in a Class B was pretty much all the same. The only difference was Chevy or Sprinter. Inflation is the most significant difference especially in the build out.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by @Michael

I doubt that there is a wholesale abandonment of the Mercedes chassis.

I doubt it, too. But not for any deep reason. The RV industry (not uniquely) is driven largely by curb appeal. Upfitters offer designs and features that impress naive purchasers during a 30-minute demo in a dealer's parking lot. This tends to lead to superficial decisions about what to build. Examples range from pointlessly powerful A/C systems with heat pumps all the way down to built-in bud vases. Prominent on this list is the MB 3-pointed star. New purchasers love the idea of owning an RV that says "Mercedes Benz" on it. The realities of owning such a vehicle are a matter for another day--long after the decision is made.

[ChicagoTom]

It gets old seeing post about how MB is the better chassis, because of price. I'm still amazed at how someone can buy a new Class B and not investigate what a mess MB is. BTW, Chassis prices are all over the woodwork. This link shows them at the same cost. https://www.cars.com/research/compar...indow_van-2022

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

My first Sprinter Pleasure-way Class B was $56,000 in 2005. I thought that was costly at the time. How much is a bare bones Promaster compared to a bare bones Sprinter to start out? I doubt it is significant to the overall cost of today's Class Bs other than Promasters are more designed for cost savings generally in the build outs. At least they have that option over most Sprinter offerings. Class Bs are way more because of inflation and people having more desires in the build outs. More battery power, lithium, solar, compressor refrigerators, macerators, mult-plex lighting and control panels, custom builds, etc. were not much available if at all in 2005. In 2005 what you got in a Class B was pretty much all the same. The only difference was Chevy or Sprinter. Inflation is the most significant difference especially in the build out.

According to this site https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inf.../2005?amount=1 inflation total since 2005 is 52% which would put your $55K van at $83.6 so that is a chunk, but are there really another $43K worth of new features on an entry level van? Supply and demand and Roadtrek dropping out for a time made for a lot shortages and the manufacturers certainly took advantage of that to improve their margins it appears.


I also don't believe that MB will disappear from the RV market as this is not a cheap hobby to have so lots of well off buyers who cherish the high end reputation of MB, kind of like getting a big heavy Rolex watch.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by booster

According to this site https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inf.../2005?amount=1 inflation total since 2005 is 52% which would put your $55K van at $83.6 so that is a chunk, but are there really another $43K worth of new features on an entry level van? Supply and demand and Roadtrek dropping out for a time made for a lot shortages and the manufacturers certainly took advantage of that to improve their margins it appears.


I also don't believe that MB will disappear from the RV market as this is not a cheap hobby to have so lots of well off buyers who cherish the high end reputation of MB, kind of like getting a big heavy Rolex watch.

Do you believe that? I don't believe it is true in vehicles. My sticker price (MSRP) for my current Sprinter starting out as a cargo van was about equivalent to my totally built out 2005 Pleasure-way. There is absolutely no way today to upfit it to a Class B which would be about $100,000 total with that inflation and the current price of a Sprinter that I can tell you is not 52% inflation. That cheap Thor Dazzle/Twist was $122,000. What is the top of the line Pleasure-way today because that was what my 2005 was? That would be the true inflation value which I said people are demanding more as well.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Do you believe that? I don't believe it is true in vehicles. My sticker price (MSRP) for my current Sprinter starting out as a cargo van was about equivalent to my totally built out 2005 Pleasure-way. There is absolutely no way today to upfit it to a Class B which would be about $100,000 total with that inflation and the current price of a Sprinter that I can tell you is not 52% inflation. That cheap Thor Dazzle/Twist was $122,000. What is the top of the line Pleasure-way today because that was what my 2005 was? That would be the true inflation value which I said people are demanding more as well.

Can't say if it is accurate for vehicles or not, especially if you look at actual cost to produce the vehicles and not selling price. As I said, the manufacturers, both of the base vehicle and the RV section are likely making much higher margins now than in 2005 due to shortages and popularity of the products. Just because the charge twice as much doesn't necessarily mean that it cost them twice as much to build, IMO.

[Davydd]

My brother bought a Newmar Class A last year and said he would give it 5 years full-timing. Well he lasted just one year. He said he couldn't resist an offer of $60,000 more than he paid for it so he says. He got that because new ones in one year exceeded by a lot more than $60,000. I think he barely used it traveling and made his decision not to full-time already.

[Dave-DJ]

The van alone is going for 57k to 62K now in Feb. 2024.

[Dave-DJ]

Note the Dazzle and Twist models come with Ram's Nexen Roadian CT8 HL LT225/75R16 tires, the load rating is only 2,680 pounds, at 2,680 x4 = 10,720 pounds this is less than the load of the van loaded! The front tires takes most of the load and fail. Talk to three campers, they had the tread come off from 600 to 11k miles. Van needs 225/75R16C good to 3,195 pounds. Glad I found out, as I had the dealer put on C-Type-Load 121 tires before taking delivery of the van.

The V6, VVT, 3.6 Liter engine as the power and the transmission now an automatic, 9-Speed is smooth.

[MsNomer]

“ Note the Dazzle and Twist models come with Ram's Nexen Roadian CT8 HL LT225/75R16 tires, the load rating is only 2,680 pounds, at 2,680 x4 = 10,720 pounds this is less than the load of the van loaded!”

That should be criminal. What do they do with the C-rated tires the van comes from the factory with?

And how do they get away with 10,xxx when the load rating for the vehicle is 9,xxx?

[booster]

Originally Posted by MsNomer

“ Note the Dazzle and Twist models come with Ram's Nexen Roadian CT8 HL LT225/75R16 tires, the load rating is only 2,680 pounds, at 2,680 x4 = 10,720 pounds this is less than the load of the van loaded!”

That should be criminal. What do they do with the C-rated tires the van comes from the factory with?

And how do they get away with 10,xxx when the load rating for the vehicle is 9,xxx?

Yeah, something is not right here. GVWR of a single rear wheel Promaster is a bit over 9K so the tires should be capable. Of course there are bad tires out there and have been issues with class Bs in the past. I think it was on the Excel Fords.


The gross combined weight is 12K so that might be the confusion, but it is for pulling a trailer so doesn't effect the tire loading except for tongue weight in the rear.


Also, is a Promaster claess B really heavier in the front? That sounds unusual to me as I don't ever recall hearing that before. Front wheel drive cars tend to be, and probably empty Promasters, but I wonder about a built out class B being that way. Front tires take a beating in front drive vehicles in general because they do a majority of the turning force, braking force, and power force so that may be the confusion there. I think if the front or rear get to over 5000# then the tires might be overloaded depending on side to side balance.


I also just looked at tire rack and they don't list any 225-75-16 tires as load range C. There are also none that appeared to have a 121 rating with the ones I looked at being at 115/112S. Everything at the 2680# load rating is shown as a load range E not C.


So much odd information in this, it makes it impossible to tell what is going on.


Larger load rating would be nice but you probably would have to go up a size to do it.