The 4x4 thread

[Mfturner]

Winter tires worked surprisingly well on our front wheel drive Toyota sienna, but they wear fast in warm weather and I grew tired of the local garage mechanics breaking the threads on the studs from over tightening the nuts with air wrenches. So as a system I prefer all season radials with awd over winter tires that I have to swap outseasonally, not to mention that I won't get surprised in May with awd.

REV, sorry I wasn't clear, I was comparing a rwd Sprinter to a fwd Promaster. Granted that I didn't look at the Promaster's tires, they may have been worn which would make it an unfair comparison. But I suspect that a 4wd van would have been noticably better than either, my awd Element and my awd Lexus are both significantly better than either with all season tires, they are both more similar to my fwd Sienna with all season tires than different.

So for me on snow and sand, a 4wd remains interesting, no tire swapping required. The extra inches would help even in town over curbs and parking lot entrances and exits. I did get fitted cables for the snowy drive from PA to CO this Jan, but haven't tried them. It we get another decent snow this season I'll try them out for another data point.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

Thanks for sharing that, Davydd!

FWIW, we have had a 4WD F350 for twenty years and 200K miles. I have always felt like it would get me where I wanted to go under any kind of condition. Last year, we test drove a Roadtrek Sprinter 4WD. It made me nervous. Guess I would get used to it, but the CG is so high and the suspension is much softer than our truck that I felt uncomfortable going around curves. I've never seen one laying on its side so I'm sure they are perfectly safe.

Advanced RV made that video because customers were very much interested in 4WD and they wanted to be upfront with the capabilities. Most of their vans, as mentioned in the video, also have VB Air Suspension and they determined it was compatible. I think clearance is the primary goal of 4WD owners or ought to be. There is a definite advantage especially on departure angle. I've bottomed out numerous times with an extended body Sprinter on roads with drainage troughs at driveway entrances and once at an access ramp to a ferry. That's why I have a substantial skid plate.

[Phoebe3]

Originally Posted by Davydd

...I think clearance is the primary goal of 4WD owners or ought to be. There is a definite advantage especially on departure angle. I've bottomed out numerous times with an extended body Sprinter on roads with drainage troughs at driveway entrances and once at an access ramp to a ferry. That's why I have a substantial skid plate.

Our Transit has a substantial overhang, as well, and I fully expect to bottom out sometime in the near future. Some people are installing little metal wheels on the hitch - did you find a skid plate to be superior?

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

Our Transit has a substantial overhang, as well, and I fully expect to bottom out sometime in the near future. Some people are installing little metal wheels on the hitch - did you find a skid plate to be superior?

Our skid plate protects our batteries even though they are inclosed in a steel cage. The skid plate is substantial. I know people have installed wheels on an Advanced RV skid plate but I don't understand is that the wheels just reduce the clearance all the more. I would think wheels would protect bumpers and other things like electrical tow hookups.

Our skid plate mounted on steel braces protects the insulated battery box which has further steel protection. It also protects our three underfloor storage boxes behind the batteries. The skid plate is thick aluminum. And the skid plate lowers the clearance all the more but I think it is still 7-1/2".

[LosAngeles]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Advanced RV made that video because customers were very much interested in 4WD and they wanted to be upfront with the capabilities. Most of their vans, as mentioned in the video, also have VB Air Suspension and they determined it was compatible. I think clearance is the primary goal of 4WD owners or ought to be. There is a definite advantage especially on departure angle. I've bottomed out numerous times with an extended body Sprinter on roads with drainage troughs at driveway entrances and once at an access ramp to a ferry. That's why I have a substantial skid plate.

May I ask - is the skid plate you have at the front?

and - make and model?

are you happy with it?

John

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by LosAngeles

May I ask - is the skid plate you have at the front?

and - make and model?

are you happy with it?

John

I don't have a front skid plate. The front overhang does not change regardless of the length of the van. There have been many Advanced RV's with protective bull bars of all types from off the shelf to customization. You can see the many times on their website gallery page. I don't have one.

[teck13]

Originally Posted by Davydd

This is Advanced RV's video when they took in their first 4x4 Sprinters back in April, 2015. I believe they were the first to adapt them to Class B Sprinter RVs. They tested in two conditions, a newly melted snow field and in a Maple forest woods. They pretty much knew the results because I was in those same field maple sugaring and knew. It is interesting.

This is the WWII surplus jeep that pulled the van out. That's me and my wife. ARV puts its customer to work maple sugaring.

A very informative video from Advanced-RV. Thanks for posting it. My take-away is that the addition of 4X4 adds ground clearance, some noticeable and perhaps important amount of drive traction, and low and high gearing for more controllable steep climbs and descents. I know that as we seek a Class B van 4X4 is non-negotiable. Most of our travel will be out west where total vehicle height is less of an issue and obviously steep roads with snow are commonplace.

No surprise, it seems almost everyone agrees that 4X4 Sprinter Vans are not going to be appropriate for serious offloading and that is not our desire either. But we do need the ability get to remote trailheads in California, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, etc. Mainly what I have heard some call soft-roading up and down fire roads, forest service roads and two track "roads". I appreciate that for probably 80% of what we will be dong two wheel drive would be sufficient. But I know from past experience that there have been 20% of our trips and adventures where had we not had all an all-wheel drive vehicle we have been seriously stuck – sand in Michigan, steep rutted roads in Canyon Land’s, snow in Connecticut. Two-wheel drive would have never been sufficient so having 4X4 for us is safety and security. Said another way, Rubicon trail never, ever, ever. White Rim Trail - maybe?

Of course as most know, with the exception of expensive custom, 4X4 short Sprinter options are extremely limited and that is my frustration - covered in a recent post of mine asking why the MAJOR class B manufacturers are so out of touch and behind in the U.S. market.

[booster]

Also remember that any vehicle with dual rear wheels is going to get stuck much more easily than a single rear wheel version, so that may want to be taken into account. In any style, a lockable rear axle will do as much, or more than 4 wheel drive in the slippery stuff.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Mfturner

Winter tires worked surprisingly well on our front wheel drive Toyota sienna, but they wear fast in warm weather and I grew tired of the local garage mechanics breaking the threads on the studs from over tightening the nuts with air wrenches.

I'm sure that snow tires will still wear faster than all season tires but in recent years they have modified them with a different tread compound that mitigates the warm weather wear issue. Bridgestone did this when they went from their 70 series Blizzak to their 80 series. It's tricky. You want the rubber to be relatively soft at freezing and below temperatures without wearing like competition Pirellis during the summer. The improvements also reportedly cut down on their noise on dry roads.

The advantages of snow tires in snow are well understood. What is less appreciated is another factor which is temperature. All season tires go through an unavoidable compound transition with tread hardening at temperatures typically less than 7C. So even on dry roads, at freezing or below temperatures, snow tires with their softer compound provide an advantage.

I don't know how to totally protect yourself from local ham fisted mechanics. I know that at Costco their shops go through a daily routine of checking and calibrating their air wrenches to avoid this.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

Also remember that any vehicle with dual rear wheels is going to get stuck much more easily than a single rear wheel version, so that may want to be taken into account. In any style, a lockable rear axle will do as much, or more than 4 wheel drive in the slippery stuff.

Can you enlarge on he dynamics that make duals more prone to getting stuck than singles?

I had a Tacoma with a locking rear axle that worked well but it could provoke rear end slewing without careful attention to throttle.

[4DMTNS]

I'm currently running Bridgestone Blizzak W965 LT245/75R16 on a 2017 Hymer Aktiv (RAM ProMaster 2500). Yes, I know the RAM ProMaster 2500 stock is a 225. The local American's Tire dealer spoke directly with Bridgestone and was told the 245 was a better tire for our area. It is a tight fit in the rear wheel well, but nothing rubbed when I drove it off the curbs, over obstacles, etc. while at America's Tires (Discount Tire). There is plenty of room in the front wheel well, no issues with turning.

I had these installed in November after having several sliding experiences when coming over the Santiam Pass during an early snow storm. Immediately after having them installed I did a 400 mile road trip from Portland to Bend (via the same Santiam Pass), spent time goofing around on ice and in mud in Bend, then returned to Portland via Mt Hood Hwy. I had arranged to be able to return the tires at no charge if they did not perform to my expectations.

Having driven studded tires for more than 15 years on/over/around Mt Hood, and poor experiences with early studless tires in the early 90s, I was skeptical these would work. I was impressed, and I have actually recommended them to other ProMaster owners who asked.

Oregon snow is often referred to as Cascade Cement because it is heavy, high water content and actually gets icier quicker than other locations I've driven. It tends to rain a bit here in Oregon too, and I have experienced impressive traction on roads with poor drainage.

An added bonus of this larger tire size has been a slight height increase ... cannot remember for sure if it was 1/2" or 1" but it was enough of a change I had to get familiar with how it changed the handling.

Good luck with whatever you end up doing.

[Bud]

"An added bonus of this larger tire size has been a slight height increase ... cannot remember for sure if it was 1/2" or 1" but it was enough of a change I had to get familiar with how it changed the handling."

And your speedometer, odometer readings?

Bud

[4DMTNS]

My co-pilot checked the speed with his Garmin and the less techie WAYZ app on the phone at 55 and 65 mph and found less than 2mph variance. When I first started running larger tires on my trucks more than a decade ago I actually went to a shop to have my odometer and speedometer recalibrated, and the shop owner actually gave me a chart instead that showed the differences. He said he would be happy to make the change if I wanted to spend the $500 or I could have a copy of the chart for free. As for MPG, dunno ... I don'f bother much with that. I track experience by the mile.

[booster]

I think 1/2 or even 1" of added height is not going to be noticeable for almost everyone, especially since if it is just from tire size the suspension stays in exactly the same relative positions.

It if far more likely that any changes felt would be from the tire change itself. All brands and sizes have different characteristics that affect handling, and even going with the same size but in different brands or styles can make a huge difference in handling. DW's Honda CRV was pretty extreme in that way, with a major change for the better when she put Michelin Defenders on it to replace the OEM Bridgestone tires.

We saw about 3% (about 2mph at 60) by going from 245-75-16 to 265-75-16 on our Roadtrek Chevy.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by 4DMTNS

.... As for MPG, dunno ... I don'f bother much with that. I track experience by the mile.

MPG is important... but most of us put the wrong emphasis on it.


A friend gave up a bargain on an old rig because it only gets 10 mpg.
I asked him if he were to go across the continent and back,
what would be the difference in cost compared to a new rig that gets better mpg?
He did a quick calculation and realized his loss.


MPG is very important if you use it as a daily driver.
Otherwise, it is the experience that counts.

.

[booster]

With our Chevy Roadtrek we can get decent mileage in the 16+mpg range, but we rarely do because it requires driving 50-55mph. We always seem to be completely willing to buy a bit more gas to spend less time driving and more time playing. On the freeway, we get a comfortable drive even in the wind with the cruise set at 72mph and get 14.5-15mpg most of the time. That gives us an average speed consistently at 67mph and a range of over 700 miles a day if we choose to.

Good mileage is nice, but certainly not of the importance we thought when we first were looking at vans and our early travels.

[Davydd]

There have been a few Advanced RV's where the customers put on more aggressive tread tires than the Vanco 4season (Sprinter stock) or the better Michelin Defenders (the most popular replacement tires) and reported having more road noise. I wonder if it is worth it for the few times, maybe 1% of the time, that you would desire those kind of tires. I've driven on snow just a few times in 12 years of Class B ownership and those few times I had no problems.

Right now my Michelin Defenders match mileage and MPH accurately. That was not true with my first 2005 model Sprinter and it drove me nuts. I wouldn't dismiss a change, even slight, in that change for a larger diameter tire.

I know there has been much discussion on raising Chevys a couple of inches but I haven't read much about doing the same with a Sprinter that I can recall. Clearance would be my most desire for a 4x4.

[Mat Mobile]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I know there has been much discussion on raising Chevys a couple of inches but I haven't read much about doing the same with a Sprinter that I can recall. Clearance would be my most desire for a 4x4.

Davyd, you don't absolutely need to have a 4x4 for clearance on a Sprinter. You can just install a small 2" lift kit from Van Compass.

I'm sure you don't really need it but just throwing out there to add to the discussion.

Roadtrek example

[angelmroman]

“Roadtrek used to charge 8k but have jacked the option up to just short of 10k.“

I looked into purchasing a new 4x4 RT 190 last Fall. The quoted MSRP was $25.8K (?!!). Even with a typical 20% discount, that’s STILL $20K for a Quigley 4x4 Conversion that’s available everyday for $12K. Lost interest and upgraded my present RT 210P .

[User1213]

While my Roadtrek 210 Popular does good with the lift & Dana 70 locker I'll be taking the rig in for an IFS 4X4 conversion this spring. I'd like it to have all the capability that it will need for snow, sand and back country areas that I plan on seeing out west.

The biggest improvement that I'll need to make to the cabin will be to the cabinet drawer slides. As they are now the drawers vibrate badly on rough roads so converting them over to HD self closing ball bearing slides will be a great improvement.