Surge Protector

[Teresa]

Hey All,

I'm back. I've been living out of the van for a lot of the year. Had a neighbor tell me I really should use a surge protector. I'm cool with that. There are choices though and not sure what I should order.

I have a 30 amp service. 4100 Joules? 8000 Joules? No idea.

Also, I have a water restrictor but they told me the one I bought didn't work well at all. I did discover several leaks since this is the first time I've been using my city water connection so I need to get that addressed. Is there a better restrictor I should have? I'm positive the leak has been there since I bought it since the pump never held pressure. I dealt with it by turning it on when needed and then just turning it off again. The first time I took it in, they told me no leak and such. Frustrating.

[Teresa]

Well, had a moment to do some research and the higher the Joules, the more protection one gets. Putting that out there in case anyone reads this so I bought one with a high number. I also bought a better water restrictor just cause. Leaks suck. I've filed a claim with Thor - we'll see how they respond to that as it should still be under warranty but I can understand if they don't see it that way. BTW, I lost the solar panel off the roof twice. I think the design of using a glue is a poor one because the wind can catch the edge and will eventually get it loose. My nephew is willing to put a bolt and nut through the roof but with it being fiberglass....yea, I'm not that brave. I'll just go without for now.

[mumkin]

I've always put in a hardwired Progressive 30 amp EMS. Worth the cost if you plug in a lot. Plus it is smaller that the ones that hang on the pole... and can't get stolen. In my rig, it fit nicely into the inverter cabinet, but I don't know your configuration.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002UC6RSA...hlbWF0aWM&th=1

If you don't often plug in, I would still stick to the Progressive Industries brand. But also get some sort of lock so it doesn't get stolen. You will also need a place to store it.

[avanti]

"Joule" ratings are mostly marketing hype and are not reliable measures of the capacity of a surge suppressor. See, for example:

Because joule ratings can easily be manipulated, many of the industry standards and guidelines (UL and IEEE) do not recommend the comparison of joules. Instead, they focus on actual performance of the SPDs by testing the Nominal Discharge Current, which tests the SPDs durability along with the VPR testing that reflects the let-through voltage.

https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/sur...device-faq.pdf

If it is really surge suppression that you care about (and you should), it is far better to permanently install a quality whole-house surge suppressor from a reputable manufacturer. I used this one in both our previous van and our current one:

https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-51110.../dp/B00BV19IG4

Last I checked, it provides much better protection at a much lower price than any of the RV-specific units.

Now, many of the RV units also perform various power-quality analyses on the incoming shore power, which you may or may not care about. But, that is not surge suppression. Many high-end inverter/chargers do that anyway, so the expensive protection is redundant.

[dmb496]

Originally Posted by avanti

Now, many of the RV units also perform various power-quality analyses on the incoming shore power, which you may or may not care about. But, that is not surge suppression. Many high-end inverter/chargers do that anyway, so the expensive protection is redundant.

I didn't realize my Xantrex XC Pro 3000 provided shore power protection until I read the manual a few minutes ago. Thanks for that.

There is a section of wiring in our class B that isn't protected from incoming shore power; the 30 feet of cable between the pedestal and the receptacle on the side of the van, and the 5' of Romex between that receptacle and my Xantrex 3000. Do you feel a portable external EMS plugged into the pedestal is worthwhile for the 35' of cable/wiring I listed?

[Teresa]

Thanks for the responses. I appreciate the information and am learning a lot of the site again.

I did buy what looks to be like what most of the folks here have which hangs off the pole, etc. Having an internal one permanently wired in though - didn't even know that was an option. Very cool. I'll do that as well once I get a chance and I'm sure my Dad / Brother can help me install it and I should have space for it. In the meantime, I at least have something in place.

I did plug in once in SD and had the breaker trip immediately upon being turned on and since I was the only one in the campground, I simply moved spots. Otherwise, I suppose I've been lucky. Because I'm still working daily from the van, having electricity helps a lot.

BTW, one of our conversations from before was whether or not to buy the Tesla Roam sat service which I did. I've used it very little BUT there was a week in NM at a remote campsite where I wouldn't have been able to stay without it. It worked amazingly well and we had snow, deep clouds - the gamut of potential reasons it shouldn't have worked. I've simply been paying monthly for the service and haven't kicked it on and off and realize I'm lucky to make enough to have that sort of expensive backup but it was a wonderful week so worth it to me.

Overall, the van has been a wonderful and useful addition to my life and I don't regret it. We finally narrowed down the leak which I believe I've had since the day I bought it and I think it is dripping out of the Truma system. I've taken it in twice just to have the techs tell me I'm crazy but whether it has gotten worse or it is just the way the van is sitting, pretty clear what's been happening here. So no hot water for me til I have time to hand it over to a dealer to address but I had that leak and one other which finally got bad enough to be clear I guess.

Otherwise, the van has been terrific.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

"Joule" ratings are mostly marketing hype and are not reliable measures of the capacity of a surge suppressor. See, for example:



https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/sur...device-faq.pdf

If it is really surge suppression that you care about (and you should), it is far better to permanently install a quality whole-house surge suppressor from a reputable manufacturer. I used this one in both our previous van and our current one:

https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-51110.../dp/B00BV19IG4

Last I checked, it provides much better protection at a much lower price than any of the RV-specific units.

Now, many of the RV units also perform various power-quality analyses on the incoming shore power, which you may or may not care about. But, that is not surge suppression. Many high-end inverter/chargers do that anyway, so the expensive protection is redundant.

Leviton 51110 SRG is used often by DIY community, for more data search on the Sprinter Forum. A few years back I called Leviton and was told that for a single-phase application, like an RV, the Leviton 51110 can be wired with 2 phases in parallel to double its capacity. If only one side of the device is used the second side could be used as a spare. I wired mine by combining both phases.

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Leviton 51110 SRG is used often by DIY community, for more data search on the Sprinter Forum. A few years back I called Leviton and was told that for a single-phase application, like an RV, the Leviton 51110 can be wired with 2 phases in parallel to double its capacity. If only one side of the device is used the second side could be used as a spare. I wired mine by combining both phases.

The instructions for that unit show it to be for a main breaker panel in a house or other non moving place. That also means that the the box they connect to is neutral/ground bonded and they show it wired that way.


In RV wiring you would not be allowed to do that as you aren't allowed to neutral/ground paths in the van and when on shore power that is at the power box.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

The instructions for that unit show it to be for a main breaker panel in a house or other non moving place. That also means that the the box they connect to is neutral/ground bonded and they show it wired that way.


In RV wiring you would not be allowed to do that as you aren't allowed to neutral/ground paths in the van and when on shore power that is at the power box.

When I talked to Leviton it was the tech rep suggestion to wire the device in parallel. This is how it is wired in my van currently, no bonding. If I recall correctly someone else on this forum wired it in parallel and reported. I will try to find it. Regards this device being only for stationary application I don’t know, works on my van for about 10 years, first wired as a single phase and perhaps 6-7 years ago in parallel. See the wiring diagram, this a simple device with two groups of MOVs wired independently with four wires coming out.

See the pictures of used Leviton 51110 after surge, its assembly would suggest it should be good enough for my van's road induce vibration. https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-r...SIN=B00BV19IG4

[GeorgeRa]

See previous discussopn https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...html#post81014

[booster]

The instructions say this

Leviton’s 51110-SRG Residential Panel Surge Protection Device (SPD) is a high-performance Transient Voltage Surge Suppressor. The Residential Panel
SPD unit is designed for use on 240/120 VAC at the home's breaker panel.

It also says this

Leads shall be 12 AWG 18" maximum. Leads from the SPD must be connected to the power mains through a 20 Amp (maximum) disconnect and
fusing means

In an RV the nearest earth ground is a long ways away, bonded or unbonded, and I think that most protectors, if not all have to dissipate the surge to a real earth ground because that is where the surge came from. 30 feet of wiring is a lot of extra distance than 18" of 12ga, even if it is 10ga.


Marco showed one in the old discussion mounted close to the power pole, which makes perfect sense not to be bonded, just hooked up and be within 18" of the power post earth ground and bonding.


It would be interesting to any actual testing by the manufacturer or test lab as to what happens to the protection capability of the unit when that far away from the earth ground.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

The instructions say this





It also says this





In an RV the nearest earth ground is a long ways away, bonded or unbonded, and I think that most protectors, if not all have to dissipate the surge to a real earth ground because that is where the surge came from. 30 feet of wiring is a lot of extra distance than 18" of 12ga, even if it is 10ga.


Marco showed one in the old discussion mounted close to the power pole, which makes perfect sense not to be bonded, just hooked up and be within 18" of the power post earth ground and bonding.


It would be interesting to any actual testing by the manufacturer or test lab as to what happens to the protection capability of the unit when that far away from the earth ground.

I agree that the best place for surge protector is at the power post for the maximum performance. But surge protector at the main panel of the RV will still protect, perhaps will not eliminate all surges. This disadvantage applies to all hardwire options, Leviton or other protectors like Progressive https://www.progressiveindustries.ne...1e34507917.pdf

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I agree that the best place for surge protector is at the power post for the maximum performance. But surge protector at the main panel of the RV will still protect, perhaps will not eliminate all surges. This disadvantage applies to all hardwire options, Leviton or other protectors like Progressive https://www.progressiveindustries.ne...1e34507917.pdf

Absolutely true. I would certainly think that the further from the bonded earth ground you go, the less effective they will be. We have a different model number but with identical specs to the one you showed and when we got it, the electrical gurus online and the master electrician at work all said they are like a high end consumer plug in unit for surges and that their real worth was to catch miswired power poles, open grounds, and high or low voltage. The similar product from them the plugs in at the pole would probably be considerably better for surges, I would think.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by dmb496

There is a section of wiring in our class B that isn't protected from incoming shore power; the 30 feet of cable between the pedestal and the receptacle on the side of the van, and the 5' of Romex between that receptacle and my Xantrex 3000. Do you feel a portable external EMS plugged into the pedestal is worthwhile for the 35' of cable/wiring I listed?

No I do not. Waste of money. The breaker at the pedestal is adequate protection for the shore power cable. I would simply mount the Leviton surge suppressor as close to the vehicle entry as possible. There is nothing upstream of there that would be damaged by a surge anyway.

[Punkinhead]

We use a Hughes Watchdog but surge protection is just one piece of it. It protects against under and over voltage, open neutral, open ground, and reverse polarity. Under voltage is hard on electronics and we've had the Watchdog kick out for it a couple times. We have friends who have had theirs kick out for a couple of the other reasons on the list. I'd much prefer something hard wired inside the van but we don't have a great spot for it so we use the model that hangs on the pedestal. I made up a cable to lock it to the box on the pedestal and really need to modify the cable so it can also lock up our SmartPlug cable since they're expensive.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Punkinhead

We use a Hughes Watchdog but surge protection is just one piece of it. It protects against under and over voltage, open neutral, open ground, and reverse polarity. Under voltage is hard on electronics and we've had the Watchdog kick out for it a couple times. We have friends who have had theirs kick out for a couple of the other reasons on the list. I'd much prefer something hard wired inside the van but we don't have a great spot for it so we use the model that hangs on the pedestal. I made up a cable to lock it to the box on the pedestal and really need to modify the cable so it can also lock up our SmartPlug cable since they're expensive.

Yes, that kind of protection is important. My only beef is that people are often sold them when they already have such protection from their inverter/chargers. If yours doesn't have these features, then a separate unit is well worthwhile. But if it does, then such an item is an expensive redundancy. In that case, all you need is surge-suppression (few inverters have this), which can be done cheaper and better by using a whole-house unit.

[Sensfan]

Originally Posted by avanti

Yes, that kind of protection is important. My only beef is that people are often sold them when they already have such protection from their inverter/chargers. If yours doesn't have these features, then a separate unit is well worthwhile. But if it does, then such an item is an expensive redundancy. In that case, all you need is surge-suppression (few inverters have this), which can be done cheaper and better by using a whole-house unit.

How does someone determine whether or not their RV has the surge protection built in? I was told by RT in 2012 that ours does, however the documents that came with the van do not refer to surge-protection. I bought a Progressive.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Sensfan

How does someone determine whether or not their RV has the surge protection built in? I was told by RT in 2012 that ours does, however the documents that came with the van do not refer to surge-protection. I bought a Progressive.

Well, I guess there is no way to be certain short of tracing the shore power input from the plug to the inverter/charger. However, these items are considered expendable, since in a worst case they sacrifice themselves for the cause. Also, most good surge suppressors have LEDs to indicate whether they are still functional. For these reasons, any competent installation would place them somewhere where they were easily accessible.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

In an RV the nearest earth ground is a long ways away, bonded or unbonded, and I think that most protectors, if not all have to dissipate the surge to a real earth ground because that is where the surge came from. 30 feet of wiring is a lot of extra distance than 18" of 12ga, even if it is 10ga.


Marco showed one in the old discussion mounted close to the power pole, which makes perfect sense not to be bonded, just hooked up and be within 18" of the power post earth ground and bonding.


It would be interesting to any actual testing by the manufacturer or test lab as to what happens to the protection capability of the unit when that far away from the earth ground.

The transients that surge suppressors combat come in various flavors. Some require ground, and others don't. For example, a surge between hot and neutral can be handled by a MOV between those two conductors without any ground reference (this is what the suppressors found on 2-wire power strips do). But a common-mode surge between the power and safety ground needs an earth reference. Of course, such a reference is available from any properly-wired shore power source when plugged in. When not plugged in, it doesn't matter.

As to the issue of "distance from earth", it is not clear to me why such distance matters. Before the surge, the safety ground wire will be sitting at the same potential as that of the local "earth"--no current is flowing. When a surge comes along, the MOV shunts it to the earth wire, which should be prepared to absorb it. Such surges, although sometimes very high voltage, are typically very brief and represent negligible current. My non-EE brain can't see why distance to earth should matter in this scenario. I could be totally wrong, though.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

The transients that surge suppressors combat come in various flavors. Some require ground, and others don't. For example, a surge between hot and neutral can be handled by a MOV between those two conductors without any ground reference (this is what the suppressors found on 2-wire power strips do). But a common-mode surge between the power and safety ground needs an earth reference. Of course, such a reference is available from any properly-wired shore power source when plugged in. When not plugged in, it doesn't matter.

As to the issue of "distance from earth", it is not clear to me why such distance matters. Before the surge, the safety ground wire will be sitting at the same potential as that of the local "earth"--no current is flowing. When a surge comes along, the MOV shunts it to the earth wire, which should be prepared to absorb it. Such surges, although sometimes very high voltage, are typically very brief and represent negligible current. My non-EE brain can't see why distance to earth should matter in this scenario. I could be totally wrong, though.

I am not an EE either, but my understanding of it is different, I think. The longer the wire, the more resistance it has and the more resistant to current flow it is. I have been told it is more like a pipe full of water than an empty pipe. I think you are looking at it as a full pipe. Sitting at the same voltage as ground doesn't really matter in full pipe analogy as the voltage builds almost instantaneously unless there is an inductive part of it, I think, like in a motor. Of course I could be wrong also.


There is a reason that they tell you in the instructions to be within 18" of the bonded home fuse panel and to use no smaller than #12 wire. Both of those would seem to indicate they are worried about resistance to ground being a big deal in getting good performance when needed.