Smell......

[Bud]

"I am not asking for anecdotes, opinions, or "I do/don't do it myself" reports. I have way more than I need of all three. I am hoping for real data."

Heck, I did not ask for anything, but I appreciated the post and the link to Storing water, also called 'residence time'. Thanks for posting InterBlog.

Bud

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Bud

"I am not asking for anecdotes, opinions, or "I do/don't do it myself" reports. I have way more than I need of all three. I am hoping for real data."

Heck, I did not ask for anything, but I appreciated the post and the link to Storing water, also called 'residence time'. Thanks for posting InterBlog.

Bud

I see that my response came across as harsh or critical. Not my intention. I, too, appreciate InterBlog's post. I was just trying to clarify my question.

[GeorgeRa]

We just came from a long trip from Oregon to Key West and back, it was the longest single trip test for our conversion. Our 12 gal cold/4 gal hot water SS tanks needed refill every few days, always pressure fill from a drinking water faucet. We use fresh water for meal preparation and personal hygiene. For extended unused times we keep all tanks empty (except 4 gal. cassette flush water tank). Once a year fresh/hot water tanks get flashed with diluted bleach. We planning to change this process adapting our van as an earthquake “emergency kit”.

We have 14 gal SS grey water tank, never had issue with odor but we tend to remove bulk food from dishes before washing to keep the tank reasonably clean.

So, being a single data point we have no problems with neither fresh nor grey SS water tanks.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by avanti

I.... "a properly maintained and sanitized RV fresh water system". By that I mean "strictly follows all RVIA specifications and recommendations". ....

Can anyone summarize those specs and recs succinctly in a few sentences? 30,000 foot view - I haven't researched the issue.

Reason I'm asking: do they suggest any standardized water tank construction parameters?

Just as a "for instance", I've noticed that fresh tanks tend to be sold in different configurations that fit a wide variety of available spaces - no surprise there; they would have to, to meet the market. The thing is, though, that fact alone will have an impact on the efficacy of disinfection. Different aspect ratios lead to different surface area to volume ratios where the freeboard is concerned.

All of these tanks are constantly breathing through their equalization valves - which means they're sucking in ambient particulates and microbes. So, too, do the ground storage tanks typically found in public water systems (PWSs). The difference is that the van tank is 30 gallons +/- and PWS tanks are often a million gallons or larger. The latter case involves a lot of water exposed to a little bit of air. The former case, not so much.

Incidentally, I routinely shoot chlorinated water out of our tank's little equalization valve, as a way of purging that line (easily done by overfilling the tank). Water operators do the same thing with ground storage tanks, as a way of cleaning their vents (in fact, doing so is a requirement of the law). A ground storage tank in a vent purge is an interesting sight. It's like the earth itself is engaged in a massive snot-blowing exercise.

With water, it's never a question of clean vs. dirty. It's always a question of HOW MUCH dirt.

[InterBlog]

By coincidence, yesterday I watched "Arctic Harvest", S11E4 of the NatGeo series "Life Below Zero". In that episode, Kavik River Camp operator Sue Aikens allegedly makes herself sick by drinking water that, as it turns out, she had improperly managed. The episode tracks her process as she dumps her water cache, disinfects her "tanks", and fetches better-quality water to put in them.

It's "reality TV" which means it's difficult to discern what is ACTUALLY real and what is contrived for the entertainment of television viewers. Even with the costs of material transportation, is difficult for me to imagine why Sue spent as much time on the North Slope as she has, without some of the improvements that she has only recently created. BUT - what the hell do I know about Alaska.

Despite the TV limitations, there is a degree of authenticity to it, and I enjoy Sue's character. She's exactly my age and has a similar demeanor, although I'm much thinner and I curse probably ten times as much as she does. I find her off-grid headspace refreshing and a useful analog to some of my much smaller off-grid van aspirations.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Incidentally, I routinely shoot chlorinated water out of our tank's little equalization valve, as a way of purging that line (easily done by overfilling the tank). Water operators do the same thing with ground storage tanks, as a way of cleaning their vents (in fact, doing so is a requirement of the law)..

This is an important and oft-ignored procedure. I discovered it on my own years ago, when I discovered significant mold growth in the rather long vent tube.

I have never seen it mentioned in any upfitter's sanitization instructions.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

This is an important and oft-ignored procedure. I discovered it on my own years ago, when I discovered significant mold growth in the rather long vent tube.

I have never seen it mentioned in any upfitter's sanitization instructions.

Agree with both, I always try to make sure to quite often fill very slowly from the door jam fill unit the water comes out vent tube from our now single tank, especially when I am sanitizing with bleach.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by booster

Agree with both, I always try to make sure to quite often fill very slowly from the door jam fill unit the water comes out vent tube from our now single tank, especially when I am sanitizing with bleach.

Hi booster,

You may have mentioned the "single tank" since I arrived on the forum, just don't recall it. Please explain.

Bud

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

Hi booster,

You may have mentioned the "single tank" since I arrived on the forum, just don't recall it. Please explain.

Bud

That was one of the first things we did to our 07 C190P Roadtrek, and basically just removed the internal fresh tank because it was such a horrible design. At the time we weren't sure if we would need to build a replacement or not, and over the years really have not had an issue with just using the underbody 14 gallon fresh tank.

The design issue was that in the early Chevies, before the 2007 model update to the new roof style and kitchen, plus some other changes, the furnace was in the rear of the van in passenger side bolster. The internal fresh tank was there also and molded to kind of wrap around the furnace. Great design for the cold weather claim they have as the tank was inside and got heat from the furnace to some degree. This made for a very odd shaped tank. In the redesign, Roadtrek moved the furnace to the front armoire just behind the driver seat, which IMO was a good idea. What they didn't do was make a different internal water tank, continuing to use the odd shaped one. They kind of turned it around to a different position and stuffed it back in the bolster. What they wound up with was a tank that had the volume of maybe 1/4 of the bolster was using up maybe 90% of the bolster volume. This is prime inside the van storage so have all that wasted and unusable space seemed very silly to us. Our bolster only had about 3 or 4" of space in the very front of it, with all the rest mostly air but blocked by the tank and unreachable. The bolster is actually quite larege when cleared out. I did leave all the plumbing in place, capped and under the floor I added to bolster. I doubt we will ever put a tank in to replace the capacity of the one we took out, as we carry two 2.5 gallon collapsible water jugs and have never needed them to bring along extra water in the decade we have been using the single tank. They are handy for bringing water to the van if we want to fill the tank and the only sources are unhoseable faucets, though, or to use outside for whatever use.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by booster

That was one of the first things we did to our 07 C190P Roadtrek, and basically just removed the internal fresh tank because it was such a horrible design. At the time we weren't sure if we would need to build a replacement or not, and over the years really have not had an issue with just using the underbody 14 gallon fresh tank.

The design issue was that in the early Chevies, before the 2007 model update to the new roof style and kitchen, plus some other changes, the furnace was in the rear of the van in passenger side bolster. The internal fresh tank was there also and molded to kind of wrap around the furnace. Great design for the cold weather claim they have as the tank was inside and got heat from the furnace to some degree. This made for a very odd shaped tank. In the redesign, Roadtrek moved the furnace to the front armoire just behind the driver seat, which IMO was a good idea. What they didn't do was make a different internal water tank, continuing to use the odd shaped one. They kind of turned it around to a different position and stuffed it back in the bolster. What they wound up with was a tank that had the volume of maybe 1/4 of the bolster was using up maybe 90% of the bolster volume. This is prime inside the van storage so have all that wasted and unusable space seemed very silly to us. Our bolster only had about 3 or 4" of space in the very front of it, with all the rest mostly air but blocked by the tank and unreachable. The bolster is actually quite larege when cleared out. I did leave all the plumbing in place, capped and under the floor I added to bolster. I doubt we will ever put a tank in to replace the capacity of the one we took out, as we carry two 2.5 gallon collapsible water jugs and have never needed them to bring along extra water in the decade we have been using the single tank. They are handy for bringing water to the van if we want to fill the tank and the only sources are unhoseable faucets, though, or to use outside for whatever use.

Thanks booster, and I was not aware of your inside tank removal. I knew Roadtrek had moved the furnace and agreed that it was a better location for most applications. During the first half of my B's life (6 years) I removed the third seat and box under, but still needed more storage. At that time, I might have considered your storage solution.

Interesting concerning water. You're carrying about 20 gallons, me about 28 gallons. The reason I stop for water/dumping is because I need fresh water with room still left with the gray and black tanks. That means I don't really need the near worthless gray/black tank sensors. My vintage only has one fresh water display for both tanks, but 2 displays would add virtually no useable info. That one display works well.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

Thanks booster, and I was not aware of your inside tank removal. I knew Roadtrek had moved the furnace and agreed that it was a better location for most applications. During the first half of my B's life (6 years) I removed the third seat and box under, but still needed more storage. At that time, I might have considered your storage solution.

Interesting concerning water. You're carrying about 20 gallons, me about 28 gallons. The reason I stop for water/dumping is because I need fresh water with room still left with the gray and black tanks. That means I don't really need the near worthless gray/black tank sensors. My vintage only has one fresh water display for both tanks, but 2 displays would add virtually no useable info. That one display works well.

IIRC, the underbody tank measureed at 14 gallons and the inside a little under 11 gallons, so we have 20 gallons as mentioned, but that includes the water heater which is unusable water (Roadtrek often claimed it in the water capacity though, even though you couldn't use it). You should have about 25 gallons total, I think in a Chevy with the inside tank, unless things changed somewhere, plus the 6 in water heater.


We also need water more often than dump, which is black tank controlled (still thinking about combining them). Ours works out pretty well to two water fills per dump, and having the inside tank would still need a mid dump partial fill to go all the way to full on the black tank.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

... Despite the TV limitations, there is a degree of authenticity to it, and I enjoy Sue's character. She's exactly my age and has a similar demeanor, although I'm much thinner and I curse probably ten times as much as she does. I find her off-grid headspace refreshing and a useful analog to some of my much smaller off-grid van aspirations.

I also watch "Life Below Zero" and enjoy Sue Aikens. She has the tough personality required to survive in that part of Alaska. I'm sure fresh safe water can be a challenge in that environment. I've flown up to the north slope and stopped at a fueling station much like Kavik.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by avanti

This is an important and oft-ignored procedure. I discovered it on my own years ago, when I discovered significant mold growth in the rather long vent tube.

I have never seen it mentioned in any upfitter's sanitization instructions.

I overflow my water tank nearly every time I fill it at home, but not always when sanitizing it with bleach. I'll do that next time. Thanks to Avanti and Interblog for the tip.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by booster

IIRC, the underbody tank measureed at 14 gallons and the inside a little under 11 gallons, so we have 20 gallons as mentioned, but that includes the water heater which is unusable water (Roadtrek often claimed it in the water capacity though, even though you couldn't use it). You should have about 25 gallons total, I think in a Chevy with the inside tank, unless things changed somewhere, plus the 6 in water heater.


We also need water more often than dump, which is black tank controlled (still thinking about combining them). Ours works out pretty well to two water fills per dump, and having the inside tank would still need a mid dump partial fill to go all the way to full on the black tank.

I could have been more specific with the gallons. I was talking only about what our tank, tanks hold plus what we carry additional, your 5 and my 3.

You gave up water storage for other storage. I would have too for the first 6 years depending on the work involved. Then for the last 6 years I would have tried to put it all back. B applications are subject to change!

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

I could have been more specific with the gallons. I was talking only about what our tank, tanks hold plus what we carry additional, your 5 and my 3.

You gave up water storage for other storage. I would have too for the first 6 years depending on the work involved. Then for the last 6 years I would have tried to put it all back. B applications are subject to change!

Got it.


I think I wouldn't mind giving up the volume of the tank in storage space, but to give up maybe 3 to 4 times the actual volume in space seemed might bad and still does. If I built a tank it would go at the far back of the bolster, and over lap the wheel well where it had too. Only need 1.5 cubic feet to get 11 gallons so probably wouldn't take much more than 8" off the back, leaving the most useful room at the easy to get in front.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by booster

Got it.


I think I wouldn't mind giving up the volume of the tank in storage space, but to give up maybe 3 to 4 times the actual volume in space seemed might bad and still does. If I built a tank it would go at the far back of the bolster, and over lap the wheel well where it had too. Only need 1.5 cubic feet to get 11 gallons so probably wouldn't take much more than 8" off the back, leaving the most useful room at the easy to get in front.

Yes, and again I failed to state it appropriately. Thanks. Lots of other storage vs water storage. You explained that well right out of the gate. Slow here.

[engnrsrule]

Here is a thought about grey water tank smell. I was suspicious about dumping instructions on my roadtrek which said to pump down the black tank, then open the grey tank valve before closing the grey tank valve. I believe the intent here was to allow the grey waste to flush the black lines. In my engineer's mind, this might allow some small amount of black water to infiltrate back into the grey tank, which as you know, is not able to be cleaned with a wand like you use for the black tank. My dumping procedure is to ensure the black is empty and that it is pumping clear, and close its valve before opening the grey valve. I add some tank conditioner to both tanks.

[browngw]

As a past owner of a 97 PW STW, the odor issues were always with the trap in the shower base. Sometimes even a short drive in some conditions would cause an odor. A glass of water was all that was needed. We started using toilet chemical occasionally to freshen the tank.