Security while Boondocking

[XLent]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

Just curious.... Why are you so strongly doubtful?

Chase Bishop, 30, is facing a felony second-degree assault charge after the authorities said his gun went off while he was off-duty at a Denver club, injuring another patron.

July 2018 Story

Actually it discharged when he picked it up by trigger in his haste to secure the firearm. It did not discharge from hitting the floor after his backflip.

[Roadie1]

Originally Posted by DonkeyFluffer

In 1985 I shot a man while he was committing a home invasion of my residence. I had been sleeping but was wakened by my wife. Our 4 year old daughter was in her room, between us and the felon. He went to intensive care for three weeks, then back to prison. I did not know him. His prior convictions included multiple burglaries and assaults. The police did the report at my coffee table and assured me that my reaction was the only viable one. They came as soon as they were dispatched and it was 9 minutes until they arrived.

The cops likely won't reach you in time to prevent the worst either.

In 1991, I used multiple weapons systems to engage and destroy the enemy that was shooting at my soldiers.

After retiring from the Army, I became a police officer. In 2001, I found it necessary to use my issued handgun to save the life of the young man that i was training, only five days after his academy graduation. The suspect was a recently paroled felon. He died instantly and my rookie went home to his wife that evening. I was cleared after a full investigation and the police camera footage shut down any armchair quarterbacks. The felons mother still sued me but was unsuccessful.

I was involved in several other incidents while a member of the Special Operations Squad.

As a contractor in Iraq and Afghanistan, I've used weapons on a number of deployments. The last being in 2012.

I currently teach people to stay alive. This involves awareness, self defense, firearms, driving, and other related personal security topics.

I have a couple things to opine on. I read this entire thread.

1. Shotguns, even using 00 buck with the most open choke, have to be aimed. Especially at the short ranges in and around your RV that opened this discussion. Now, you can illegally modify one to shoot more like a blunderbuss of yore, but that makes you a criminal too.

I remember one of the gates to pass in SWAT school was the hostage situation. You're facing a suspect, holding a hostage in front of him, only half his face is visible behind the hostages head, so maybe 4 inches of valid target. (This is all done with plastic targets, good guy laid over the bad). You have a police shotgun with 00 buck and are 5 yards away. For those that don't know, 00 buck has 9 lead shots in each shell. At the buzzer, you have two seconds to bring the shotgun up from the low ready and shoot the suspect in the head without a single one of the 9 shots hitting the hostage. Where do you aim? Right at the outer edge of the suspects face. 7/9 of my shots hit the suspect, 2 missed outside, and zero hit the hostage. Point being, you have to aim a shotgun or you will miss. It's also an unwieldy weapon for RV living, especially a Class B. Over penetration is another concern with this very powerful weapon.

Bear spray and pepper spray are valid weapons but do not work as much as people think. Anyone that has even been sprayed knows it sucks but you also don't feel like panic and flight are your only options. Some people, and some bears, only get angered and continue their assault. It's better than nothing and I've handed it out to many friends and family. My advice is to spray and run, as the difficulty seeing is it's most debilitating effect.

Dime store stun guns? Worthless. Hollywood makes it seem like they knock a man out. They don't, we frequently would zap each other for fun.

Police level tasers? Very effective and available to many civilians. They aren't cheap, comparable to a quality handgun. Same advice, tase and run. The taser only debilitates for up to 5 seconds, then it shuts off. It is the longest five seconds the suspect will ever feel, but he will be fully functional after that. I used one to bring down a 320lb enraged biker, the five seconds was long enough for my partner to get the cuffs started.

Knives, baseball bats, Kung Fu? Sure, up close and personal and you better know what you're doing and you better stab, swing, or chop with every ounce of energy you have in you. Because the suspect only needs to deflect you once and he's in to close for you to be effective. I call those secondary options at best, for desperate times, maybe useful for fighting your way to your gun.

The snide comment about why we prefer concealed to open carry was stupid. Simple as that. You don't advertise that you are armed. It makes you the number one target when the bad guy enters the room.

I advise nobody to carry a gun that doesn't believe in them. I don't want untrained people using lethal weapons anywhere in my vicinity. I respect your right to not carry. But you will never convince me that guns aren't a major reason I'm still alive today.

For the RV lifestyle, I recommend (stored safely but quickly accessed) a semi auto handgun of 9mm or larger caliber or a revolver of .38 or 357. Either should have visible night sights, they are cheap and allow accuracy during limited visibility times. Train with it, get really competent with it. Load it with decent hollow point bullets, ball ammunition may not stop a bad guy quick enough and snake shot is only good for snakes. Using snake shot on a person is still deadly force, shooting to wound is Hollywood only.

For frequent boondockers, especially in very isolated locales, a rifle in 5.56 or larger is not unreasonable. A shotgun, if you prefer, is not a horrible choice either.

You shoot to stop the agression that caused you to shoot in the first place, that can be one round or that could be several magazines. Deadly force, once applied, cannot be taken back but if the alternative means death or serious bodily injury for yourself or the ones you love, then you have to do the right thing. I choose to not take chances. All the comments about guns being good or bad are for you guys to debate. I'm sick of it. In America, you still have right to choose to have a gun or not. I'm thankful for that. Choose wisely, I wont try to change your mind but please don't try to change mine.

I also advise everyone to know how to use a tourniquet. The old mantra that it will cost you a limb is simply untrue. I've watched this firsthand many times. Carry them in your house, car, shop, garage, RV, and backpack.

Truth be told, I'm not a gun nut. I've always loved at them as tools in my toolbox and not something to fondle and drool over. What I am is a lover of freedom and I'll be going from multiple 2 - 3 week RV trips per year to full time in a couple years and I look forward to meeting many of you.

Peace Out,
Jim

Great post Jim! Thank you for your service!

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by DonkeyFluffer

Thank you

I have a C and looking at a B now. Hence why I joined your forum, to educate myself.

Lots of help on this forum from good people willing to share. It took me over a year to find the "perfect rv for me". A 5 yr. old used "b" model that thankfully, my wife thinks is perfect too.

It was just the other day I posted somewhere that I get a kick out of some of the unusual member names. Yours is perhaps the most . . . ahem . . . unusual yet.
.

[DonkeyFluffer]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

As a followup the escaped prisoners were caught later in a campground. A ranger stopped by, noticed the towing vehicle was backed into the bushes to hide the license plate, wisely and luckily, said hello and went on his way calling a swat team. Don't remember how the actual takedown went. There were no further injuries.

Thanks for Donkeyfluffer's post. You know bullets, we know batteries so anything we can do to help, just ask.

As a matter of fact... I used the "recondition" setting on my smart charger to bring one of my now removed house batteries (lead acid 12v) to a healthy 12.7. The other reads 11.1 after two reconditioning cycles. Is it shot? It is the original 2014 that came with my unit brand new.

I replaced my house batteries with two AGM's but had a mind to use these for a teardrop/expedition trailer In building, if they still had life.

Oops, thread hijack. I'll repost elsewhere.

[DWorrell3]

I see 143 replies, which leads me to believe security is a concern. I have a conceal carry, issued in Texas, and bear spray. I'm not aggressive, but I don't want to be vulnerable, either. I like the staged security idea... noise, lights, bear spray handy, firearm ready (but very last resort). Have the phone ready, as well. DW

[avanti]

Originally Posted by DonkeyFluffer

What would cause you to fear a law abiding citizen?

A bad law.

[DWorrell3]

Jim, best post yet. I am a Vietnam vet and seen conflict. I have a conceal carry, but as a San Antonio policeman once noted to me, a firearm is not a threat device or a tool to direct traffic. When you show it, you've just given the other guy permission to fire. In his words, "only retrieve your weapon to make noise". Last resort, to be sure, but a lifesaving last resort. Train, know your weapon, and know your limits. I kinda like the Taurus Judge, but it's only effective too close for comfort.
DW

[DonkeyFluffer]

Originally Posted by DWorrell3

Jim, best post yet. I am a Vietnam vet and seen conflict. I have a conceal carry, but as a San Antonio policeman once noted to me, a firearm is not a threat device or a tool to direct traffic. When you show it, you've just given the other guy permission to fire. In his words, "only retrieve your weapon to make noise". Last resort, to be sure, but a lifesaving last resort. Train, know your weapon, and know your limits. I kinda like the Taurus Judge, but it's only effective too close for comfort.
DW

That range may be more than plenty for an RV Defense scenario.

[rscrogg]

Wasp and hornet spray works well up to about 20 ft. and is legal to possess anywhere. We had pepper spray confiscated upon enering Canada once, by contrast. Not sure if they would have allowed bear spray.

[DUTCH in Atlanta]

Originally Posted by rscrogg

Wasp and hornet spray works well up to about 20 ft. and is legal to possess anywhere. We had pepper spray confiscated upon enering Canada once, by contrast. Not sure if they would have allowed bear spray.

They most certainly do.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by DonkeyFluffer

I advise nobody to carry a gun that doesn't believe in them. I don't want untrained people using lethal weapons anywhere in my vicinity. I respect your right to not carry. But you will never convince me that guns aren't a major reason I'm still alive today.

For the RV lifestyle, I recommend (stored safely but quickly accessed) a semi auto handgun of 9mm or larger caliber or a revolver of .38 or 357. Either should have visible night sights, they are cheap and allow accuracy during limited visibility times. Train with it, get really competent with it. Load it with decent hollow point bullets, ball ammunition may not stop a bad guy quick enough and snake shot is only good for snakes. Using snake shot on a person is still deadly force, shooting to wound is Hollywood only.

Jim...
Thank you for sharing your insights (based on experience)

In my current profession in Risk Management and as a person who owns a shotgun, handgun, taken training courses, have a CC permit, and serve as a CERT (Community Emergency Response Team) member, I always want to see a person make specific risk mitigation actions BEFORE considering keeping a firearm for defense.

Critical thinking keeps a person out of danger and reduces the chance of being caught in a situation where the only option is to use a force multiplier.

I recall an unclear/presumed 'carjacking' situation where a woman driver shot a man approaching her car. It was acknowledged the man was panhandling and approached her car. Her explanation / rationale for shooting him was her fear (she was of small frame and had a child in the backseat) of being car-jacked.

Upon discovery it was found that the car doors were unlocked, she was distracted (texting), and was startled by the presence of the big guy next to her drivers door.

The convenience of having a handgun at reach resulted in extremely poor judgment. I spent a large amount of my life in Europe and the United States would be well served to require ongoing safety / defense training as part of the right to carry a firearm - especially in public spaces.

To be clear: I support carrying a firearm but am fully convinced the general public should expect CC permit holders to take routine ands ongoing training in usage / safety to maintain the CC permit.

[Glamper]

Maybe I should get my dad's WWII Luger out of mothballs....

[Reed]

I was parachute infantry (team leader in 173rd LRRP) in RVN and competed in IPSC And IDPA for several years. The average trained infantryman cannot successfully hit someone engaging him at close range. The average competitive shooter is not much better. I took a concealed carry course once and we had to qualify on IPSC silhouette targets (basically the size of a military D target) at 7 and 10 m. Half could not stay on target at 10 m slow fire.

Red laser pointer may be a good idea. A sidearm should probably have a Crimson Trace or similar system. Read that Singapore police have these installed on all their sidearms. Article said they have never had to fire once laser was on target

[DonkeyFluffer]

ClassB4me, I didn't emphasize it enough. Thank you.

[mangomike]

you seem to be receiving lots of good information so the only thing that I can add is
on guns
as was mentioned from state to state the gun laws ,,,are wildly different
.For instance,,, one of those Northeastern states that had been mentioned
Vermont seems to have one of the more liberal gun laws. Unless it has changed recently it is as stated below
Vermont allows both open and concealed carrying without a permit. ... It is illegal to carry a gun on school property or in a courthouse even with a concealed carry permit. Vermont does not issue permits or licenses of any kind. Anyone who can legally possess a firearm can carry either concealed or openly.
not exactly what you would expect??????
the other thing is,,,, that although bear spray has much volume and will cover a longer distance IN General it is not as potent as the pepper sprays that are sold for personal protection ,,, you will want to do your own research on this ,,we carried both
were not new to camping ,,, we have been tent camping all across the United States over the past six years mostly in national forests and BLM land.
But, we have just moved to a class B Van ,, lots of new tricks to learn
I really like the
positioning your van for a quick exit,,,, I'm not concerned about what I might leave behind ,,, bikes etc.
taking a picture with your cell phone ,,, really like that one
we have installed some fairly bright lighting outside and I like the car alarm idea.
There's lots of other good information in this thread
I hope that you find your comfort level and continue to enjoy the outdoors

[kmessinger]

I have been camping and for many years like some others here. I think things have gotten worse in the 10 years. We used to leave gear out all day and not worry about someone taking it but not now. When you see people randomly punch somebody on the street or break a window for fun it is time to raise the level of defensive options. I was raised around and always had guns. I never carried it around until now. And we are lucky to have an indoor range here to keep you tuned up.

Be safe, be ready and if you don't feel good about a spot move on.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

Thank you to those that posted actual incidents. Waiting for more.

How many, and of what kind? Unspecified general violence, or are some types of criminal activities of greater interest to you than others?

For a short time, I cataloged the carnage that I was seeing on Instagram. However it got to be tedious and time-consuming, so I stopped. It seems to be a bit of an unadvertised side of #vanlife - like maybe criminals assume there's a bunch of blithe stoners running around in vans, leaving their Apple devices ripe for the picking. Stereotypes maybe. Older vans without security systems tend to get stolen in their entirety. Sometimes newer Class Bs are stolen (such as the brand new one one taken in broad daylight from the San Antonio Riverwalk last summer) but generally when they are targeted, they are just invaded and ransacked. Here's the link on the mid-2018 San Antonio case (it's been posted on this forum previously); the embedded vid is worth watching.

https://www.kens5.com/article/news/l.../273-571329326

I pay attention to only a very short list of IGers. One of those whose posts I enjoy is username Sepudo, because I covet his dog - a German shepherd he named Dharma. Dharma was attacked and seriously injured a while back. She recovered with veterinary intervention but was traumatized, and he felt sooo guilty that it happened. I don't recall how he was able to save her before the attacking dogs killed her, which they clearly intended to do. But it was a good lesson for the rest of us - here is this guy, a young strong male, obviously not a push-over of an adult male, traveling with a full-breed German shepherd, and STILL, they were attacked and the dog had to be patched up, and was lucky she wasn't killed.

I've also screengrabbed below a post I made in mid-2017 on another forum because it contains a factoid that I don't think was mentioned on this thread thus far - if your van slider door has windows, it is VERY vulnerable. Logistically speaking, that is. In practice, it seems to be the driver's side window through which invaders most commonly arrive. I guess they are used to breaking into cars or something, where the keys might be under the mat or sun visor (??). I don't know - it doesn't make any sense to me especially with vans like mine, where the wet bath is directly behind the driver's seat. Anyone coming through that door cannot see hazards situated in (and pointed at them from) the back of the van - it's bad strategy for them if the van happens to be occupied at their moment of breaching. But from published reports, they choose that route predominantly. Duh.

Here's a reproduction of my post from another forum. This was from a thread where Class B owners were griping about their break-ins.

[kmessinger]

There is a you tube video showing how to get into the side door of a ProMaster. It is real easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlNyYRSM7Uk

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by kmessinger

There is a you tube video showing how to get into the side door of a ProMaster. It is real easy.

That was easy. I wonder if an easy fix is to rotate the interior lock handle 90 degrees and reinstall?
.

[hbn7hj]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

How many, and of what kind? Unspecified general violence, or are some types of criminal activities of greater interest to you than others?

Mainly being intimidated/attacked in or around an RV.

I've been RV traveling for over 30 years and never had an issue. In wondering why, it is probably because I have rarely been in a remote spot alone. Since deciding not to pay current park prices I have become addicted to free so the situation is changing. I am not opposed to Forest Service and BLM campsite charges with or without campground host.

I once pulled off for a noon nap at an intersection south of Moab, Utah. I was woken up by someone knocking on the van. It was a foreign tourist in a rental car wanting to know if it was worth his time to drive into the Canyonlands Needle District. I told him no, take a look at Newspaper Rock and head on to Monument Valley.

The Needles District is for Jeepers, hikers, and backpackers.

In retrospect It could have been different as I was totally unprepared for a druggie needing a few bucks. I think most Americans expect an RV to be armed and behave accordingly being less likely to approach one. I will be less likely to pull over at a remote intersection.

The interesting thing about these comments is most of you have a plan and options. Those that don't, need to get a plan and options. I'm sure solo females have given it a lot more thought.