Seat Belts saved our lives.

[bpiasecki@sbcglobal.net]

After visiting family in Ohio recently, we were heading home to California on I-40 through New Mexico. I was driving under the posted speed limit of 75 mph when suddenly without warning the right rear wheel of our 2008 Pleasureway Excell sheared off the axle. We rolled over three full times and came to rest upright in the median. The van was completely destroyed but somehow we were not seriously hurt. My wife sustained a small cut on her forehead and I was completely unscathed. The air bags did not deploy, but the seat belts undoubtedly saved our lives. Everything inside the RV came loose and flew about the cabin. All the cabinets came off the walls, the refrigerator and microwave bounced off of each other emptying the contents which then became potentially deadly missiles. We have kept the van well maintained and had it serviced and checked out by reliable mechanics prior to our departure. The RV was fully insured and we will replace it soon.

[rstl99]

So glad you walked away from what sounded like a horrendous accident.
I assume since you live in California there would not have been serious rust issues underneath that could partly explain the breakage?
I suppose the accumulated stress and weight on the axle from years of carrying a loaded camper may have caused the axle breakage? Who knows, but the important thing is that you and your wife survived without any serious injury!!

[booster]

Lucky you survived that one with all the stuff flying around.


It looks like that would have been a Ford E350 with single rear wheel Dana 60 semi floating axle. We have discussed nearly the same axle that was used on the Chevies.


If the axle broke, which is probable, they usually break right at the wheel end and on a semi floating axle there is nothing but the axle to hold the wheel on. Not a great design to use for heavy, often overloaded, vans IMO. All the weight is carried by the axle, plus the torque to move the van.



The wheel bearing rollers ride on the axle shaft itself and it is very common to damage the axle when a bearing fails. If the axle got gouged up and got overheated by the bad bearing the axle would be compromised and more prone to fail.


I would encourage everyone with semi floating rear axles to make sure the axles are not compromised from and wheel bearing failure and also to listen for noise from the rear that might indicate a failing wheel bearing. Also make sure the axle lube is regularly changed and up to level, as that oil also lubricates the wheel bearings.


We have a 2007 Chevy Roadtrek that came with a similar Dana 60 axle which made me uncomfortable about the design. I replaced it with a larger, full floating, rear axle. It has more capacity and there is no way for the wheel to separate if the axle breaks. The axle shaft itself actually carries no weight at all, just torque, and two massive wheel bearings on each wheel carry the load directly to axle housing.

[rstl99]

Thanks for the explanation on the rear axles used on many of these vans.

Mine is a 2001 Dodge (3500) Roadtrek. Based on the Dodge service manual and a VIN decoder it has a 9 1/4 inch HD axle housing with welded tubes extending out. However, as you pointed out, semi-floating axle shafts support vehicle load and the wheels themselves.

I'll heed your advice about keeping an ear out for any axle (bearing) noise back there, and maybe it will be good PM to have a truck shop disassemble and inspect the axle shafts and maybe replace the bearings while they're at it, before I decide to head out on a long trip some day. I bought the van last summer and for many reasons, have not had the opportunity to do extensive travelling with it yet. It has about 90,000 miles on it and has been on extensive N-A trips by previous owners.

I attach the schematic from my Dodge service manual to help those who may need a picture to understand Booster's description.

Regards.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by bpiasecki@sbcglobal.net

The RV was fully insured and we will replace it soon.

Not surprised that everything broke loose rolling three times. You are just lucky that it stayed behind you. I am just curious... how did the body hold up? So many Class C rigs disintegrate into kindling from the cab back in a roll over. I assume that these small Class C's like PW and LTV hold together much better, but perhaps I am asking too much of them.

It would be interesting to see photos.

Hope the insurance company works as well as your seat belts.

[peteco]

Originally Posted by booster

Lucky you survived that one with all the stuff flying around.


It looks like that would have been a Ford E350 with single rear wheel Dana 60 semi floating axle. We have discussed nearly the same axle that was used on the Chevies.


If the axle broke, which is probable, they usually break right at the wheel end and on a semi floating axle there is nothing but the axle to hold the wheel on. Not a great design to use for heavy, often overloaded, vans IMO. All the weight is carried by the axle, plus the torque to move the van.



The wheel bearing rollers ride on the axle shaft itself and it is very common to damage the axle when a bearing fails. If the axle got gouged up and got overheated by the bad bearing the axle would be compromised and more prone to fail.


I would encourage everyone with semi floating rear axles to make sure the axles are not compromised from and wheel bearing failure and also to listen for noise from the rear that might indicate a failing wheel bearing. Also make sure the axle lube is regularly changed and up to level, as that oil also lubricates the wheel bearings.


We have a 2007 Chevy Roadtrek that came with a similar Dana 60 axle which made me uncomfortable about the design. I replaced it with a larger, full floating, rear axle. It has more capacity and there is no way for the wheel to separate if the axle breaks. The axle shaft itself actually carries no weight at all, just torque, and two massive wheel bearings on each wheel carry the load directly to axle housing.

How often would you recommend changing the rear differential lube on a semi floating axle? I change mine every 50,000 miles. Is that often enough?

[booster]

Originally Posted by peteco

How often would you recommend changing the rear differential lube on a semi floating axle? I change mine every 50,000 miles. Is that often enough?

I think it varies a lot by the use, part of the country, what oil you use, etc. Lots of mountains and/or very heavy would be more often. Stored outside in cold weather might be and issue with moisture "breathing" in during temp swings. How fast you drive in very hot conditions.


Using only the best oils like Motul,Redline, high end Amsoil should also help.

My guess would be 50K would be good with the good oils, but taking a sample periodically and looking at it is probably a good idea to see how it holds up.


The idea that the rstl99 mentioned of inspecting the axles and maybe replacing the bearings is not a bad idea to do when you have the differential cover off to change the oil as you have to have that cover off to remove the C clips that hold the axles in the differential. It would not take much extra time to do once the cover is off.



Monitoring hub temps with an infrared thermometer is also a very good way to tell if the bearings are running too hot especially if one side is much hotter than the other.

[mkguitar]

Originally Posted by booster

Monitoring hub temps with an infrared thermometer is also a very good way to tell if the bearings are running too hot especially if one side is much hotter than the other.

Question:


do you think hub temps would transfer to wheel/tire sensor?


I have screw on sensors and watch for temperature anomalies.




One night...driving a 10 ton International South from Prince Albert ( dark & remote) ...I could see an orange glow on the snow bank on the other side of the 2 lane road.
Thought it was my clearance/box lights...turned off lights, glow still there.
it was the driver front trying the weld itself.

I got to the side and when I stopped moving it welded itself solid.


long cold night

[booster]

Originally Posted by mkguitar

Question:


do you think hub temps would transfer to wheel/tire sensor?


I have screw on sensors and watch for temperature anomalies.




One night...driving a 10 ton International South from Prince Albert ( dark & remote) ...I could see an orange glow on the snow bank on the other side of the 2 lane road.
Thought it was my clearance/box lights...turned off lights, glow still there.
it was the driver front trying the weld itself.

I got to the side and when I stopped moving it welded itself solid.


long cold night

If you have in the tire sensors, I am sure that would read temp quite accurately, but I found the screw on sensors don't really see the temp very accurately. I have compared the IR gun readings to the tire monitor and there are wide amounts of difference, with the tire sensors usually read quite a bit colder than the IR gun.


If I want a better guess than the sensors, I just go by the pressure and get a decent estimate of tire temp. For every 1.5 psi increase in the front it is 10*F. In the rear for every 2 psi is 10*F over the starting temp and pressure.


When we changed from the semi floater to the full floater our rear tire temps dropped a lot with the pressure increase also dropping by the above estimate, approximately. Or rears are close to the front temps now, sometimes cooler than the fronts. Hot hubs certainly look to be transferring to the tires from what I have seen.

[mkguitar]

thanks- the temps seem consistent and will show sunny side/shady side differential and accurately reflect ambient temps before driving.


i don;t stare at the thing, but it is in sight and a good general indicator of potential issue.


maybe


thanks

[booster]

Originally Posted by mkguitar

thanks- the temps seem consistent and will show sunny side/shady side differential and accurately reflect ambient temps before driving.


i don;t stare at the thing, but it is in sight and a good general indicator of potential issue.


maybe


thanks

If you were asking about basic accuracy, yeah, they will be pretty close. Sun and ambient will be fine, but there is not a good heat path for the temp changes from the hubs or even the tires to get to the sensor, it appears. They get constantly whirled through the ambient air so probably get significant heat removal by that air.

[GeorgeRa]

The benefit of conversions utilizing aluminum framing like 8020 for cabinets. All my 8020 cabinetry is bolted to the floor or walls or both similarly to either seatbelts or seats. Drawers and cabinet doors use heavy duty Southco M1 latches.

[rstl99]

Originally Posted by booster

I think it varies a lot by the use, part of the country, what oil you use, etc. Lots of mountains and/or very heavy would be more often. Stored outside in cold weather might be and issue with moisture "breathing" in during temp swings. How fast you drive in very hot conditions.

Using only the best oils like Motul,Redline, high end Amsoil should also help.

My guess would be 50K would be good with the good oils, but taking a sample periodically and looking at it is probably a good idea to see how it holds up.

Just read the Factory Service Manual for my Dodge 3500 van based camper (Roadtrek). Recommended differential oil change interval for Schedule B (severe duty) is about 20,000 kms (12,000 miles). For these heavy-loaded campers, I think it safer to go with Schedule B than Schedule A. Oddly enough, Schedule A does not require diff oil change until 192,000 Kms or 96 months.

Based on this, the recommendation above to replace the oil every 50k miles may not be prudent enough, for Dodge vans anyway.

I'll be putting Amsoil synthetic diff oil in mine as soon as I can, as service records that came with the vehicle don't show any such maintenance. However, the entire diff assembly was replaced around 50,000 kms (under warranty, hopefully). Owner had complained about "noise in the back" for months before the garage decided the diff needed to be changed... Maybe it had been running low on oil, who knows...

Question: does the water tank have to be removed to replace the diff oil on the Dodge vans?

[MagicBox]

Wow, scary situation. So glad everyone was ok after the accident.

This made me go out and check my diff fluid.

Checking the fluid level is 5 minute job with a 3/8 ratchet on level ground (differential maintenance on my RT is especially easy since I removed the generator).

Replacing the fluid by removing the inspection plate is the most thorough method. I used a manual suction pump through the fill hole to remove the fluid. Using this method you can do the service in under a half hour and I am more likely to do it regularly. After reading this story serving the diff every couple of years doesn’t seem excessive to me.

It’s also a good idea to regularly check the rear axle for leaks:
-behind the rear brakes.
-at the differential inspection plate
-at the pinion seal (where the driveshaft meets the differential housing).
-and at the juncture where the hogshead meets the axle tubes

This is definitely a wake up call for rear differential maintenance (or upgrading) and watching our van weights.

[booster]

It is also quite easy to add a drain plug to the bottom of the diffy housing when you have the cover off to change the oil. Suction guns work but miss quite a bit of the oil. A 1/8 or 1/4 inch pipe plug tapped into the lowest point really makes life easy.



On our full floater, I also added drain/fill ports on the hubs to drain them with the rest of the oil. It also allows me to fill the differential from wheelwell areas so no suction gun through the hole in the cover. Very easy that way.

[MagicBox]

That’s a good idea to add a drain on the cover, Booster. I am surprise there is enough material in the inspection plate to reliability tap.

[booster]

Originally Posted by MagicBox

That’s a good idea Booster. I am surprise there is enough material in the cover reliability tap.

You tap the bottom of the differential housing at the lowest point, not the cover.

[RVclassB4me]

I wonder what type of axle is in the single rear wheeled Sprinters??

Originally Posted by booster

Lucky you survived that one with all the stuff flying around.


It looks like that would have been a Ford E350 with single rear wheel Dana 60 semi floating axle. We have discussed nearly the same axle that was used on the Chevies.


If the axle broke, which is probable, they usually break right at the wheel end and on a semi floating axle there is nothing but the axle to hold the wheel on. Not a great design to use for heavy, often overloaded, vans IMO. All the weight is carried by the axle, plus the torque to move the van.



The wheel bearing rollers ride on the axle shaft itself and it is very common to damage the axle when a bearing fails. If the axle got gouged up and got overheated by the bad bearing the axle would be compromised and more prone to fail.


I would encourage everyone with semi floating rear axles to make sure the axles are not compromised from and wheel bearing failure and also to listen for noise from the rear that might indicate a failing wheel bearing. Also make sure the axle lube is regularly changed and up to level, as that oil also lubricates the wheel bearings.


We have a 2007 Chevy Roadtrek that came with a similar Dana 60 axle which made me uncomfortable about the design. I replaced it with a larger, full floating, rear axle. It has more capacity and there is no way for the wheel to separate if the axle breaks. The axle shaft itself actually carries no weight at all, just torque, and two massive wheel bearings on each wheel carry the load directly to axle housing.

[Tdogking]

I would tend to think rear axle was overloaded possibly. Did you ever have RV weighed fully loaded etc ?? The rear axle grease in my 2003 E-350 doesn’t ever have to be changed if it hasn’t leaked and still has factory synthetic grease in it. It says that right the Ford owners manual.

[MagicBox]

I’m always wary of fluids touted as “no service needed”.
Even with the new synthetics, transmission and differential fluids needs to be checked and at some point replaced. Normal wear produces debris and the I imagine the fluid properties break down over time.
Perhaps the manufacturers are going for high marks on the JD Powers “cost of ownership” segment.