RVX Salt Lake City Utah

[dhectorg]

Originally Posted by booster

I don't think that the gas frigs will go away, but they will get to be more niche like compressor frigs were for quite a while.


The compressor frig, inductive cooktop, electric water heater, and other high energy use things will likely stay popular, but I would also expect a there will be a "backlash" market of low electricity use vans near the lower end, but with small lithium packs, solar, and a moderate to small sized engine generator. LP for cooking, heating, water heating, frig,no generator. Biggest power use likley being device charging type stuff. Such a van could be very reliable, light, and able to stay off grid a long time without engine running or genny. We see that now in older vans that use tiny amounts of power daily and can easily survive on a couple of batteries and solar.


A basic, low option, Promaster built this way could be very reasonably priced but still have very good reliability and off grid use.

I'm all for electric only vans, long overdue if you ask me. However, this configuration will only work if manufacturers start including solar and larger battery banks as standard. Also, we've reached the point where lithium should be available on every coach, for a reasonable upgrade charge. but most brands still gouge you for them, if they offer them at all.

In any case, all electric coaches will be very desirable going forward, for their extended boon-docking capability. It's the way I'm planning to go when I buy my van, for sure.

[Davydd]

I've been all electric with no propane but diesel-fired heat and hot water and no Onan type generator for over 4 years. I've mentioned numerous times the freedom to have all your electrical systems available at all times and you never have the need to plug into shore power to use your coffee maker, Instant Pot, induction cooktop, bake in your convection oven or having all your 120V outlets accessible. That freedom is the number one reason travel is more enjoyable. I guess until you experience it, you might not understand it. It makes stopping at a Camp Wally a no-brainer.

Our last overnight on the road 8 weeks Sunday morning in Osceola, Iowa.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by dhectorg

In any case, all electric coaches will be very desirable going forward, for their extended boon-docking capability. It's the way I'm planning to go when I buy my van, for sure.

If your campervan is diesel, I struggle to understand why a manufacturer would not use an espar furnace for heat / hot water. Is it dramatically more expensive than propane?

What would be the average cost for a battery / solar setup to run your induction cooktop, tv, fans, etc. off an inverter?

If you take A/C out of the mix, it seems you could be all electric and operate nicely off-grid at a reasonable price.

Is a Lithium battery / solar setup still considered do-able for only the most expensive RVs or must propane be part of the mix as well?

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

If your campervan is diesel, I struggle to understand why a manufacturer would not use an espar furnace for heat / hot water. Is it dramatically more expensive than propane?

What would be the average cost for a battery / solar setup to run your induction cooktop, tv, fans, etc. off an inverter?

If you take A/C out of the mix, it seems you could be all electric and operate nicely off-grid at a reasonable price.

Is a Lithium battery / solar setup still considered do-able for only the most expensive RVs or must propane be part of the mix as well?

Propane combustion chambers require less maintenance and are more reliable. New furnaces from Eberspacher will likely be more reliable but still expensive. There are many new comers to the diesel water and space heater market for much lower prices but reliability is still unknown.

I have Isotemp water heater powered by either 750W heater rod or Espar Hydronic D5 furnace and Espar Airtronics D2 for space heating. D5 tends to be a little loud on outside and D2 is much quieter and it is the best RV space heater I ever had by far. My complete system was about $2500 with my installation.

[GeorgeRa]

A reminder of hydrocarbon fuels and batteries energy storage capacities. Batteries are great but need to be refueled by solar harvesting or by burning hydrocarbon fuels. There are 2 ways to stay longer on no shore power campsite:
- Keep consumption low
- Have sufficient energy source
and we clearly have 2 populations believing their religions are best.

With my 230Ah AGM bank and 300W of solar and fuel in the tank I can stay long time on good solar harvesting location and weather. I believe that hydrocarbon space and water heating energy hogs will be with for a while. I think LPG will stay with us a dominant RV energy source for long time.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Propane combustion chambers require less maintenance and are more reliable. New furnaces from Eberspacher will likely be more reliable but still expensive. There are many new comers to the diesel water and space heater market for much lower prices but reliability is still unknown.

I have Isotemp water heater powered by either 750W heater rod or Espar Hydronic D5 furnace and Espar Airtronics D2 for space heating. D5 tends to be a little loud on outside and D2 is much quieter and it is the best RV space heater I ever had by far. My complete system was about $2500 with my installation.

Seems like everyone is going diesel.

Amazon
Happybuy 5KW Diesel Air Heater for RV Bus Motorhome Boat Car (12V 2KW Parking Engine Pre-Heater with 1 x Metal Tank 2 x Vent,2 xDuct,1 xMuffler)
by Happybuy

Price: $459.90 & FREE Shipping

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8zA526u36U

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

Seems like everyone is going diesel.

Amazon
Happybuy 5KW Diesel Air Heater for RV Bus Motorhome Boat Car (12V 2KW Parking Engine Pre-Heater with 1 x Metal Tank 2 x Vent,2 xDuct,1 xMuffler)
by Happybuy

Price: $459.90 & FREE Shipping

There was a Chinese Diesel Heater thread on Sprinter Forum recently for just over $100. No complaints but long term reliability judgment will come in time.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

There was a Chinese Diesel Heater thread on Sprinter Forum recently for just over $100. No complaints but long term reliability judgment will come in time.

You can get a low price on the Chinese units but I agree that the long term reliability is unknown and probably hard to get parts for repair.

The Planar heaters get good reviews, made in Europe...

https://totalcomposites.com/product-...ating-cooling/

We have the Webasto Dual Top diesel heat and hot water which works great but it is expensive at $3500 or so...

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

You can get a low price on the Chinese units but I agree that the long term reliability is unknown and probably hard to get parts for repair.

The Planar heaters get good reviews, made in Europe...

https://totalcomposites.com/product-...ating-cooling/

We have the Webasto Dual Top diesel heat and hot water which works great but it is expensive at $3500 or so...

I think the general public (myself included) become overwhelmed when you see these price disparities on somewhat similar Chinese made products.


Prediction
The first top spec all Chinese made RV coming to the United States market in 2030 will be $42K complete.

How can you make a diesel RV heater for $100-$400 dollars?

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

You can get a low price on the Chinese units but I agree that the long term reliability is unknown and probably hard to get parts for repair.

The Planar heaters get good reviews, made in Europe...

https://totalcomposites.com/product-...ating-cooling/

We have the Webasto Dual Top diesel heat and hot water which works great but it is expensive at $3500 or so...

These heaters are made in Russia and indeed are high quality. Тепло�тар. �втономка. ПЖД. Предпу�ковой подогреватель двигател�, автоподогреватели, воздушные отопители, автомобильные подогреватели.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

I think the general public (myself included) become overwhelmed when you see these price disparities on somewhat similar Chinese made products.


Prediction
The first top spec all Chinese made RV coming to the United States market in 2030 will be $42K complete.

How can you make a diesel RV heater for $100-$400 dollars?

There are cases where the Chinese manufacturers are producing just as high quality campers as anyone else, Armadillo makes Expedition trucks using European chassis that are just as well made as the ones coming from the top European companies with a signifiant savings in cost.

浙江�野-阿莫迪罗

A company in Australia has their camper bodies built at a dedicated facility in South Africa and shipped over to be mounted on the chassis in Australia, again with high quality results and lower prices than if they did the work in Australia. These are niche vehicles but there are ways to take advantage of lower labor costs and still get high quality results. One issue with Class B builds is that the chassis needs to be certified and available in North America so that would be a challenge for a Chinese builder at the moment.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

....................

How can you make a diesel RV heater for $100-$400 dollars?

Diesel space heaters are simple, a combustion chamber and a fanned heat exchanger are in one aluminum cast, combustion and recirculating air pumps are coaxial, a metering fuel pump is a simple positive displacement piston stroke pump and a common glow plug. Issues are related to dirty, soot loaded, combustion byproducts and minimizing soot is challenging. Some folks use kerosene instead of diesel to clean carbon deposits. If I remember correctly biodiesel is not good for these heaters.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Propane combustion chambers require less maintenance and are more reliable. New furnaces from Eberspacher will likely be more reliable but still expensive. There are many new comers to the diesel water and space heater market for much lower prices but reliability is still unknown.

I have Isotemp water heater powered by either 750W heater rod or Espar Hydronic D5 furnace and Espar Airtronics D2 for space heating. D5 tends to be a little loud on outside and D2 is much quieter and it is the best RV space heater I ever had by far. My complete system was about $2500 with my installation.

The Espar D5 diesel-fired glycol heater sounds like a jet engine firing up. We are well sound insulated with 100% Hushmat applied to the shell and it is outside under the driver's seat so we just faintly hear it inside. But outside we were so embarrassed at Chisos Basin CG in Big Bend NP where RVs and tent campers are closely packed in together we didn't use it.

We normally leave the heat off overnight as we sleep in 20 deg F rated sleeping bags. We did run it when it got down to -9 deg F and below zero the whole time boondocking and used 2.9 gallons of diesel in a 21 hour period.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The Espar D5 diesel-fired glycol heater sounds like a jet engine firing up. We are well sound insulated with 100% Hushmat applied to the shell and it is outside under the driver's seat so we just faintly hear it inside. But outside we were so embarrassed at Chisos Basin CG in Big Bend NP where RVs and tent campers are closely packed in together we didn't use it.

We normally leave the heat off overnight as we sleep in 20 deg F rated sleeping bags. We did run it when it got down to -9 deg F and below zero the whole time boondocking and used 2.9 gallons of diesel in a 21 hour period.

At full blast, the D5 burns about 4 gallons in 24 hours so you must have had it close to the upper limit of BTUs it can produce in that time period.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The Espar D5 diesel-fired glycol heater sounds like a jet engine firing up. We are well sound insulated with 100% Hushmat applied to the shell and it is outside under the driver's seat so we just faintly hear it inside. But outside we were so embarrassed at Chisos Basin CG in Big Bend NP where RVs and tent campers are closely packed in together we didn't use it.
We normally leave the heat off overnight as we sleep in 20 deg F rated sleeping bags. We did run it when it got down to -9 deg F and below zero the whole time boondocking and used 2.9 gallons of diesel in a 21 hour period.

As I said in my post “D5 tends to be a little loud on outside and D2 is much quieter and it is the best RV space heater I ever had by far”.

Indeed, starting D5 is loud outside, with fully lined van with single and double layer of Thinsulate I can hear from inside hum of the D5 exhaust and can detect the running glycol pump. The D2 is much quieter outside, I think the difference is due to 2kW D2 and 5kW D5 powers and related combustion levels. With the D2 we keep night temperature at mid to high 50-ties.

I would suggest in your new built to add in addition to Hushmat a layer(s) of Thinsulate if you want ultimate quietness. Hushmat sound attenuation is up to 1 kHz and Thinsulate from 400 Hz peaking at 2 to 2.5kHz then almost flat to 6 kHz. Our van is insulated with a lot of Thinsulate forcing us to close windows on the road to keep it quiet.

[Davydd]

I have full thickness blue denim. I just didn't mention that as the Hushmat is the amazing sound deadener. Despite all the critics of denim, it performs better than Thinsulate in my opinion though ARV is now using Thinsulate. I've had the walls opened enough that the denim is performing well after 4-1/2 years. My next build I want to check out rockwool. I've had two other Class Bs with minimal insulation of fiberglass not very well installed. Boondocking at Walmart was not pleasant but our current ARV sound doesn't penetrate and the double-lined blackout curtains keep the light out and we can park anywhere even amongst the semis.

As for the D5 burning diesel I filled the tank just before parking on a street in La Crosse, WI about 3 miles from our destination. Then on leaving I filled up at the same station and filled at 2.9 gallons, so it was a real test. Since it was constantly below 0 degrees F at all times I suspect I can boondock camp for several days starting on a full tank of diesel fuel though I doubt I will test that experience if I can help it. I was trying to stay ahead of that polar vortex heading south last January.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I have full thickness blue denim. I just didn't mention that as the Hushmat is the amazing sound deadener. Despite all the critics of denim, it performs better than Thinsulate in my opinion though ARV is now using Thinsulate. I've had the walls opened enough that the denim is performing well after 4-1/2 years. My next build I want to check out rockwool. I've had two other Class Bs with minimal insulation of fiberglass not very well installed. Boondocking at Walmart was not pleasant but our current ARV sound doesn't penetrate and the double-lined blackout curtains keep the light out and we can park anywhere even amongst the semis.

As for the D5 burning diesel I filled the tank just before parking on a street in La Crosse, WI about 3 miles from our destination. Then on leaving I filled up at the same station and filled at 2.9 gallons, so it was a real test. Since it was constantly below 0 degrees F at all times I suspect I can boondock camp for several days starting on a full tank of diesel fuel though I doubt I will test that experience if I can help it. I was trying to stay ahead of that polar vortex heading south last January.

Rockwool was designed for houses where it is not exposed to vibration like in a vehicle. Small mineral fibers could be hazardous to health, a lot of articles about it. Thinsulate will not generate particle and was designed for marine or automotive applications.
Rockwool is treated to be hydrophobic but once this thin chemical coating goes away its mineral fibers become hydrophilic.
But, it could be good experiment.

[mrshowtime3]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Rockwool was designed for houses where it is not exposed to vibration like in a vehicle. Small mineral fibers could be hazardous to health, a lot of articles about it. Thinsulate will not generate particle and was designed for marine or automotive applications.
Rockwool is treated to be hydrophobic but once this thin chemical coating goes away its mineral fibers become hydrophilic.
But, it could be good experiment.

Yup there have been a few people over at the Promaster forum who eventually just outright removed the rockwool because of irritation. Bad news in a RV for sure.

[Davydd]

Thinsulate was designed for clothing.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Thinsulate was designed for clothing.

Thinsulate Acoustical Material was deployed over 20 years ago into automotive and marine markets. Many engineering resources went into it. Try to find Rockwool deployment data into these markets. Fitrv had “Interesting” Coachman insulation video of radiant barriers blocked from IR and Rockwool, so, 3M or Coachmen engineering, you pick.
https://web.archive.org/web/20180914...-62606944.html