Rok's Origional Letters/e-mails to Great West (VERY Long)

[Rok]

I found some of my original letters to GW that outlined all the issues we had on our first "voyage". It is VERY VERY long, at 12 or so typewritten pages, then there is a two page follow-up letter. I'm not asking anyone to read it, and it might be a waste of your time.

It might be humorous to some given that many of the items listed were "user error" (i.e. "our fault"), but the vast majority of the items are the type of things to look out for when buying a new rig. Like the lawyer on another thread said, the manufacturers know that you don't have much recourse once you take delivery, and they use it to their advantage.

Anyway some might like seeing what we went through, others will be bored to tears. You are forewarned....

The next post will be the first part of the letter.

.........Rocky

P.S. (Edit) The red text didn't show up as red, and some of the forum defaulted some of the numbering to various "smiley faces". Hopefully you will be able to parse the original from what follows.

[Rok]

Hi Ken,

Below is the letter (original written to Dave Debraga) I sent to you on April 16th. On May 1st, you called me and we had a rather lengthy conversation regarding each of the issues in the letter. To document our conversation on May 1st, 2013, I will go through the letter and outline what I believe were the agreements we came to in resolving the outlined issues. I will make my new comments in red to distinguish them from the issues in the original letter. With that said, here is a list of what I believe we agreed about these issues:

Hi Dave,

Maggie and I have completed our trip. We returned back in one piece, a bit wiser from the experience of our travels and our “camping” in state parks, commercial parks, and even once in a Wal-Mart parking lot. We now know what it feels like to go on a multi-week trip in a class B RV—the Great West Legend SE that you delivered to us a few weeks ago.
First we want to thank you and others in your company for taking our frantic calls during the trip. The first one about our concerns regarding the possibility of the SE freezing up under cold conditions--the advice that you gave us was right on and allowed us to camp without worrying about how it would affect the rig. The second call was regarding the muffler hitting something (we thought it was the trailer hitch receiver). Again it allowed us to continue on without worrying if the SE was going to blow up or something.
For the record, we have now had the unit in the shop at our local Mercedes dealer, and their diagnosis is that one of your techs left a rubber tailpipe hanger off when outfitting it with the motorhome accessories. We also got quotes regarding replacing the grill and another for replacing the condenser which we will address later in this letter.

In our 5-1-13 discussion I asked you if you felt that the assessment by Lynnwood Mercedes was correct. You said that it seemed accurate in that your company removes that part when outfitting the unit with the motorhome accessories. You said that you would pay this bill if we would make a copy of it and submit it to you. I don’t believe that you indicated how we were to do this. (1) Please let us know how to submit payments for reimbursement.

As you know, we did a lot of research before contracting to buy your product. We researched every one of your competitors as well as a number of other options. We took months to do this research which included endless hours on the Internet on hundreds of sites as well as a couple of dozen visits to various RV dealers, RV repair places, and even a Mercedes dealer. We entertained the option of going bigger into “Class B+” (another name for a small class C), and going smaller by having our VW Euro Van outfitted for camping. By the end of our research, we felt we were Class B Motorhome experts. We now know that we were missing a huge piece of the picture: actually living in a unit for a couple of weeks. We are now ready to give you our report which will include some good stuff and some bad stuff. Unfortunately we had more problems with the rig than we anticipated. We’ll get to that later. For now let’s outline the good stuff:

THE GOOD STUFF:
Here are the things about the van that we really found good:

(1) First and foremost, we think it is really cool that we as customers can actually interact with the very OWNER of the company. This is not available anywhere else in your industry to our knowledge, with the possible exception of the recent start-up Advanced RV, which, from our research, is off to a sputtering start.
The fact that we could call you on your cell phone during our travels was really an awesome thing.
(2) The second thing about dealing with your company is the plethora of features on your product in general, and the unit we received in particular. Your motorhomes offer the most features of any class B we know of, and certainly of any of the major manufacturers.
(3) The screen door that is a feature in your units is a nearly unique add-on that we really feel is a nice feature, especially for the small additional cost. We only used it a time or two on our trip, but we can see that when it gets warmer it will be a very useful feature.
(4) The size of the bathroom was, and is, also an attractive feature to us. The way the doors on the bathroom fold open into a little room is a feature we cannot applaud loudly enough. I consider it an engineering feat that it all fits together and works so well. There is no other company to our knowledge that does the same with a Sprinter based Class B motorhome. Bravo to your abilities of designing it.
Additionally, the way the drawers in the Galley can be used to prop the bathroom door open when the bed is out and the way the control panel door serves as a stop for the other side shows that there is a lot of thought put into your design—and we appreciate it.
(5) The overall floor plan is well designed and there are a lot of features that make living in such a small space bearable. In particular, the storage space is unmatched by any of your competitors. Much of this comes from your unique design of the tri-fold couch with the mammoth amount of storage underneath it. We could fit more than 7 plastic banker’s boxes full of stuff in that space alone—and that was not using the little sunken “trunk” which we used to store our electrical cords and water hose (with space left over).
(6) The size of our refrigerator, the size of our microwave, and the way they are placed are outstanding compared to your competitors—one of whom expected us to bend down nearly to the floor to use the microwave which was located near our feet (yuk)!
(7) The incredibly well laid out design and the little features that aren’t advertised show that someone in your company at some point really took an interest in communicating with the users of the product and listened and incorporated their ideas into the coach. After interacting with you before the purchase, we’re sure that a lot of that is a product of your efforts.

[Rok]

We are not astounded that you do this, however. It just seems like good business. What we ARE astounded about is that your competitors DON’T seem to make the same efforts.
( The cell phone booster seemed to work as did the wi-fi booster, but we don’t know yet if they justify the additional cost. We assume that we will find out in future travels.
(9) Another thing that we can’t applaud loudly enough is the chassis that you use. The Mercedes Sprinter Van is an unbelievable achievement of design and function. We cannot give it enough praise—it worked flawlessly.
Some research after our trip has made us aware that our particular rig contains some Mercedes features that are not found in all of their vans. In particular, the buttons on the steering wheel are not found in some of your competitors’ models. Likewise the dual map lamps on the headboard in the front aren’t present in some of your competitors’ units.
(The same research also provided us with some features that were left off of the base van—some of which ARE included by your competitors like the dual-stop sliding door, and the flat fix kit.)
(10) We didn’t even care about the concept of a Keurig coffee maker (I don’t even drink coffee), but Maggie found the coffee maker convenient in the confined space, and I found that there are hot chocolate and hot apple cider K-cups out there for me (although they cost nearly 10 times what a normal one costs—so, sometimes I use the Keurig to just make hot water for the bagged cocoa.)
(11) The fact that we could add on the special cabinet hardware, the side cameras, and the rear-view camera and monitor was also a very cool thing. It gave us the feeling of getting a customized unit with the security of getting a production model at the same time.
(12) The two coach batteries as a standard feature were really nice as well. Especially considering that most of your competitors offer only one coach battery standard and two as optional—and some of your competitors don’t even offer the second coach battery as a viable option (only as a 3rd party add-on).
(13) Last but not least, I should mention the price. At $107,000 it was a bit more than we were expecting to pay--considerably more than the $80K-$85K we could have bought a “comparable” Winnebago ERA for, and more than most of your competitor’s production models after dickering. However with all the features we expected to receive, we considered it a value—almost a bargain. The fact that the warrantee was transferrable if we sell within 3 years was also great. We like features and your van is loaded with them.

Unfortunately we didn’t get everything we expected, nor did everything we got work properly.

This brings us to the bad stuff—and unfortunately there is a lot of it:

THE BAD STUFF:
We arrived at our expectations of what we would get from several places: from the YouTube videos you made at Paul Sherry RV, from the information on your Great West Van web site, from your 2013 product brochure and 2013 Specifications Sheet (also from your web site), and last but not least, from numerous conversations with you.
In addition, we took the time to drive to Bellingham (about an hour north of us) to meet up with Paul, who had purchased a 2012 GW Legend Ex. By doing so, we were able to see the craftsmanship and get a “feel” for the van itself.
These sources of information were augmented by scouring the internet forums for comments about GW vans, not the least of which were huge write-ups by a fellow who goes by Davydd. Additionally we studied the sales listings on a number of dealers throughout the country for additional details and photos. Of course, we considered the information directly from your company to be the “reliable” information we could count on.
O.K., I guess it is the time to list the bad stuff. Before we start, I want to mention that we understand that the first two items on the list—the most important items on the list—probably cannot be corrected without either you taking back the unit and giving us our money back or you allowing us to trade it back in for another product. We consider either of these options unlikely, but on the off chance that you offer one of those options, we have not yet licensed the vehicle (a $10K + charge). Since we have it sitting in our driveway unlicensed, we would like to come to some sort of agreement about the following items as soon as possible.

First, the major issues: The first two are things we consider to be bordering on deal breaking;

(1) The size of the bed is too short. Despite my efforts prior to the purchase to make sure this wouldn’t happen, the bed is just too small. In one conversation with you, you personally assured me that the bed would be big enough for me at 6’ 0” and I would be comfortable. It isn’t, and I’m not.
Additionally, it is our opinion that the bed as a whole is too small for a couple—at least a couple like us. Maggie is fairly small, and I’m not huge, so this could potentially affect many couples and sale of your product. The smaller side of the bed (Maggie’s side) is cramped due to overhangs from the closet and a bump out from the bathroom for the new corner sink.
We do not believe that this complaint is due to our unreasonable expectations. I looked at the measurements in the literature, and during my phone conversations with you, I specifically asked you to measure the size of the bed. You said that you had one of your employees measure the very bed that was in the unit that would be destined for us. The numbers in the spec sheet, the numbers in the literature, and the measurement you gave me over the phone are all very much larger than the bed itself measures. In fact, it appears that the measurement in my notes from the phone call, 74”, is generous even if you are measuring unusable parts of the bed—like the portion that poofs out when you sit on it.

In response to the size of the bed issue, you offered us to build a bolster or cushion of some sort to fit between the bed and the back door so that the combination of the length of the bed and the bolster/cushion would more nearly measure up to the length on your specifications sheet.
I responded that I did not want you to go through the effort of doing this since it would not correct the main problem—me not being comfortable in the bed. I had expected the bed to be as long as it was in the spec. sheet PLUS I expected there to be some extra between the door and the top of the bed. Remember that we bought the SE sight unseen. We did see one of your larger versions, the EX which has one of the largest beds (if not THE largest bed) for a Class B motorhome.
Dave Debraga’s promise to me that at 6’0”, I would be comfortable in the SE can be written off as exuberant salesmanship, but I took it a bit more seriously than that and we relied on that comment to make our decision.
The end result of our (Ken’s & my) discussion of this matter is that nothing can or will be done by your company to make me more comfortable in the SE.
I did sleep in it many days, I was just a little less comfortable in it than I expected from Dave’s comments. So Maggie and I have let this issue go for now. If all the other issues are settled, we will try to live with it. (Unfortunately the EX wouldn’t fit in our driveway without some serious remodeling, so, with Dave’s promise, we opted for the SE.)

(2) The other major problem is another near deal killer. Before we contracted with you, Maggie was impressed when she read your specifications sheet that cabinets were solid wood. This was a feature that was of utmost concern to Maggie. She is sensitive to certain smells, and off-gassing of certain things gives her fits.
At one point in our studies I was pushing for the Winnie Era because of its low price, but she vetoed that when she was able to smell the Era vs. a Road Trek nearly side-by-side at an RV show.
Unfortunately, we now think that the Legend SE off-gassing smells worse than the Era Maggie nixed. While we haven’t torn any of the cabinets apart we are now under the suspicion that they are not hard wood, (unlike the cabinet doors which ARE hard wood). We have been told by others more knowledgeable that the cabinets appear to be made of some sort of fiberboard or plywood covered with a “melamine” coating to make it look like wood.
We feel that we were misled by your specification sheet. Moreover the off-gassing in the SE that was delivered to us seems worse than any other brand of Sprinter based Class B we considered.
We are not only concerned about our needs, but that these issues can affect your company and its sales numbers. Whatever you are doing that is different from your competitors that is causing the off-gassing may cost you sales in the future.
We are also surprised because we didn’t smell the same smells in Paul’s 2012 EX. Are you using different materials now?

There is also no resolution to this problem. When we discussed this matter we told you that we are not experts in wood, but when we mentioned the smell and what it might be to some of our friends, some of them who were more knowledgeable about those types of things said that much of the cabinetry in our GW Legend SE was not wood on the exterior at all and that it appeared to be covered with a melamine coating that looked like wood and was likely covering some sort of particle board or plywood.

[Rok]

When I mentioned this to you, you corrected some misconceptions and said the following:
(a) The cabinet sides are not covered with a melamine coating, but they are covered with something else that makes it look like wood.
(b) That there is some use of plywood in the construction of our van, but it was limited.
(c) That many places where the wood was covered with the fake wood grained covering, that the underlying wood was solid pine. You implied that this was more prevalent than the plywood covered with the fake wood print paper type stuff.
(d) That the smells that bother Maggie are more likely to be coming from glues and sealers that are used to assemble the van.
(e) If it was all hardwood, that it would be too heavy to use for the van. You also said that particle board is very heavy as well for that purpose and that is why you use plywood & pine in your construction.
(f) You asked me if we felt misled by your advertising of “solid wood cabinetry”. I said we did feel that way.

In the end of the conversation about this topic, you offered us nothing to try to take care of this issue and didn’t even say you were sorry that your literature misled us.

In addition to the two above issues there were a number of items that we didn’t get that we expected. At one point in the conversations with you, I specifically asked you what things we wouldn’t get in an SE that we would get with a 2013 EX (like Paul’s 2012 EX):

Unfortunately, you missed a few items that we didn’t get.

(3) We didn’t get a medicine cabinet. It is present in Paul’s 2012 EX, it is listed in the 2013 specifications sheet as standard equipment for both the 2013 EX AND SE, and it is also shown in the YouTube video you did at Paul Sherry RV. We were really expecting a medicine cabinet and were shocked when we didn’t get one.

When we discussed this issue you said that we didn’t get a medicine cabinet because we got the “new larger” fiberglass bathroom enclosure and it didn’t have a medicine cabinet in it. You mentioned that the old enclosure was made differently and had a medicine cabinet but no units with our bathroom had them—they had been replaced with a mirror only.
You also said that your company was in the process of redesigning the bathroom enclosure to incorporate a medicine cabinet because of the comments of consumers like us.
You did not offer any solution for us on this issue.
You did not explain why a medicine cabinet continues to be listed on your website as a feature for 2013 for both the EX model and the SE model (like ours).


(4) We didn’t get exterior security lights with an interior switch as listed as standard equipment on the 2013 Specifications sheet. We only got one light on the passenger side, and it doesn’t seem to have a working motion detector. We were expecting these things since we saw them both on your specifications list AND in the Paul Sherry video. (Additionally, the light we got might be leaking. Something in that area is anyway, because we have detected a leak due to water in the back upper passenger cabinet. More on that later.)

You said that your company might install a driver’s side light if it is feasible and that you would check on why we didn’t get a motion detector on our unit. You said that you would check on the feasibility of installing the lamp and get back to me.
(2) What have you found out about the feasibility of installing a driver’s side security light?
After talking with you about this issue, I found from another source that the motion detector is activated by flipping the switch twice instead of once. We have not been able to check to see if it works that way. (It didn’t appear in the manual for our unit, and I can’t remember Dave mentioning it in his instruction for us.)
Regarding the leak: you said for us to get a quote on getting the leak fixed for you to approve. You offered that just because the leak was in the upper rear passenger side cabinet, that it didn’t mean that the leak was back there. You said that water tends to travel and the source of the leak would need to be researched.
In response, I asked if any self-respecting RV repair place wouldn’t charge to find a leak since that was most of the work of fixing it and I asked if you would pre-authorize an amount for them to find the leak. You said you would check on that and get back to me.
(3) Have you checked? Will you authorize an amount?

(5) Paul’s Van had locking outside storage compartments with nice ace/barrel type keys. The 2013 Specifications sheet lists “Locking Outdoor Running Board Storage”. Ours just has little flipper levers. This is not a huge item, but it is something that we expected and didn’t get.

I don’t even remember if you offered to address this issue, do you?
(4) Will you address this issue?

(6) There is no “Exterior outlet with GFI Protection” on the SE that was delivered to us, at least none that we’ve seen. We have one inside the sliding door, but not one that could be used outside if we wanted to leave the van locked with something outside plugged in. This item is also listed on the 2013 Specifications Sheet.

I think I said I would drop this issue. We don’t anticipate needing an outside outlet.

(7) We don’t have little “cubbies” in the sleeping area like we saw in Paul’s van and in photos of other EXs. I doubt there is anything that can be done about that, but you might want to provide something for users to store glasses and books when they go to sleep. Under any circumstances, if someone asks what they won’t get when buying an SE vs. an EX, this should be mentioned.

I think you explained that there was more room in the EX to allow for the little cubbies and that is why they weren’t in the SE. (We understand that fully—I was upset that Dave didn’t mention them when I asked him (on the phone before ordering the van) what was missing from the SE that we would have seen in the EX.
Anyway, I don’t remember you offering any solution for this issue.

The bottom line is that there was a lot of stuff that we expected that we just didn’t get. You could point out that we had a chance to inspect the vehicle on delivery, but that brings us to our next complaint:
( We feel that we got the bum’s rush when the vehicle was delivered. With all the problems with the damage on the rig during transit, and the problems with the diesel hydronics not working, we didn’t have time to do a proper inspection. We both felt that we didn’t get adequate time to inspect the vehicle at delivery due to all the problems and your flight schedule. We will also point out that it was already 8 days late at that point, and we had gone through great rescheduling to even find time to look at it let alone completely inspect it.

As mentioned later, the diesel hydronics unit is again messing up—but differently. You said that we would have to check with the manufacturer to get it repaired. There are two problems with that: First, the SE arrived with the diesel hydronics unit not working, and Dave messed with the unit to get it to work while he was here and he might have caused the new problem with the unit by his “fixing” the old problem. Second, we don’t know if it is the diesel hydronics unit that is malfunctioning at this point because the problem is that the air conditioner fan turns on when the diesel hydronics heater is turned on. It is more likely a problem with the heating/AC controller unit or some sort of short in the wiring because the heater does heat the van, it just does it while the AC unit blows cooling air on us.
When I mentioned the likelihood of the problem being something else, you (Ken) said that you would need to check into it and let us know how to proceed.
Since that discussion, we have done additional research and found that while the diesel hydronics electrical system doesn’t seem to work when the unit is plugged into shore power, it does seem to work when the rig is powered by the inverter. It sounds like some wires are crossed, either arriving that way from the factory, or due to Dave’s work on the unit after it arrived. We are afraid that the ultimate failure of the unit may be due to this miswiring and therefor your company should cover this issue.
(5) How should we proceed?

This brings us to another complaint that will start the rough category of things that are broken that need to be fixed:

(9) At delivery, you told us that “a bird or something hit it”. The front grill was completely damaged by something that hit it during transit. (You’ve already accepted full liability for the damage.) There was also some damage to the condenser fins behind the grill. You sent us a replacement grill and paid to have Benchmark Motoring install it. Unfortunately the replacement grill was also slightly damaged (it was pointed out by a Benchmark tech before installation and later verified by a later inspection at Lynnwood Mercedes). According to Benchmark (who inspected the shipping box), it was NOT damaged in transit, but was sent damaged. They installed it anyway because it was complete and would serve its purpose for our trip.

The “a bird or something” issue still really bothers us. It CLEARLY wasn’t a bird, and it would have been even clearer to you before you washed the van prior to having us come by to see it. Why you chose to say it was, and why you were hours late on the first delivery day (after being 8 days late to begin with) bothered us. We were left waiting without proper contact from you until you had time to wash the rig, and it felt really bad. We know that you were in a spot and had to deal with the first rig that you’ve had damaged in transit, but we really wish you would have handled it differently and been more straightforward with us.
We have now had the vehicle inspected by Mercedes of Lynnwood and they fixed the tailpipe issue. According to Lynnwood Mercedes, the issue wasn’t a damaged tailpipe hanger, but a missing one, and their presumption is that your crew left it off when you outfitted the van.
I paid them $163.44 for this and an inspection of the damage of the front end of the van that occurred during transit. They couldn’t find any damage behind the condenser unit or any leaks resulting from the impact on the condenser. They gave me an estimate for replacing the condenser, and also one for re-replacing the grill.
So to summarize:
(9) I need to be reimbursed for the $163.44 charge.

If I remember correctly, you were going to tell me how to submit my paperwork for this to be reimbursed when you got back to me on the other issues. (As I’m writing this over 3 weeks after you were going to get back to me the next day on the other issues, I’m a bit miffed about the situation.) Anyway—
(6) How do I submit my paperwork so I can get my $163.44 back?

(10) I need to have the grill re-replaced.

I think this is another issue that you were going to get back to us about.
(7) What are you going to do to get the grill re-replaced?

(11) We need to discuss the issue of the damaged condenser. While it is mostly cosmetic and usable as is (according to Lynnwood Mercedes), there is a chance that the damage could eventually result in a leak, and we don’t want to incur an expense down the line for something that wasn’t our fault. Still I don’t want to ask you to replace something that is functional and mostly cosmetic—especially since the cost would be well over $1000.

I asked you if your company would warrant the original condenser for the life of our ownership of the vehicle if I don’t ask to have it replaced. You said that you could

[Rok]

only agree to cover it for the 3 year warrantee period. When I said I felt that that wasn’t fair, you said you would get back to me about this issue.

( Please let me know what you will do on this issue. Maybe it would be better if we just had it replaced and you could charge the company who transported the vehicle to us. I thought I was being nice by offering to not have it replaced, but it seems you were taking it another way.

So on to some other “things that are broken and need to be fixed”.

(12) According to Benchmark Motoring, when we took the rig in for the service on the rear view camera, the initial tests they ran showed that the radio was not properly receiving channels. Their comment to me was that is likely caused by the initial installation. They think that when the stereo was installed by your employees, they forgot to attach the antenna to some special booster antenna common to all Mercedes Sprinters.
Because of this, our radio (the one in the cab) didn’t work properly for our trip. We need the radio antenna attached. (Benchmark said this would take about 45 minutes to an hour.)

You said you would cover having this repair done.

(13) When (12) is addressed the radio will be out. At that point we should take the opportunity to make sure your guys attached the steering wheel buttons for the phone to the radio as well. It is something else that they might have overlooked.

You said that it wasn’t as simple as attaching the buttons and that there is a module that goes between the steering wheel and the radio that has to be purchased separately to do this, and it was too expensive for your company to include as part of the radio package.

(14) The reading lamps over the bed: The driver side one regularly comes off and hangs by a wire just by normal use. This also happens to the passenger side one, but not as often. I can’t see how this could be addressed properly without installing new lamps or (like other manufacturers) installing recessed lighting with a switch.

You said that there were little bracket ears that needed to be bent and the original lamps would work fine. You said to have the RV repair place to include this repair in their bid. (I voiced my skepticism to you on whether it would be that simple. Hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised.)

(15) When the SE was delivered, the Keurig Coffee maker was not positioned correctly on its little pull-out platform. That caused the lift up top to put pressure on the bottom of the countertop and downward pressure on the pull out platform (which, in turn bends the platform down) when the unit is used normally. The problem now has gotten worse with the screw falling out of the bottom of the platform. It appears that that screw was not screwed into anything solid in the underside of the Keurig unit in the first place. This needs to be repaired.

You said to have this repair added to the list when the RV repair place makes its bid.

(16) The rear view camera still isn’t what we discussed. Benchmark got it to work so that it can now be used as a rear view camera, but the mounting on the license plate causes the camera to be blurred often by road grime (while the upper one remains unblurred). Other companies that produce Class B’s with rear view cameras mount their cameras near where you mounted your backup camera, and I presume they don’t get as much road grime.
I hate to bring up this issue yet again—especially after you have gone through so much expense and trouble to try to make it right by us, but it still isn’t right. Neither the camera nor the monitor is what we expected. What Benchmark put in is light years better than what you originally had, but it is still not what we expected.
At this point, we are ready to give up on this issue and assume that for some reason it can’t or won’t be done to our satisfaction. After Benchmark tweaked it, it is at least useful for backing up, but it is still not useful as a rear view unit, like on a number of your competitor’s rigs. Even though we are still not happy with the situation, we know that you have incurred some expense already trying to make it right by us. Still it should be mentioned.

I think that in frustration I said I would let this issue drop. Maggie and I are still not happy that we didn’t get what we ordered. Dave explained why the situation was frustrating to him as well.

(17) The side view cameras are not working properly. According to Benchmark one of them (the left one) is clearly substandard &/or broken, and the other one “probably is” as well. While we don’t use them that often (as you told us initially we probably wouldn’t), it would be nice to have them working properly for the times we do use them. This is another issue to be addressed.

You said that we would need to check with the manufacturer of the cameras if they are malfunctioning to see if they will pay to have them replaced.
After you made that comment, I remembered that as a condition of us accepting the van, Dave agreed to take care of fixing the side camera monitoring. I think the problem is that the cameras are not ones that work well with the Kenwood head unit. Anyway, we want you to bear the expense of this issue.
(9) Will you take care of this issue?

(1 The tall “hanging closet” cabinet’s lock is located on the far upper right of the door. Unfortunately it doesn’t work up there. While we’re driving the door opens itself and everything in it comes out into the hallway. We need some sort of additional latch on that door.

I think you said for us to add this to the list for the RV repair place to put in their bid.
After our discussion, I addressed this issue to you in another e-mail. I was able to get the latch to work properly by adjusting the hinges (they had allowed the entire door to move downward). There needs to be a more permanent solution, however. I will address that with the RV place when they make their bid, unless you instruct me to do something else.

(19) Some of the other latches don’t work properly, either. They don’t pop-out when they are supposed to, but only pop out half way. The one that was cut to put on the control panel doesn’t pop out at all anymore. The best solution is to get us a few more of those latches and I can replace them myself.
For future reference, even at $17 per latch (the cost you quoted me) the latches you used don’t seem to be as good of quality as those used by your competitors. We still like them better than the originals we saw on Paul’s EX, however.

If I recall correctly you offered to buy us 3 of the latches so I can replace the ones that are malfunctioning.
(10) Is this what you agreed?

(20) Regarding the sewer outlet. The pipe always has some liquid in it when it is first opened (when the cap is screwed off) indicating that one of the pull valves isn’t working properly. We suspect the grey valve based on the consistency of the fluid. This needs to be addressed as well.

You said to add this to the list for the RV repair estimate.

(21) Initially, after you fixed it, the diesel hydronics system was working fine, but toward the end of our trip, the air conditioner would come on when we activated the diesel hydronics furnace. This seems to be some sort of a serious short in the electrical components. Yes, when we get the floor heater to work, the air conditioner fan comes on IN ADDITION. Thankfully it doesn’t seem to be blowing cooled air, but it doesn’t blow heated air either and it feels cold just from the breeze. It also is so loud that it is something many parks don’t want to let us have on at night while sleeping. The diesel hydronics unit itself pushes the sound limits without the loud air conditioner fan adding to the noise.

I addressed this issue earlier. See (5) in red above.

(22) The diesel hydronics unit’s electrical portion doesn’t seem to work at all. It not only doesn’t work without using diesel (as mentioned in your Paul Sherry video), but it also doesn’t seem to even stem the use of diesel. We presume it is broken and is not working at all. By the way, we concluded this before the air conditioner fan started turning on when the “furnace” was turned on.

You were going to find out about this as well and get back to me. Since that time I was able to experiment and it appears that the electrical portion of the hydronics unit only works with the inverter, and not with shore power. (When I flipped the switch while the inverter on, it showed a lot of use of power, so it’s doing something.) We feel that the hydronics unit is wired incorrectly, either due to a design flaw or because of the repair Dave made during delivery.

(23) One of the ventilation ports on the van, the upper one on the driver’s side, had the hole cut too large. The outer plastic ring is therefore formed to the oversized hole and the snap-in plastic grill doesn’t snap-in properly and instead tries to fall out. We’ve duct-taped it in for the time being, but it needs to be repaired.

You told me that despite them being designed to be removable for cleaning, that your company normally screws them onto the van and to add this to the list for the RV company to make a bid on and repair.

(24) As mentioned earlier, there is a water/rain leak in the far back upper passenger side cabinet.

(I covered this earlier. See (3) in red above.)

(25) As I mentioned to you in a phone call, when we first turned the water filter unit on, we woke up the next morning to a puddle in the living area of the coach. I traced the problem to a feeder pipe (feeder plastic?) connection. This needs to be repaired.

You said to add this to the list for the RV Repair bid/estimate.

The next section contains items that we’re pretty sure don’t work properly and need to be fixed, but we’re not sure they are not operator error:

(26) The refrigerator “auto” setting often doesn’t turn the refrigerator to 12 V. When we turn the propane gas spigot “on” and turn the refrigerator to “auto” it usually starts on propane and works O.K. When we turn the gas spigot “off” and then set it to auto, it won’t go to “DC”, but instead shuts itself off and the “Check” light comes on. It seems to work OK with AC, too. It just doesn’t cycle to DC when we use the auto setting. When we checked with Paul & Kim, they said theirs does the same thing.

You said you think there is a problem with our unit, but that you would check to see if the units that were coming off the line did the same thing and get back to us the next day.
(11) Have you found out if our refrigerator is working properly?

(27) The “Flying V” antenna doesn’t seem to work. When we turn it on, none of the LED lights come on. Because of this, the TV didn’t get any local channels on our trip.

[Rok]

You said you would check on this and get back to us. You now don’t have to since I continued to experiment and found how to get it to work. (I addressed this in my second e-mail to you.)

(27.5) (We left this one off the initial draft.) The inverter is not adequate to run the microwave. (According to your Paul Sherry RV video, it should.) When we tried it, the meter pegged out and an alarm sounded. Is there a problem with our system?

You said that the inverter should be adequate to run the microwave, and suggested that our batteries might have been low. We charged the batteries and were able to run the microwave using the inverter. It took up nearly 80% of the inverter capacity and put it into the “yellow” area, but it worked.

This last section is a conglomeration of things that could be categorized as generalized gripes and suggestions for your future reference to improve your product. They are not things we expect some sort of rectification for, but we should discuss them with you.

(2 The faucet you use in the bathroom is too short. It is hard to wash one’s hands without rubbing them against the stainless bowl, which isn’t that sanitary. A little longer spout would allow easier washing.
(29) The toilet tissue holder is directly under the shower head and is uncovered. If the shower head drips after the shower, as it frequently does, the roll of toilet tissue is ruined.
(30) The toilet is not porcelain. At this price point we expected a porcelain one. I think Paul’s rig had a porcelain toilet.
(31) There is no flat fix kit in the passenger step compartment as outlined in the Sprinter owner’s manual. This would be a nice feature to have, especially if one chooses to travel without a spare. Your competitor, Pleasure-Way, includes one with their new Plateaus.
(32) While we are on the subject of spares, we didn’t get one with our unit. You said that you could send us one or you could keep it at your warehouse so that it could be shipped to us when we are on the road if we need one. (A very nice offer by the way, thank you.) I think you even at one time said we could have two of them if we wanted to pick them up. This should be part of our discussion.

We didn’t address this issue in our discussion. Under any circumstances, we do want a spare tire. Dave said he would deliver one to us.
(12) Please let us know how you would like to handle this.

(33) In our conversations with someone, we were told that Road Trek had a special mount welded onto the trailer hitch receiver to accommodate a spare tire on the Agile. We’ve found that the “special mount” isn’t welded on the Agile, it is bolted on. You might consider offering something as an option for Legend customers. During our trip, we also saw a homemade one that someone had made for the front of a Sprinter that bolted to a plate under the engine.
(34) The sewer hose you included with the van is a nice thought so that we would have something on our trip to dump waste, but you might consider offering a better one as an option. (Some RV parks require an “L” shaped “bayonette” that screws into the sewer receiver and provides a completely contained route from the RV to the sewer.)
(35) The water regulator you included with the van (most manufacturers don’t include one) was nice to have, but it was so restrictive that the city water had less pressure than the pump. When we took showers with city water attached we had to kind of throw the water on ourselves. Can we use a regulator with higher pressure?

We didn’t address this issue in our discussion.
(13) Can we use a less restrictive regulator when hooked up to city water?

(36) Our water pump, by the way, frequently makes a lot of noise and delivers the water inconsistently in spurts. Is this common, or is it another problem that has to be dealt with?
(37) While on this subject: You might want to include a higher quality shower nozzle in future units. The one we got doesn’t stream out very well. The button is hard to press, too.

We think there is some sort of disconnect here in that you have some very, very nice stuff on the unit and at the same time some really low end stuff. Maybe you need to define whether you want to be the budget brand of Class B’s or the premium brand of Class B’s. You can’t really be both and mixing the two seems strange.

(3 Your tire pressure suggestions on the driver’s door panel are in part lower than the manufacture’s (Mercedes) of the van empty. This seems odd.
(39) There is a dual opening feature for the sliding door mentioned in the manual. Our unit didn’t have it. The PW Plateau does. I understand it is a MB “option”, but it would be a nice one to have for this application.
(40) Other options that seem like they should be on the Legend are rear defroster and maybe rear wipers. We can understand that with the side mirrors and all those may not be necessary for seeing behind the rig when driving, but some of your competitors include the defrost feature. One thing we couldn’t believe isn’t in such a luxury vehicle is a glove box light. Is one available from MB?
(41) In one of our phone discussions, I asked you if the SE had a “hanging closet” like the EX. You said it did. When Maggie and I went out with some clothes on hangers, they wouldn’t fit in the closet because it was too small to accept hangers. We don’t consider it a hanging closet if you can’t put hanging clothes in it. You might want to call it something else, like a “tall closet”.
(42) The passenger side seat in the cab is a bit cramped because of the post for the sliding door screen. Additionally, everyone we invite in seems to reach to grab onto the non-sturdy screen door receiver post. (I doubt there is anything you could do about either of those, however.) As mentioned earlier, it is nice to have the screen door.
(43) After sending us the wrong mileage report (our state requires an original), Lake Region wanted us to share the expense of getting it to us on time so we could register the vehicle before our trip. We didn’t do it and the vehicle is still not registered. During our trip we discovered so many problems with the rig that we thought you potentially might want to take it back, so we still haven’t licensed it.
(44) We found that one of the “safe” keys was bent upon delivery. I planned to replace the lock with a higher quality lock anyway, but you might want to use a better lock with better keys in the future. The “safe” is a very nice feature for you to add, by the way. I don’t think that any of your competitors add it. We would much rather have a safe with a bent key than no safe at all.
(45) Maggie doesn’t like the fake grey floor. In some of your literature you use the term “hardwood floors” without quotes. On the 2013 Specifications Sheet you use the term “heavy duty laminate ‘hardwood floors’”. We feel this is a bit misleading. We know of no hardwood that is grey.
(46) The AC outlet plug placement in the rig is not good for using a connected laptop or charging a cell phone. (Both outlets are above the galley.) We couldn’t get to the one behind the Microwave. One above the small front dresser (under the microwave) would be really nice.


O.K. Dave, so that is the list. As you might have guessed at this point we are not happy with our purchase. So, you probably are wondering what we want. Quite frankly, we don’t know.
If you were to offer us our money back on the rig we might grab it and run. We have not yet licensed the rig so if you want to take it back rather than deal with all the issues we would be all aboard for that. We doubt that you will want to do this however.
Short of that, we want a discussion with you to try to resolve these issues so both of us feel O.K. about it. Maybe that would include some sort of trade in on a unit that would suit our needs better. Again, we doubt you would want to do that either. Maybe it would include something else.
At this point Maggie and I feel misled by you and your literature and videos, etc. We also are not looking forward to the huge number of hours that would be necessary for us to haul the rig around to fix all the issues.
What we don’t want is to get in some sort of confrontational situation with you. Despite our feeling of being misled and disappointed, we feel that you have a lot going for your company and there is a definite desire to produce a vehicle that serves your customers’ needs. I personally think that with all your features and the start you have, that if you could work all the bugs out, you could become the major manufacturer of Class B’s in the world (should you want that).
I hope that you can come up with something that will resolve the issues and leave both parties feeling O.K. At this point, we don’t know if that is possible.
Thank you for reading. Please let us know how you would like to proceed.

Sincerely,



Rocky & Maggie XXXXXXX

P.S.: We’re wondering what the new product you are developing is (according to your newsletter you have one in the works).

[Rok]

And here is a follow-up letter after they had dodged us for a while:

Rocky & Maggie XXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX.
Seattle, WA XXXXXX

5-20-13

Great West Van

Dear Ken,

On Wednesday, May 1st, 2013, Maggie and I had a lengthy phone call with you regarding the numerous problems we’ve been having with the 2013 Great West Legend SE we purchased from your company brokered by Lake Region RV.

At the end of that conversation, you asked us to hold off on getting an appointment for repairs on the list of issues because you needed to find out how to deal with several issues you could not resolve with us during that phone conversation.. You told us that you would find out the answers to the list of unresolved issues and call us the next day and let us know how to proceed. It is now 19 days later, and we have yet to receive that call. Keep in mind that this is the third time that you have told us you would contact us on a specific day and have not done it. You are now 100%, 3 for 3, on not calling us when promised. Please advise us why we should not be livid about this situation.

Since you have a pattern of evading us on the warranty issues on our Great West Legend SE, we will send copies of all future correspondence to you, the owner of Great West, Dave Debraga, and the owner of Lake Region RV, Dale Borstad. Hopefully one of the three of you will respond to the warranty issues present on our Great West SE.

For the sake of convenience, I will continue as if I am writing this to Ken, but my plea for assistance is for any of the three of you to answer our questions and help us resolve our issues since the unit still has severe problems and its utility is somewhat limited.

The following are a number of issues, questions, and general information that we are conveying in no particular order. Again, if any of you, Ken, Dave, or Dale can help us with any of it, we would appreciate it.

Here is the additional information, questions, etc.”

(1) At delivery, the Legend SE had a dent in the hood just above where the grill was damaged. Dave said that he would cover this as part of warranty and suggested that we take it to a place that specializes in that type of body work. We did not include it in our discussion with you, Ken, in the May 1st, 2013 conversation. Please add it to the list and advise us how to proceed.

(2) We still have a fairly expensive electronic rear view mirror that came with the van that Dave asked us to return to your company. Your company paid to have it replaced (it was incompatible with the new back-up system installed by Benchmark Motoring. It is boxed and ready for shipping and we would like to return it to you.

Additionally, we found a glass turntable and brown plastic wheel ring that appear to be to some microwave unit that is not a part of our Legend SE. It was obviously placed in our parts and manuals box by mistake. We would like to return it to your company as well.

Is it O.K. for us to send these items to Lake Region RV to avoid the problems dealing with customs, etc? Do you want us to ship these items using any sort of insurance? I think Dave said the mirror cost him something like $1500. We presume that you will reimburse us for shipping on these items? We would like to minimize the cost to you.

(3) Also in the box of accessories and manuals, we found a small bottle of Silicone Rail Lubricant, apparently for maintenance of the tri-fold couch rails. Unfortunately this bottle has nearly none of the fluid remaining in it as it leaked during transit. Can we get a full bottle of this lubricant?

(4) In our discussion on May 1st, one of the items discussed was whether the “Phone” buttons on the steering wheel were connected to the Kenwood Stereo unit in the dash. You said they weren’t because a special additional module was required to connect the buttons to the radio head unit and it was too expensive to include as part of the vehicle. We have noticed that the Kenwood also supports Sirius radio. Is the Kenwood unit in our van “Sirius ready”? Or, does it require some sort of additional module?

(5) Since our discussion with you, we have licensed our Great West SE since it now seems clear that the resolution of our issues will not include your company taking the SE back or us returning it for another model.
Now that we know that we will be keeping the van, there are a number of forms we probably need to fill out for registration of the van with your company (Great West) and also with Mercedes. Could you please advise us what we need to do to get the SE fully registered with everyone? (Please see item ( later in this letter.)

(6) Since our discussion on 5-1-13, we tested some various components of the antenna system and the TV. I am happy to report that I got the antenna to power up and work to get local channels for the TV. This was one of the items you were going to check on (one of the items on your list you were going to research and get back to us on). For your reference, there is a little black button located on the co-ax faceplate behind the kitchen counter (accessible when the sliding door is open) that must be pressed to power up the antenna. So, this is one thing we can check off the list. It did, however bring up two more issues:
(6a) There is a similar little black button on a similar co-ax faceplate in the cabinet above the driver’s chair (next to the cell phone booster). Does this need to be on for the cell phone booster to work? If not, what is the purpose of this button, and for that matter, what is the purpose of the co-ax connector in the faceplate?
(6b) Is there a way to make the sound from the TV play through the speakers above the bed? (Rather than through the speakers on the TV.)

(7) Maggie and I also worked on the tall cabinet door (behind the bathroom). The clasp for that door was allowing the door to open and spew the contents out onto the floor while traveling. Initially we thought there was a problem with the button/clasp, but we found out that the hinges have an adjustment to raise or lower the entire door. The entire door had moved/jiggled down, and once the hinges were adjusted the clasp could again clip and hold the door closed. This is likely to be a continuing problem, so it is likely that a small piece of plastic or something will have to be put under the door to hold it up. When the door moves down, the clasp paw has nothing to catch on (leaving the door to freely open and dispense the storage in the closet onto the floor).

( We got a phone call from Lynnwood Mercedes, the company that fixed the muffler hanger and checked out the grill & condenser. Anyway, while the SE was in their shop, they performed a recall procedure and the purpose of their call was to tell us that our SE had not been registered with Mercedes Benz, so they couldn’t get paid for the recall procedure. Please advise us on registering the vehicle? (See also item (5).)

(9) I can remember two of the issues that should have been on your list (in addition to the question about the TV antenna operation): (1) How am I to proceed with the diesel hydronics problem, and (2) Is the refrigerator problem we are experiencing something that all the units have?

(10) I didn’t compile a list of things you were going to check on. I presume you have it. Can you please send me a copy?

(11) Maggie and I feel that it is inappropriate for you to request of us to attempt to get reimbursed from the manufacturer of the side view cameras when a condition of our acceptance of the van was that Great West repair the side view monitor issue and Dave signed a statement to that effect. If we have these cameras replaced will you cover the cost of this expense as initially promised?

From this point forward I will try to recap the issues presented in the discussion between Ken and Maggie and me. At this point everything has been oral. We feel that some sort of written documentation of our agreements will be an aid for both parties in reaching a resolution of the issues presented.

So, if you could please respond in writing from this point forward, we would appreciate it.

Thanks.

…………Rocky & Maggie XXXXX

[Bud]

Rok,

Hope it is ok as I forwarded your posts to these folks:

Home | Guinness World Records

Bud

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Rok

I... and some of the forum defaulted some of the numbering to various "smiley faces".

When you have a number 8 immediately followed by a closing bracket )
you will get

the solution is to put a space between the 8 and the )

like this:

8 )