RoadTrek's EcoTrek

[BobB]

Davydd,

Thank you very much for your summary; I will read through your Alvar thread for that analysis.

I project our aH use to be very modest. We do like some NPS parks (Ocracoke and Assateague) which do not have hookups and we would need batteries w/other charging methods.

Coming from boats and an EVC, we have never used a microwave (have not been on a charter boat that can handle one when not on shore power - inverters usually allow laptops and that is about it). Microwave for us, even at home, is to re-heat coffee. On a boat we use it for a breadbox!

If it's under 80, we generally use 12v fans at night. Daytime, we are outside in the shade. An nice Maxx Roof fan + a portable 12v fan would be about it for us. When it was 85 + humid in Florida this spring, A/C would have been nice on a few rainy nights.

We have never had a TV. Don't think we would use it much; we like to read, but even our EVC has LED lights. Maybe that rainy hot night in Florida, use the A/C, and watch a DVD.

Without occasional A/C, Fridge (I would prefer 12v/110v, no propane thank you) is probably the only item that would use the most power most of the time.

Are there any good energy audit worksheets on this forum? I have an old one from West Marine, but would like one that really includes latest battery types, and latest charging options (solar, generator, undressed generator).

[booster]

Originally Posted by BobB

Davydd,

Thank you very much for your summary; I will read through your Alvar thread for that analysis.

I project our aH use to be very modest. We do like some NPS parks (Ocracoke and Assateague) which do not have hookups and we would need batteries w/other charging methods.

Coming from boats and an EVC, we have never used a microwave (have not been on a charter boat that can handle one when not on shore power - inverters usually allow laptops and that is about it). Microwave for us, even at home, is to re-heat coffee. On a boat we use it for a breadbox!

If it's under 80, we generally use 12v fans at night. Daytime, we are outside in the shade. An nice Maxx Roof fan + a portable 12v fan would be about it for us. When it was 85 + humid in Florida this spring, A/C would have been nice on a few rainy nights.

We have never had a TV. Don't think we would use it much; we like to read, but even our EVC has LED lights. Maybe that rainy hot night in Florida, use the A/C, and watch a DVD.

Without occasional A/C, Fridge (I would prefer 12v/110v, no propane thank you) is probably the only item that would use the most power most of the time.

Are there any good energy audit worksheets on this forum? I have an old one from West Marine, but would like one that really includes latest battery types, and latest charging options (solar, generator, undressed generator).

You would use less that we do by a little bit, most likely. We are setup much like you are talking about. 12v everything, including frig, tv, dvd player. We use somewhere in the 25 to 60ah per day, most of it for the frig and the detectors and monitors. We can cover the use we have easily with 300 watts of solar on all but the worst days. We do watch the TV, DVD, but they are very low usage at about 2.5 amps total.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by booster

You would use less that we do by a little bit, most likely. We are setup much like you are talking about. 12v everything, including frig, tv, dvd player. We use somewhere in the 25 to 60ah per day, most of it for the frig and the detectors and monitors. We can cover the use we have easily with 300 watts of solar on all but the worst days. We do watch the TV, DVD, but they are very low usage at about 2.5 amps total.

Thank you Booster.

I was beginning to think maybe one 200-300W panel would do it. Underhood generator instead of separate gas or LP generator.

I read through more of the Advancing Alvar thread. I noticed Davydd's statement:

"With careful planning, solar and second under hood dedicated engine alternator you could probably get by with as little as 400ah of lithium ion with solar and stay 100% off the electrical grid at will."

Also agree with his comments on "smart travel". I think we would only really use A/C if (1) really hot out at night (2) hookup available.

What size battery bank do you have? AGM? Planning on upgrade to LiFePO4? Would you keep same size bank?

[Davydd]

I hold to that based on the fact in a day's time doing everything I possibly can to be energy wasteful all day I could not exhaust a 400ah lithium battery and could recharge it in a very short time usually under an hour. Driving to the liquor store to replenish the beer supply usually does it.

If you conserve like you did before lithium then it is a no-brainer. The fact is like everything, if you have it you use it, but at 400ah I think it becomes very much easier to where you don't have to constantly fret and adjust what you are doing.

[booster]

Originally Posted by BobB

Thank you Booster.

I was beginning to think maybe one 200-300W panel would do it. Underhood generator instead of separate gas or LP generator.

I read through more of the Advancing Alvar thread. I noticed Davydd's statement:

"With careful planning, solar and second under hood dedicated engine alternator you could probably get by with as little as 400ah of lithium ion with solar and stay 100% off the electrical grid at will."

Also agree with his comments on "smart travel". I think we would only really use A/C if (1) really hot out at night (2) hookup available.

What size battery bank do you have? AGM? Planning on upgrade to LiFePO4? Would you keep same size bank?

We currently have 375ah of wet cells, with the major issue being that they are mismatched banks so the charging and discharging are not ideal or easy to control and monitor. We have removed the Onan generator and will be putting 440ah of Lifeline AGMs in the generator spot (four 6v GC2). We do have a 250amp alternator in the van, that works the same as an engine generator. So far, we have never even seen 50% discharge on the batteries.

The 300 watts of solar we have will give us about 90ah on a good sunny day, which approaches 2 days worth of use for us. On cloudy, shady conditions, it really drops off, we can easily be only 10ah.

We decided to go with the AGM mostly because I just don't think the lithium is ready for prime time as a DIY yet, and I don't want to be dealing with heaters and the appropriate controls. I would love to have the middle of the state of charge ability they give, but we will wait a while. With the charging systems we will use, our AGMs will get the very best care possible, I think.

400ah of batteries with 3-400 watts of solar is a good system size for what you are looking at, either in AGM or lithium.

[Nomad32]

Second list of EcoTrek questions, more about details.


Q- why did Roadtrek develop its own system?

A- the testing and data we gathered off the original lithium systems we tested showed serious issues that will simply not allow these off the shelf systems to last.

What we found was that we were not dealing with engineers, we were dealing with marketers who simply packaged the batteries into boxes that looked like an RV battery but had lithium stamped on the side. Let's say a company makes lithium ion batteries standard in their units and they haven't done any actual data and research. What will happen to them is they will be using actual consumers as mine canaries. There is a huge safety issue here that people don't understand. These systems draw huge amounts of Amps when charging. And they can have huge amp spikes when isolator and breakers open and close. They have voltage drops due to the way traditional units are wired.

And how do we know this at Roadtrek? We tested the supposed off the shelf drop in units. And generally they functioned. Until it was discovered that heat shut them off. So we dug into them. And we cut them up. And we began the process of understanding the technology that existed in the marketplace through dissection. And the more we dug in, the more we realized through testing and data that the chemistry of lithium ion batteries varies even if they claim to be of the same formula. And that there are crappy cells, and there are good cells. And then the way those cells are handled are done by battery management systems.

But the industry is clearly divided into two distinct groups. Cell Makers, and BMS makers. And in a lot of cases BMS makers were generic. They didn't make a BMS specific to RV's. RVs experience a much different range of environmental and usage effects and demands than autos, race cars, boats, aircraft, and many others do.

So like many things we find in this technology we found that boutique firms are everywhere repacking cells, and using BMS systems that are programmable so they can adapt and try to optimize. Those systems, and we looked at a lot of them, don't do what is needed for Roadtrek. So, having a great deal of machine design and electrical design expertise at Roadtrek at the top of the operations side, (me , howard, jeff) we set out to conceptualize, then create a working model of what we wanted using industrial controls.

We were able to do that and then refine down the changes and make an incredible system, that, using our data, controls and protects both the cells and the Roadtrek itself while ensuring maximum charge and discharge availability. Environments change constantly.

Temperature, usage, discharge, etc. our units are setup to make the cells last without sacrificing performance. And done using real data. And validated in the lab, and in the field each time every time.

You can buy lithium for your jetski if your want. But if you cut open the box and look inside, you may find thirty six d cell batteries all packaged together with a system that shuts them off when they are hot, and when they are cold. And that same system will just have bottom limits for discharge. And it might shut off the system if individual cells get out of line in voltage, that's fine, very nice in fact. They all do that.

What they don't do is optimize the cell use. When you wire something in series the last cell gets worn out first. What those other systems don't do is use different charging sources effectively. They just bundle the power and treat it all equally. So if you are freezing cold -20 F and solar is just pumping away, they damage your cells. And that damage is incremental and will eat up 3-9 percent of battery life.

We offer six years warranty on our units with the high technology. I want these modules to last ten or twelve for sure. So I decided that investing the right amount of time and effort to do this right for a small motorhome and eventually the entire industry would be worth it. We have inside test labs, outside test labs, full time staff, multiple interns, inside and outside engineers, we have test modules of about forty different designs. We have evolved and the results are pretty damn incredible. I hope that answers some of the more detailed questions.

[markopolo]

Any published pricing yet? I think that's what people want to know at this point.

[BobB]

It would still be interesting to understand why they did not go with someone who makes complete systems - like a MasterVolt or a Victron. Both have more than a few years experience (and data) in the marine industry, where "off the grid" really means something. In the middle of the ocean, things have to work right.

Unfortunately, it probably came down to $$. RT can/will do it cheaper. And, maybe, they figured they did not need a system that good. If it fails, you can just pull off the road and get it fixed.

JH said something along the lines of, while there is a 6 year limited warranty, he hopes/expects (?) to get 10 years service - or something like that.

Yes, a 10 year warranty would be nice. My fear is not enough real world beta testing (2 guys in 2 vans?) - before coming to market. FYI - I have the same fear with other manufacturers, too. My window for new/used RV is probably 2-3 years out; hopefully this will have sorted itself out by then.

[Nomad32]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Any published pricing yet? I think that's what people want to know at this point.

Pricing was mentioned earlier in this thread.

[avanti]

I think they did it themselves because it is EASY, at least if you happen to have a qualified EE on your staff, which I suspect they do. The only hard part is reliably and safely controlling high-current systems (as in the inverter/charger), and I'm sure they bought those parts. Pretty much everything else you need can be bought from Sparkfun.com. As I said before, the other side of the coin is that we are still in the high-profit/few-options phase of the market for this technology. Combine these two things, and rolling their own makes perfect sense.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by Nomad32

Pricing was mentioned earlier in this thread.

I have been following every thread on Facebook and there are only two numbers put out by JH... there was a $6000 number thrown out with no breakdown of which system. And then there was a mention of $2400 for 400 ah... but again what did that number cover. I have talked to my dealer (and so did another buyer with a Zion on order) and they know less about the system than I do from reading the Facebook threads. And this is Lake Region, one of the more dependable dealers.

They will be going to the territory rep on Tuesday (Monday being a holiday in Canada) with my list of questions to see what they can tie down as to the price for each system.

[Nomad32]

Originally Posted by mumkin

I have been following every thread on Facebook and there are only two numbers put out by JH... there was a $6000 number thrown out with no breakdown of which system. And then there was a mention of $2400 for 400 ah... but again what did that number cover. I have talked to my dealer (and so did another buyer with a Zion on order) and they know less about the system than I do from reading the Facebook threads. And this is Lake Region, one of the more dependable dealers.

They will be going to the territory rep on Tuesday (Monday being a holiday in Canada) with my list of questions to see what they can tie down as to the price for each system.

Here is a link to a window sticker on a 210 Popular with an 800 system:

http://americanrv.com/sites/american...iles/10324.pdf

[BobB]

Originally Posted by avanti

I think they did it themselves because it is EASY, at least if you happen to have a qualified EE on your staff, which I suspect they do.

From what I read in this forum, other forums, and the internet, there seems to be a "difference of opinion" on how to best put these systems together. And that "difference of opinion" seems to also be amongst "qualified EE's".

I am not an early adopter. I wait awhile for price drops, market/consumer feedback, next version, etc. Any manufacturer's claims that are along the lines of "trust me" really don't cut it in today's world. Recalls are far too frequent.

Show me the design, explain the testing, demonstrate with real-world data, give me an unlimited warranty (if your system is so damn good).

Do that and I will show you the money. In the meantime, I will wait.

[avanti]

I totally agree. I'm waiting too. My "easy" comment was only meant to apply to building the hardware, not deciding what to build. Early days.

[gerrym51]

based on what i have been reading and infering it will be about 3000 dollars for each 200 amp hours

[booster]

I agree with Bob, and am waiting for the same reasons.

As they say, history tends to repeat itself. With that in mind, would you trust the claim of lots of electrical expertise, when they are the same folks that said you could run an original etrek for 9-12 hours of air conditioning, and recharge in 45 minutes?

The new Roadtrek system may be as superior as they claim, but only time will tell.

[Jostalli]

I'm actually surprised there aren't more commercially available LiFePO4 options. There are hundreds of boats that I know of who have LiFePO4 batteries with 5+ years of problem free use. Mastervolt and Genasun have had plug and play lithium battery systems for almost a decade. I've been following the DIY discussion for 4-5 years but never had a great use for them until now. There are hundreds, if not thousands of electric bike and car owners who would call this technology pretty standard at this point. By the way, in a study testing safety of lithium batteries in the 2012 edition of Electrochemical Society Magazine, LiFePO4 was named the safest lithium battery chemistry: http://www.electrochem.org/dl/interf...2_p037_044.pdf

The assembly and parts are not the problem. Most BMS's perform similar functions. The fact that RoadTrek decided to build their own BMS may be more about their brand than anything else. It's not difficult to copy any of the popular BMS's from Elite Power Solutions or OrionBMS. Then all they have to do is set charge profiles, rules and functions for temperature extremes, and functions for over/under charge protection.

Who will be the first to see the EcoTrek and take photos so we can figure out the parts used?

[gerrym51]

you guys are too critical. the current e-trek has batteries and gets different amounts of air conditioning use based on where in country and temperature.

how can lithium batteries-not be better. Davydd has lithium and swears by them.

Just because Roadtrek won't give you schematic.

i love my roadtrek. i will love it more with the lithium batteries i will be buying for it.

i just don't have unrealistic expectations.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

based on what i have been reading and infering it will be about 3000 dollars for each 200 amp hours

That seems to be close, but I'd sure like to see actual MSRP from them... and what my dealer will or won't discount.

I think the 200 ah will be sufficient for me and my "smallstar" as you named it on Facebook (where I have a different pseudonym), but I'd love to get some definitive answers.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by mumkin

That seems to be close, but I'd sure like to see actual MSRP from them... and what my dealer will or won't discount.

I think the 200 ah will be sufficient for me and my "smallstar" as you named it on Facebook (where I have a different pseudonym), but I'd love to get some definitive answers.

Mumkin-2 volt agm batteries give you 110 usuable amp hours. you would be picking up some with a 200 lithium but i would think 400 will be more efficacious.