RoadTrek's EcoTrek

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

Putting the setup in an older unit without the inverter upgrade, engine generator, etc, would just get you battery capacity at lower weight, which ain't all that bad for many.

I think the 200ah setup into a "normal" 12v based Roadtrek would be a very good setup, although pretty spendy.

I don't think you will see the big packs into existing units. Maybe 400ah on a few, but not bigger.

i think they just use multiples of the 200. maybe i'm wrong

[Davydd]

Some take aways.

The Wendland Campskunk units are not what they are selling in EcoTrek. They are an older generation.

Did the early Etreks use the Smart Battery or was it some other battery system? I think he alluded to Pleasure-way now using what they tried and saying that system failed for Roadtreks.

He is still not transparent. He is still saying it is a sealed box the customer can do nothing about thus has no business knowing I guess. He also does not give a simple layman description about how all those thing that "just work" operate. My battery box is sealed and I know there is absolutely nothing I can do with it myself, but I at least understand it somewhat.

They buy cells and assemble them in a package. That's pretty much what Advanced RV does and all those yachting sources. I think he is saying they make their own BMS. That is interesting or do they modify someone else's? Again there is that trust factor coming from someone that said earlier lithium efforts failed. If third party one could at least investigate how well they worked with other companies using them.

Bottom line. Roadtrek is putting a new line in the sand and promoting boondocking wholeheartedly second generation beyond Etrek. I have said they would be the ones changing expectations and not Advanced RV. Hammill cited $1,000 per month boondocking savings on campground fees as making it affordable. That's nearly true. Unfortunately true is our whole RV campground culture is modeled into campgrounds you can plug in to and there are very few boondocking opportunities that are satisfactory. We don't want to have to depend on Walmarts to get that savings. However, I have experienced what he is saying. I'm all in as is Roadtrek. As I said in another thread Pleasure-way is not. Lithium batteries alone don't change an RV culture.

[markopolo]

Tell me if I have this right:

EcoTrek is a custom designed LiFePO4 battery pack with BMS.

Voltrek is something that will start the van engine when batteries are low.

So you might be able to buy an E-Trek with EcoTrek and Voltrek?

In terms of A/C runtime in a suitably equipped unit, would you guesstimate:

EcoTrek 200 - 1 to 2 hours
EcoTrek 400 - 3 to 5 hours
EcoTrek 800 - 6 to 10 hours
EcoTrek 1600 - 12 to 20 hours

That's with other systems running like the fridge etc.

[Davydd]

It might depend on the air conditioner they put in. Nothing was said but if they are offering 600w of solar I am guessing they would have to put in something like what Wendland got off the roof. Of course we still don't know what that is but perhaps a more energy efficient 12V system? Not that I am overly enamored or desirous of air conditioning but that would be "kewl".

[BobB]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Tell me if I have this right:

So you might be able to buy an E-Trek with EcoTrek and Voltrek?

So my question is "can you buy a Zion with EcoTrek and Voltrek?" The Zion - due the PM base vehicle (like Travato) is at a better starting price point for me.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by BobB

So my question is "can you buy a Zion with EcoTrek and Voltrek?" The Zion - due the PM base vehicle (like Travato) is at a better starting price point for me.

yes- but max ecotrek400

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Tell me if I have this right:

EcoTrek is a custom designed LiFePO4 battery pack with BMS.

Voltrek is something that will start the van engine when batteries are low.

So you might be able to buy an E-Trek with EcoTrek and Voltrek?

In terms of A/C runtime in a suitably equipped unit, would you guesstimate:

EcoTrek 200 - 1 to 2 hours
EcoTrek 400 - 3 to 5 hours
EcoTrek 800 - 6 to 10 hours
EcoTrek 1600 - 12 to 20 hours

That's with other systems running like the fridge etc.

Just bringing this forward with some new thoughts.

As a very general guideline I think you could say that there's 1 hour of air conditioner use available per 100 amp hours of 12 volt useable battery capacity.

The key word is useable. I'm using this published magazine article about the Roadtrek CS Adventurous with 8 AGM batteries as support: http://www.fmcmagazine.com/back-issu...venturous.html

Roadtrek engineers told me that the stand-alone capability for operating the air conditioner when relying on the house batteries can range between three and five hours, depending on outside temperatures.

The unit was described in the article as having 1600 amp hours at 6 volts which roughly translates to 400 useable amp hours at 12 volts.

There are more useable amp hours in lithium LiFePO4 batteries.

EcoTrek 200 - maybe 160ah useable
EcoTrek 400 - maybe 320ah useable
EcoTrek 800 - maybe 640ah useable
EcoTrek 1600 - maybe 1280ah useable

so I could revise the A/C runtime guesstimate numbers to look like this:

EcoTrek 200 - maybe 160ah useable - 1 to 2 hours
EcoTrek 400 - maybe 320ah useable - 3 to 5 hours
EcoTrek 800 - maybe 640ah useable - 6 to 9 hours
EcoTrek 1600 - maybe 1280ah useable - 12 to 16 hours

It looks like the EcoTrek 400 might perform pretty close to the 8 battery E-Trek package. The EcoTrek 800 would be a substantial gain compared to the prior 8 battery E-Trek package.

[wincrasher]

I'd like to know more about how they destroyed a pile of Smart Batteries. By all accounts, these batteries have a sophisticated BMS onboard them already.

Jim is inferring they custom designed and built their own BMS from scratch including building their own circuit boards. I have a real hard time believing this whole spiel. Part time university interns and contract engineers doing this? LOL.

I can see the desire to make a sealed pack where a layman doesn't have to tend anything and can protect itself from stupid stuff people tend to do. I get that. But that also doesn't mean that if you pay them $20k + for a "system" it's none of your business what is inside it. If they are going to take that approach, then it needs to have a 10 year, no questions asked replacement warranty with it.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Jim is inferring they custom designed and built their own BMS from scratch including building their own circuit boards. I have a real hard time believing this whole spiel. Part time university interns and contract engineers doing this?

I actually don't find that part of the story all that implausible. From an engineering perspective, this is pretty trivial technology. There are plenty of job-shops capable of building such boards. The hard part is knowing what to build, and this information is slowly becoming readily available.

The interesting question is why they would bother. You only build rather than buy if your design goals differ from commodity solutions. Do they actually have a better mousetrap? We'll see.

[wincrasher]

Actually the reasons would be two fold.

First, make it cheaper. Comes with the benefit of also controlling your supply chain - nothing gets on back-order that way. If you really spent $1.5 million+ (which I really question), then this part is hard to understand.

Second, make all your customers have to come back to you and you only for parts. As a side benefit, you get to charge whatever you want.

[gerrym51]

I intend to get it as soon as i can. I am a roadtrek 'groupie'. Jim Hammill is aok.

[wincrasher]

Just sip the kool-aid Gerry, otherwise you'll get a moustache we'll all see.

[markopolo]

EcoTrek 400 on an engine generator Zion would be a very nice upgrade.

[BobB]

Markopolo,

Could you clarify something for me?

"Roadtrek engineers told me that the stand-alone capability for operating the air conditioner when relying on the house batteries can range between three and five hours, depending on outside temperatures. "

The next sentence is "With the solar package, the house batteries can be charged in four ways: solar power; the optional engine generator; while motoring down the road; or when connected to 30-amp shore power. "

Does the RT time take into account the solar panels on the roof, which, I assume on a hot sunny day, are also charging the batteries as you run the AC?

[markopolo]

That's a quote from the article. I'd assume the RT engineers factored the whole package in.

You might be out all day and want A/C in the evening or parked under shade. So many variables.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by BobB

Markopolo,

Could you clarify something for me?

"Roadtrek engineers told me that the stand-alone capability for operating the air conditioner when relying on the house batteries can range between three and five hours, depending on outside temperatures. "

The next sentence is "With the solar package, the house batteries can be charged in four ways: solar power; the optional engine generator; while motoring down the road; or when connected to 30-amp shore power. "

Does the RT time take into account the solar panels on the roof, which, I assume on a hot sunny day, are also charging the batteries as you run the AC?

Yes. All work simultaneously on charging. At least my Advanced RV does and I take the Roadtrek statement to mean the same. The solar panels contribute to charging at all times they are working. Going down the road probably is when they are most efficient as there will be little chance of shading such as in a treed campground.

Motoring down the road is actually the same as the optional engine generator. As I reported in my Advancing Alvar thread, I get more charging the higher the RPMs thus more charging driving down the road than idling. The lithium batteries should be able to take all the current you can deliver to them. The more current the faster charging. Solar in my opinion takes a back seat to the engine generator because charging is so fast your batteries top off rather fast on the road usually during optimum solar time so where solar is most efficient it is all going to waste many days.

The engine generator easily delivers way more current than shore power on my Advanced RV. I suspect the same with Roadtrek. I am curious. If an Onan generator operates identically to shore power in delivering AC current is it also less efficient as a charger as shore power thus not as fast as the DC current engine generator?

[BobB]

Originally Posted by markopolo

That's a quote from the article. I'd assume the RT engineers factored the whole package in.

You might be out all day and want A/C in the evening or parked under shade. So many variables.

Thanks Markopolo.

Yes, so many variables.

For those with pets, who want AC all day since the pets are inside, then want AC at night is one usage scenario. AC 24/7

For me, I just only want AC at night to sleep comfortably - another scenario. AC 8-10/7.

Is the van parked in the shade or the sun?

Do you like your AC set at 65 or 75?

Would love to see some real world tests that consumers could use to determine how much aH to buy. And I don't think "as much as you can afford" is a good answer from the manufacturers.

One would think if RT can spend $1.5 million on their new research, you would think they could set up 4 vans, configured the same, in the same location (same weather, same temp), 2 in the shade, 2 in the sun, one each set at 65, one each set at 75, all with fridge running. Pick a nice hot week in June/July and set them out for week. Take measurements of usage, charging, etc. That would be a start to some real data.

Or is that all too simple?

[Davydd]

BobB,

I have exhaustively given a "real world data" analysis in my Advancing Alvar thread with an 800ah lithium battery pack and 420w solar and second alternator. My Advanced RV is similar to what Roadtrek is attempting with their EcoTrek concept. Roadtrek has historically exaggerated their numbers most likely to a theoretical lab max, and its two proponents with lithium battery Bs on the road have revealed little other than platitudes and generalities.

You can estimate fairly realistically how much air conditioning you can use. It is a paradox. Don't listen to it runs only part of the time. If it is too hot to absolutely need air conditioning the air conditioning is going to run most of the time typically at about a rate of 125 amp hours depleted from your battery bank per hour. MarkoPolo has estimated fairly close but I would use his lower number of hours. What people tend to discount in calculations are you also are depleting your batteries with all your other electrical requirements. So, if you think you are going to go through the night and all day with air conditioning you might come close with the 1600ah battery bank. But then it is a depletion game. Sit running the engine generator all day too to recharge? Keep your B totally closed all day? That's no fun in a campground.

Roadtrek will have 600w of solar with their maximum configuration. That contributes to longevity running off the batteries with fortunate luck if you have sun but will never restore the energy used so it is an eventual depletion game.

A 400ah - 800ah battery bank is not going to give you air conditioning satisfaction at least what you desire. It will be fine for short period of times as people have expressed desiring to walk away with pets inside. Personally I am more confident in opening up all my window vents and running a fan. In a campground I prefer opening up the back doors and sliding door and relying on screens. I also just follow the optimum weather 95% of the time. Lastly, when push comes to shove and you are sweating and dying, seek shore power. It is that simple for me.

[avanti]

For us, air conditioning is more about humidity than heat. We have literally never run the AC all night (we would probably be deaf by now if we did ). If we ever needed that, I agree shore power would be called for. But, it is extremely nice to come back from a sweaty hike and run the AC for 20 minutes or so to dry out the van and ourselves. Often, this is happening in a parking lot, not a campsite. That can be done with a fairly modest battery, and is readily replenished.

[gerrym51]

the key is not to over expect. i'm looking for 2-3 hours for the cats. i'm not expecting the 'deathstar' numbers of the super e-trek. if we did not have the cats i think the standard tppl battery i have would be fine.

when driving the van to this campsite i ran the roof air conditioner for the hour it took us. the engine generator kept the battery fully charged even when running AC.

my cats are my issue