RoadTrek's EcoTrek

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Have you checked the voltages when it is sunny out and when the engine is not running?

yes-when all 4 red lights say full-i assume that is correct-it is between 13.4 and 13.8. however that is without any loads.

i have seen it bounce between 12.8 and 13.4 once. that was with the fridge running and nothing else.

most of the times i've checked it it's been the 13.4-13.8. - accidently erased here the time i ran my engine generator and got 14.1-14.4, i don't remember if i had load or not

---i accidently as you know because of the wifes medical issues except for 1 3 day trip at a campground when i was plugged in i have only been testing at my storage facility which is outside with full sun. i am leaving for another 3 day trip today. i will post more when i have more-:

[booster]

I am assuming that the voltages you are seeing at the output of the solar charger or input to the batteries, and not the panel output? Some monitors will show both.

I am surprised the voltages are that low if the batteries are near full, unless it has moved to float.

Sometime, if you get a chance, it would be interesting to see what it runs for max voltage on full batteries (nothing else running) in the morning when a new cycle starts. It should go to absorption voltage for a time, even on full batteries, so you can see where it is set. To use the solar for topping the battery, you would want to see at least 14.4 volts.

If you have an accessibly display, you may also be able to see the settings, or if it is on dip switches they can be looked up in the literature from the switch positions.

[Jostalli]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Did anyone else pick up that Jim said they charge at 13.8 volts? Isn't that too low for LiPos?

Why do you keep calling them "LiPos"? They aren't lithium polymer. They are LiFePO4. 13.8V is the correct voltage to charge these batteries. This is why you must reprogram every charger you have (solar, inverter, alternator) when you add these batteries.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by Nomad32

This was posted by Jim Hammill on the Roadtreking Facebook group:

"Folks, on the EcoTrek side of things, I wanted to offer some commentary and perhaps a discussion start on the politics of business. Everybody will say, when they introduce a new product, we were the first to do this, or the first to do that. We do it too. Usually we are the first in Class B's, and usually companies copy the company that is succeeding to divide the market. Do you want the cost of Class B Motorhomes or small Motorhomes in general to drop? If you do, then support the companies that actually innovate. That actually do research. Buy their products. Don't buy the copies. I have said it before. Anybody can build a tin can full of boxes.

Anybody can take a 1950's level of technology and build something with a bed and running water. You don't want that though. Or at least the majority of you don't. You want an engineered to use product that gives you happiness, luxury and freedom. You don't want to have to sweat. Or listen to the machinegun fire while you run the AC. Or have to go out and run the unit for a hour each month under load. Or find the batteries dead all the time. You want to enjoy your time travelling and you won't do that if you aren't careful with your money.

So when you are buying Solar, does it work at the same time as the other charging sources? Ours does. Ask that question, because I guarantee it does not on other units. Is it a quality panel and quality charge controller? Make sure it is.

When buying lithium based batteries,,ask yourself this. Is it a lithium battery with a different companies battery management system on it? What does battery management system mean exactly? Can they explain what it means? Does it control battery temperature or does it stop the battery from working if temperature is to high or low? Does it control charging parameters and make it safe? Does it protect your cells from damage? How does it do that?
The answer to most of those questions is...simply put, they don't, because they are modules bought for race cars that have been tossed into an RV, by an owner or a tiny manufacturer.

We have designed and built with our own hands, tested in our own freezers and ovens,,then placed those units in the desert and in the mountains and in the -30 F temperatures and developed systems to make them immune to those effects.

And when you combine our solar, and our VoltTrek Autostart and our EcoTrek Power Modules, and the proprietary Etrek systems, and the specially designed inverters and chargers, these systems are optimized for your use. They are not just bolted and use the word solar or lithium in our marketing. We don't release them until they work. That's product development. That's engineering.

So when you read about all the reasons no one needs this newest technology, decide for yourself. People are proud of what they have. They should be. They defend it. They should. But people should open their minds and look at the details themselves. Don't rely on a competitor salesperson to tell you what is wrong with a Roadtrek. Lol. Make up your own mind."

Oh brother, it's getting deep in here! I guess using this arguement, we should be looking at an Advanced RV instead?

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

I am assuming that the voltages you are seeing at the output of the solar charger or input to the batteries, and not the panel output? Some monitors will show both.

I am surprised the voltages are that low if the batteries are near full, unless it has moved to float.

Sometime, if you get a chance, it would be interesting to see what it runs for max voltage on full batteries (nothing else running) in the morning when a new cycle starts. It should go to absorption voltage for a time, even on full batteries, so you can see where it is set. To use the solar for topping the battery, you would want to see at least 14.4 volts.

If you have an accessibly display, you may also be able to see the settings, or if it is on dip switches they can be looked up in the literature from the switch positions.

i put a digital readout into a 12 volt plug in the coach. I do this to make sure engine generator is giving current. ther is no other way to tell on engine generator system- Jim says if system on it will slowly rise-however i am getting full solar coverage and the sytem has never read less than fully charged on coach monitor. i am not knowledgable enough to do more than that

i thought i already put the 14.1 to 14.4 in my other post then realized i accidently erased it. i did have a day when it bounced between 14.1 and 14.4 it depends on my state of battery charge

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Good questions from Jim.

Is it a quality panel and quality charge controller?
Is it a lithium battery with a different companies battery management system on it?
What does battery management system mean exactly?
Can they explain what it means?
Does it control battery temperature or does it stop the battery from working if temperature is to high or low?
Does it control charging parameters and make it safe?
Does it protect your cells from damage?
How does it do that?

Has he answered them yet?

Those are excellent questions, and no, I don't think he has answered them, at least in other than very generic terms.

"Is it a quality panel and quality charge controller?" This is not a yes/no question-what are the parts and do how they play well together.

"Does it control charging parameters and make it safe?" same not yes/no

"Does it protect your cells from damage?
How does it do that?"

I think the last one he is asking for others to give information Roadtrek is unwilling to give.

The Roadtrek system may be very good, but the lack of transparency doesn't instill confidence in a lot of us.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by Jostalli

Why do you keep calling them "LiPos"? They aren't lithium polymer. They are LiFePO4. 13.8V is the correct voltage to charge these batteries. This is why you must reprogram every charger you have (solar, inverter, alternator) when you add these batteries.

Actually, we've had other discussions on this topic. 14.6 is the proper charge voltage.

[Jostalli]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Actually, we've had other discussions on this topic. 14.6 is the proper charge voltage.

And you would be wrong. 14.6V is not the proper charge voltage for LiFePO4 batteries.

[gerrym51]

there seem to be many opinions and authors out there. However it does appear that a continuous 14.6 is too high.

based on my tppl agm things smart alternators tend to bounce around.

13-8.-14.4 seems about right

[wincrasher]

Then look at this:

http://www.powerstream.com/lithium-p...ge-voltage.htm

And this:

http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/...on-battery.php

[Jostalli]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Then look at this:

http://www.powerstream.com/lithium-p...ge-voltage.htm

And this:

http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/...on-battery.php

And there are many more sources and product manufacturers telling you high voltage charging is OK but the reality is it is not.

It's a short read but really all you need to know on the subject: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/l...n_boats&page=1

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Jostalli

And there are many more sources and product manufacturers telling you high voltage charging is OK but the reality is it is not.

Respectfully, how do we know we should believe you and the articles that you cite, rather than others and the articles that THEY cite? Not being snarky--it is just that we seem to be in a "he said/she said" situation.

What do the manufacturers of the cells say? THEIR opinions probably have actual engineering behind them.

[Jostalli]

Originally Posted by avanti

Respectfully, how do we know we should believe you and the articles that you cite, rather than others and the articles that THEY cite? Not being snarky--it is just that we seem to be in a "he said/she said" situation.

What do the manufacturers of the cells say?

The article is the result of many years of real life testing and installations of the actual cells we use in boats and just recently RV's. There are countless long threads of actual users posting results on Cruisersforum.com. I've read almost all of them. Believe what you want. I'm going with actual tested results from people who have been using them for years.

And I have a LiFePO4 pack that I'm balancing now that will go in my Promaster conversion so I'm not going to be some armchair expert.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Jostalli

The article is the result of many years of real life testing and installations of the actual cells we use in boats and just recently RV's. There are countless long threads of actual users posting results on Cruisersforum.com. I've read almost all of them. Believe what you want. I'm going with actual tested results from people who have been using them for years.

And I have a LiFePO4 pack that I'm balancing now that will go in my Promaster conversion so I'm not going to be some armchair expert.

I repeat my question: Why should we believe you and not others who make exactly the same kinds of anecdotal claims but with different conclusions? I am not saying you are wrong, I am just not convinced by anecdotal evidence, even "years" of it.

I don't want to "believe what I want", I want to know the truth. The only path to truth is science. I doubt that much actual science is available from any source except the engineers who designed the cells.

[gerrym51]

i read the first one as minimum 13.2(3.3) maximum of 16.8(4.2) above which is overcharging.

he also says 13.6 is almost exactly the same as 16.8. it in his paragraph that starts after the word commentary just under the top chart

[booster]

The most probable answer is that there multiple solutions that are either equal, or apply to slightly different conditions.

The manufacturers are giving specs that make the product look the best on paper, with their testing done in the lab, and hopefully some confirmation in the field. They don't always relate to the real world as well as they should, IMO.

Example would be the 14.8v Trojan recommends for their wet cell charging. It does appear to be the best if you have a charger that is super controlled and ends on current, and it does allow golf carts to get full overnight. Almost no RVs have that equipment. It is horrible to use that voltage with a timer based or non temp compensated charger.

Another would be the 4-5C charging rate that some AGMs tout. Charging at those rates could be very bad for them depending on the voltage and temp controls, so it is similar to the Trojan example in that you would need perfect control to do it, and almost no RVs have that.

That gets back to the article saying that lower voltage is good. Is it a compensation for other issues that happen on boats? maybe Is it that lithium can be equally maintained at lower and higher charge voltages, so it doesn't matter? maybe Did the manufacturer chose the higher voltage to be able to tout faster charge times? maybe

Until there are a lot more systems out there with various levels of charging setups, we really don't know what is best, or if there are multiple bests, based on application.

[gerrym51]

I have found out the Voltrek autostart system only for sprinters

[BobB]

Originally Posted by booster

The most probable answer is that there multiple solutions that are either equal, or apply to slightly different conditions.

The manufacturers are giving specs that make the product look the best on paper, with their testing done in the lab, and hopefully some confirmation in the field. They don't always relate to the real world as well as they should, IMO.

I am NOT a techie, but I can read a spec sheet and compare it another spec sheet. Have been thinking about changing out the Magnatek charger/converter in my EVC to a smart charger, upgrading battery. Plenty of info/recommendations on EVC forums by people who have done it, used it for awhile. Noticed that the smart charger specs differ from the battery charging specs. Contacted each manufacturer and response was basically "we have not tested our product with their product" and we stand behind our specs.

What was interesting with the article that markopolo posted link to was the author's emphasis on going with a company that sells and stands behind a complete system - MasterVolt and Victron is well regarded in the marine world, had not heard of Genasun (I have been sailing, mostly charter, for 10+ years).

So, while I may not like that RT (or Winnebago or Pleasureway or ?) has not (yet) explained their complete system in detail, they are giving me a 6 year limited warranty. I don't have the knowledge to put together my own DIY system, so I have to rely on the RV manufacturers doing it.

Just another viewpoint.

[booster]

BobB-

I don't think (hope) anybody was saying that buying a prepackaged system like Roadtrek is bad, just that folks should know what they are getting if they want to know. Most folks that aren't technically interested will simply read up on how past new stuff has worked from the company and go with that information. Certainly not bad, nor is going by reputation.

The Roadtrek 6 year warranty is a very nice feature when you are dealing in new systems. It will be interesting to see how many claims they have in the future, as especially AGMs systems can easily die in that time frame. Either way, you should be covered if there are no outs in the warranty. (Roadtrek would not replace the batteries in our 2 week old, bought new, 07 unit, because it had been on the lot longer than the battery warranty from Exide).

[wincrasher]

And I guess there is always this:

http://www.progressivedyn.com/lithiu...y_charger.html

what would these guys know about the subject, anyways?