RoadTrek's EcoTrek

[booster]

Originally Posted by BobB

Proprietary RT systems? RT is NOT Apple. Even so, people buy Apple products, tear them apart, and post all the details for everyone.

As to RT and proprietary battery and energy management systems, I would think that, soon, someone knowledgeable is going to buy one, take it apart and start figuring out what is in there and who makes it. Then, hopefully they post it for all of us.

I like the fact that RVFit asked Winnebago about the charger/converter they were using for the AGMs and they got an answer (make and model #). Companies that answer questions get my vote and my $. Answering the customer's questions and giving straight, honest answers is a competitive edge if no one else (or RT) is doing it.

I agree 100%.

My perpetual question it this:

"How many folks believe that the Roadtrek engineers know more about 12v (or higher for Tesla) power systems than the engineers at Outback, Magnum, and Tesla?"

If you can't answer that you believe they do know more, why in the world would you believe they came up with something so revolutionary that they need to hide it? That is what patents are for, so you can brag up what you have without losing it.

Great marketing, though!

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by booster

As far as your solar goes. If the Roadtrek setup has a BMS that shuts off at low temps, you will not charge on solar when it is cold. The solar won't have enough power to charge and heat, I think. The big thing is to not be like Davydd, and have to be on 110v power to heat the batteries. If Roadtrek makes the heat off of the engine, it is fine. Wendlund said no heaters, but I wonder about that. I have read that some folks have worked on low output pulse charging on cold lithiums to heat them up, but I don't know of anyone who is using that system.

Booster, Either you didn't read my numerous posts or you don't comprehend. Maybe I don't explain clearly but at least I give honest answers. I don't have to be on 110v power to heat the batteries unless you consider the heat coming off the inverter is on the 110v side and not the 12v side directly from the batteries. To be honest I don't know if I have 12v or 110v heating pads but I know where they are embedded and when they come on, and I know all the scenarios in how the system will behave if something does go wrong. It doesn't make any difference. To provide heat you have to have energy whether it comes from shore, sun or the engine (of which I have all three) but I am confident it is not going to come from the sun in the winter. Roadtrek does not have a miracle lithium battery system. Energy to keep batteries above freezing has to come from somewhere. Gerry's specific question was could you charge your batteries with solar if they are under 32F. The question was asked because if you let a B sit for any length of time unused and unattended the batteries will fall below freezing if sitting in below freezing temperatures. Since my last post I see Wendland still doesn't understand and so far they are giving a "Trust me I won't..." answer. Here are the last ones.

Mike Wendland Gerry. Seriously. What part of it works with no problems don't you understand? I said the solar was charging. That means they were active. And two to three weeks sitting means 14-21 days. It works. You don't have to worry about it. That's the whole point of this system.

Jim Hammill Never assume Gerry Millette that the power module we engineered will let battery cells be charged at the wrong temperature. We have built a unit that is immune to the cold

What does all that mean? That is obtuse once again and seemingly a refusal to answer a rather simple direct question. That's pretty dodgy and condescending to me. What is wrong in saying,

"No charging can occur if the temperature of the batteries fall below 32F."

Unless of course they can't say that.

BTW, the low output pulse charging is new to me. You would still have to have an energy source and I would think a rather sophisticated BMS to pull it off but I am not certain why? Simple heat the numerous ways I outlined in a previous message seems more logical for a B.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by classbbud

Gerry: Are you talking about the MightyKool WIN3? Thanks

yes-i tried it in the bsck and it did as i described between the 2 zion back beds.

however even though the thermometer said 79 between the seats next to floor level higher up it felt warmer to me.

I am going to try moving it to the front of the zion-using reflextix in all windows and using blanket wall to seal of back.

the secret of using the win3 in more humid climates is shrinking the space it is used in.

the cats and the win 3 will be almost directly under the fantastic vent to more directly pull up the humid air it gives off. i will see if that works better. i will post although i don;t think it will be hot enough-the great difference between the wet bulb and dry bulb temperature is key. a swamp cooler can make 100 to 80. however it will not make 80 to 60. it will make 80 to 78-just how they work-lol

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Booster, Either you didn't read my numerous posts or you don't comprehend. Maybe I don't explain clearly but at least I give honest answers. I don't have to be on 110v power to heat the batteries unless you consider the heat coming off the inverter is on the 110v side and not the 12v side directly from the batteries. To be honest I don't know if I have 12v or 110v heating pads but I know where they are embedded and when they come on, and I know all the scenarios in how the system will behave if something does go wrong. .

Davydd, you have stated repeatedly that you have 110v heaters that run off the inverter or shore power, many times.

You have also stated many times that if you have low batteries and cold shutoff the only option you have is to go somewhere warm or get shore power. Again, many times.

So just what part of this am I not understanding?

[wincrasher]

I thought Lipos would not accept a charge below 32 anyways? Protective circuitry or not.

Is that not true, or will they take a charge but will be damaged?

[booster]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I thought Lipos would not accept a charge below 32 anyways? Protective circuitry or not.

Is that not true, or will they take a charge but will be damaged?

My understanding is that if they see charge voltage at under freezing they would be damaged. I don't recall seeing if they actually are accepting charge or not during that process.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

My understanding is that if they see charge voltage at under freezing they would be damaged. I don't recall seeing if they actually are accepting charge or not during that process.

i seem to recall something called plating when charged under 32. destroys the battery

[Davydd]

Booster, You live close enough to me. Maybe you could drop by sometime and we can go over this stuff in detail. Heck, maybe it would help my non-technical mind.

[Davydd]

I'm going with what every source is saying from Battery University to Technomadia to Advanced RV to the sellers. Charging a frozen lithium battery will damage them. I am not sure if that is catastrophic or incremental damage shortening the life.

Drawing energy from a battery heats them up just like you smartphone gets hotter or your laptop warms your thighs while using it. But sooner or later you exhaust the energy or let them sit too long in the cold. You can draw energy from your batteries but you cannot recharge them when frozen without damage. So I would think once frozen you would need to apply heat externally to them. My external heat are heating pads embedded between the batteries powered from shore or engine directly or roundabout is inconsequential. It is external energy and the sun would never be enough. I doubt after sitting in 0F degrees you could draw enough from your batteries to heat them back up to 32F. My batteries when in use run about 10 degrees over ambient as a rule of thumb.

[gerrym51]

plating in lithium batteries explained

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...w_temperatures

[avanti]

I think the logistical issue of getting a battery warm enough to charge are being overstated. A small tank heater pad takes like 4-6 amps @12VDC. A decent solar setup could often handle that, even in the winter. Plus, it isn't that you need to keep the battery warm all winter. You just need to warm it up before you charge it. I doubt we are talking more than 10-15 ah. Under most scenarios, the battery itself probably could provide that much. In the worst case, a short drive (or idle) will get you there in a jiffy. Finally, if you are in a position to charge the battery (except maybe via a modest solar setup), you by definition have power available from somewhere. The regimen would be "heat then charge". I just don't see the concern.

[booster]

I can't say for certain, but I think what is getting the systems into "lockup" is if they are in low capacity and low temp at the same time. Since they are connected only to the engine generator, which probably needs a battery in the circuit to energize, they don't get any power made because the generator won't energize without a battery. That means no heat.

As I said before, that is why the "emergency heat" would have to come from the van alternator which will still be able to put out power.

It would be pretty easy to see how many watts it takes to raise 250# of lead from -20F to +32F based on thermal heat capacity. Then you would have to guess at efficiency.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

Since they are connected only to the engine generator, which probably needs a battery in the circuit to energize, they don't get any power made because the generator won't energize without a battery. That means no heat.

Hmmm... that direct-to-AC MEPS engine generator that Great West is using is looking better and better.

[gerrym51]

Jim Hammill has just said only roadtreks with large inverters already can get these batteries. he will not do retrofits that need large inverter and wiring. if you have the standard 750 watt inverter/charger it;s a no

[wincrasher]

Did anyone else pick up that Jim said they charge at 13.8 volts? Isn't that too low for LiPos?

[Nomad32]

This was posted by Jim Hammill on the Roadtreking Facebook group:

"Folks, on the EcoTrek side of things, I wanted to offer some commentary and perhaps a discussion start on the politics of business. Everybody will say, when they introduce a new product, we were the first to do this, or the first to do that. We do it too. Usually we are the first in Class B's, and usually companies copy the company that is succeeding to divide the market. Do you want the cost of Class B Motorhomes or small Motorhomes in general to drop? If you do, then support the companies that actually innovate. That actually do research. Buy their products. Don't buy the copies. I have said it before. Anybody can build a tin can full of boxes.

Anybody can take a 1950's level of technology and build something with a bed and running water. You don't want that though. Or at least the majority of you don't. You want an engineered to use product that gives you happiness, luxury and freedom. You don't want to have to sweat. Or listen to the machinegun fire while you run the AC. Or have to go out and run the unit for a hour each month under load. Or find the batteries dead all the time. You want to enjoy your time travelling and you won't do that if you aren't careful with your money.

So when you are buying Solar, does it work at the same time as the other charging sources? Ours does. Ask that question, because I guarantee it does not on other units. Is it a quality panel and quality charge controller? Make sure it is.

When buying lithium based batteries,,ask yourself this. Is it a lithium battery with a different companies battery management system on it? What does battery management system mean exactly? Can they explain what it means? Does it control battery temperature or does it stop the battery from working if temperature is to high or low? Does it control charging parameters and make it safe? Does it protect your cells from damage? How does it do that?
The answer to most of those questions is...simply put, they don't, because they are modules bought for race cars that have been tossed into an RV, by an owner or a tiny manufacturer.

We have designed and built with our own hands, tested in our own freezers and ovens,,then placed those units in the desert and in the mountains and in the -30 F temperatures and developed systems to make them immune to those effects.

And when you combine our solar, and our VoltTrek Autostart and our EcoTrek Power Modules, and the proprietary Etrek systems, and the specially designed inverters and chargers, these systems are optimized for your use. They are not just bolted and use the word solar or lithium in our marketing. We don't release them until they work. That's product development. That's engineering.

So when you read about all the reasons no one needs this newest technology, decide for yourself. People are proud of what they have. They should be. They defend it. They should. But people should open their minds and look at the details themselves. Don't rely on a competitor salesperson to tell you what is wrong with a Roadtrek. Lol. Make up your own mind."

[markopolo]

Good questions from Jim.

Is it a quality panel and quality charge controller?
Is it a lithium battery with a different companies battery management system on it?
What does battery management system mean exactly?
Can they explain what it means?
Does it control battery temperature or does it stop the battery from working if temperature is to high or low?
Does it control charging parameters and make it safe?
Does it protect your cells from damage?
How does it do that?

Has he answered them yet?

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Did anyone else pick up that Jim said they charge at 13.8 volts? Isn't that too low for LiPos?

.

i have the tppl agm on my zion-it;s closer to lithium than standard agm.

depending on the batteries state of charge when i run my engine generator

this is what happens.

if the battery is already fully charged it bounces between 13.4 and 13.8
if its partially discharged it bounces between 14.1 and 14.4

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Good questions from Jim.



Has he answered them yet?

he's implying that roadtrek does.



he won't. they did not really answer on e-trek and they won't answer on this.

however since e-treknology mostly works i will accept this.

we have been raving about the advantages of lithium batteries. But now that roadtrek has announced lithium batteries we doubt them-lol

the real complaint here is that roadtrek will not tell us exactly how they work

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

..........
if the battery is already fully charged it bounces between 13.4 and 13.8
if its partially discharged it bounces between 14.1 and 14.4

Have you checked the voltages when it is sunny out and when the engine is not running?