RoadTrek's EcoTrek

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Booster,

Hammill did state they a million and a half dollars in research and development cost in the EcoTrek. Early adopters will pay for that. After that it is supposition lithium ion batteries will come down significantly anytime soon and getting 30% efficiency in poduction still gives you a $17,000 upcharge over what current expectations are. Also, who is going to challenge Roadtrek to drive cost down? Winnebago, Airstream, Pleasure-way and Leisure Travel Vans have basically sat on the sidelines during the whole time Roadtrek has been promoting ETreks. Advanced RV has been doing their own thing but have also been on the record that 50 Class Bs a year was their near term goal. Great West Van might be willing to jump in too, but they are boutique yet as well and may be preoccupied with other stuff at this time.

deleted-because i thought better of my comment

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I think Mike has been dealing with a sick wife in the hospital, so that may explain his absence.

Good point. I wasn't too concerned about his input anyway but kind of found it strange in the way it was announced without the prepared input of the testers and then had Hammill backpedaling and pleading about pricing and contacting dealers.

[Belzar]

Hammill seems to get a bit giddy when announcing his new projects. The details are not yet available on their web site nor are their product manuals even developed so we can check out details. He must drive his marketing and sales folks crazy!

RT has had great success with the CS model, which is specifically designed for campers, and a high percentage of these are being ordered with e-trek. The ecotrek is the logical next step for customers looking for a boondock-ready vehicle. Pricey, for sure, but those shelling out for brand new etrek CS's or ARV's are not overly price sensitive consumers - we want our toys and will pay for them. It the same demographic as those who buy sailboats and cruisers.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

deleted-because i thought better of my comment

Gerry, Campskunk didn't address Advanced RV directly. However, I read the latest comments from both Campskunk and Wendland and neither answered you question directly did they? In fact Campskunk kind of talks down to you.

[wincrasher]

JH is funny. He throws out this info without really being ready to do so, then quickly gets exasperated with his customers after they barrage him with questions.

I guess it's just a salesman type of mentality. He wants excitement and adoration only.

[gerrym51]

Campskunk hates me. always has. says i'm an armchair engineer. whenever he really irritates i call him by his real first name and imply i will post his full name. leaves me alone for awhile-since i first started doing this he never puts my actual name in a post anymore-lol

[bobojay]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Campskunk hates me. always has. says i'm an armchair engineer. whenever he really irritates i call him by his real first name and imply i will post his full name. leaves me alone for awhile-since i first started doing this he never puts my actual name in a post anymore-lol

Love it Gerry. He talked down to me once about basic vehicle assembly and operations. (after my being heavily into and building cars & trucks since I was 15 yrs old, now 66). That did it for me....

[gerrym51]

this is strictly an opinion based on what i have read. roadtrek is buying lithium cells from china and building it's own lithium battery packs.

assuming a product is good what then makes it profitable. the answer is volume.



by building standard 200 amp battery packs then using multiples on vans
they can keep costs somewhat down and enhance their profit margin.

enabling rv dealers to do simple retrofits with these batteries will keep the volume for the batteries up.

i would think mostly recent roadtreks with engine generators already would be prime candidates for these'relativly simple' refits.

older models,onan models, probabably would have to be done at factory

[Jostalli]

This is a money maker for Roadtrek. $1.5M in R&D for the EchoTrek? Total BS. They are assembling the same Chinese cells anyone can procure. They are probably even private labeling someone else's BMS.

They have a 100-200% mark up on the pack alone. The rest of the equipment in the package will also have huge margins. Dealers will love it because they make huge profits off of the service hours required for installation.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Jostalli

This is a money maker for Roadtrek. $1.5M in R&D for the EchoTrek? Total BS. They are assembling the same Chinese cells anyone can procure. They are probably even private labeling someone else's BMS.

They have a 100-200% mark up on the pack alone. The rest of the equipment in the package will also have huge margins. Dealers will love it because they make huge profits off of the service hours required for installation.

Jostalli-of course they are an assembler of lithium parts. does not mean they have not spent to develop-something. will it be a money maker for them. i'm sure it will!. no way to know anything for sure-lol

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Everything else are common items that have been around for years plus a lot of labor. Labor that is never going to come down. The B market or even a whole RV market is not going to drive the cost of components down. I doubt efficiency in production with such low volumes (even Roadtrek) is going to drive costs down appreciably.

The comment I was replying to was your claim that lithium systems would not come down much. Your response seems to be about B-vans in general. I agree that the RV industry is insignificant, but lots of other people are interested in such technology. The prices will come down dramatically in coming years.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by avanti

The comment I was replying to was your claim that lithium systems would not come down much. Your response seems to be about B-vans in general. I agree that the RV industry is insignificant, but lots of other people are interested in such technology. The prices will come down dramatically in coming years.

I agree with Avanti.

In 2014, 356,000 new RVs were shipped. That includes all motorhomes and towables. Class A, B,C trailers, popups, truck campers, etc.

Most all have lights, stoves, fans. Many have fridges and AC. Probably almost all have some type of house battery. That's a lot of batteries, not counting all the existing ones out there that at some point in their life need replacement or their owners want to upgrade.

AGM's were new technology a few years ago and now are becoming quite standard and price competitive with flooded lead-acid batteries.

Yes, a few years more, but I don't think we are looking at decades.

[Davydd]

Am I reading here everyone thinks Roadtrek is taking advantage and gouging? I just took the price at face value that it is what they would have to charge to make a profit and if prices came down they won't come down dramatically. I am the only one that has commented so far with a lithium ion battery system (sorry oh masterful Campskunk, that is what they are) and a fair amount of knowledge about what goes into the system.

Should I for now on refer to them as LiFeP04s and tell you they won't catch fire and you can drive a stake through them? BTW, gerrym51 finally got his answer on freezing temperatures somewhat.

Mike Wendland I don't store the Roadtrek. It's driven all year round. But I have been unplugged for a week or two in sub zero weather. And when you drive it charges and solar is always charging. The Battery Management System does have heaters. I don't know what Advanced RV sells. But I doubt it's anywhere near as advanced a system as the Roadtrek. Couldn't resist. smile emoticon

Of course, he probably doesn't know what he is saying about heaters or understand the question and of course if he did it is proprietary I am sure. I think in that paragraph he officially declared he was not an independent journalist at all as he has claimed but definitely a shill for Roadtrek. Says he doesn't know what Advanced RV sells but has no doubt Roadtrek is more advanced? Give me a break. A real journalist would find out.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Am I reading here everyone thinks Roadtrek is taking advantage and gouging?.

It all depends on how you define gouging, I think. If you define it as giving folks something different than what they think they are getting, then it could be a maybe. If it is making a huge markup on something, then it is a probably. If it is giving folks nothing but promises, it is probably a no.

Roadtrek is a high margin builder, no way around that unless you get a year end big discount or a failing dealer discount. That doesn't make them criminal, and it also doesn't make them the best bang for buck. You are only overcharging if you can't get folks to buy your stuff. You are only undercharging if you can't afford to make the stuff for what you sell it.

My opinion is that you will not get top line components in most Roadtreks, but you will pay top line prices. My opinion also is that the proprietary stuff is mainly to stifle criticism of less than leading edge stuff. None of this means that the Roadtrek products aren't well suited for lots of people.

As far as Wendland saying he can charge batteries in the cold-I believe him. I have said often that there is no reason not to be able to charge when the engine is running-think 12v heating system off the Sprinter alternator. EASY.

I think Roadtrek is getting near the time that most turnaround companies sell off the company, so I would expect to see a lot of what the do focus on making the company look the best they can to a buyer, and sometimes that can look very odd to outside folks.

[wincrasher]

I suppose if you were going to sell an RV company, the time is now. Sales are hot, but I think we are reaching the peak of the curve or just climbing to the top.

Interest rates are about to inch up, which may put a damper on the whole segment.

But times are great right now with low $ fuel and some stability in the economy. Surely that is not going to last for long.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

It all depends on how you define gouging, I think. If you define it as giving folks something different than what they think they are getting, then it could be a maybe. If it is making a huge markup on something, then it is a probably. If it is giving folks nothing but promises, it is probably a no.

Roadtrek is a high margin builder, no way around that unless you get a year end big discount or a failing dealer discount. That doesn't make them criminal, and it also doesn't make them the best bang for buck. You are only overcharging if you can't get folks to buy your stuff. You are only undercharging if you can't afford to make the stuff for what you sell it.

My opinion is that you will not get top line components in most Roadtreks, but you will pay top line prices. My opinion also is that the proprietary stuff is mainly to stifle criticism of less than leading edge stuff. None of this means that the Roadtrek products aren't well suited for lots of people.

As far as Wendland saying he can charge batteries in the cold-I believe him. I have said often that there is no reason not to be able to charge when the engine is running-think 12v heating system off the Sprinter alternator. EASY.

I think Roadtrek is getting near the time that most turnaround companies sell off the company, so I would expect to see a lot of what the do focus on making the company look the best they can to a buyer, and sometimes that can look very odd to outside folks.

uh-Booster-roadtrek has been owned by an equity buyout firm for several years. could they sell it-of course-but roadtrek is part of a larger conglomerate-although the other parts are not rv's


my question was not if they could be charged in the cold. i know 12 volt heaters are used so they can be charged. my question is if the 12 volt heaters are not on because van is off but the solar panels on the roof are still giving current. are solar panels charging a lithium that is under 32 degrees ok. that was my actual question-it seems i got every answer except to the one i actually asked

[booster]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

uh-Booster-roadtrek has been owned by an equity buyout firm for several years. could they sell it-of course-but roadtrek is part of a larger conglomerate-although the other parts are not rv's


my question was not if they could be charged in the cold. i know 12 volt heaters are used so they can be charged. my question is if the 12 volt heaters are not on because van is off but the solar panels on the roof are still giving current. are solar panels charging a lithium that is under 32 degrees ok. that was my actual question-it seems i got every answer except to the one i actually asked

As I understand it, the company that bought out Roadtrek is a turnaround company that buys distressed companies, turns them to profitablility, and then sells to get their profit. I think they even mentioned a timeframe at one time, and he elapsed time is near at this point. It is an extremely common business practice. But, as I said, to get best price they will do some interesting things to make the company worth the most it can be to a buyer.

As far as your solar goes. If the Roadtrek setup has a BMS that shuts off at low temps, you will not charge on solar when it is cold. The solar won't have enough power to charge and heat, I think. The big thing is to not be like Davydd, and have to be on 110v power to heat the batteries. If Roadtrek makes the heat off of the engine, it is fine. Wendlund said no heaters, but I wonder about that. I have read that some folks have worked on low output pulse charging on cold lithiums to heat them up, but I don't know of anyone who is using that system.

[gerrym51]

I have no idea how or if the batteries are heated. my only concern was the van sitting in my storage site for 2 months in cold winter and getting solar panel charging. if they say no with certainty then i will get the battery.

my wife and i discussed this today. the zion is perfect as is for 2 people with no pets.

however i do have pets-2 cats-and want to be able to leave them. the swamp cooler device i rigged has kept a small area of the van slightly below 80 when almost 90 degrees outside. however even though it works it is still a hassle and a concern. i prefer to have air conditioner for a couple of hours

[BobB]

Proprietary RT systems? RT is NOT Apple. Even so, people buy Apple products, tear them apart, and post all the details for everyone.

As to RT and proprietary battery and energy management systems, I would think that, soon, someone knowledgeable is going to buy one, take it apart and start figuring out what is in there and who makes it. Then, hopefully they post it for all of us.

I like the fact that RVFit asked Winnebago about the charger/converter they were using for the AGMs and they got an answer (make and model #). Companies that answer questions get my vote and my $. Answering the customer's questions and giving straight, honest answers is a competitive edge if no one else (or RT) is doing it.

[classbbud]

Gerry: Are you talking about the MightyKool WIN3? Thanks