RoadTrek's EcoTrek

[markopolo]

It's good of them to even consider doing retrofits. We all know how much time and effort it takes to renovate or redo anything. Their business is to produce new Class B's and sell them through a dealer network. That has to remain #1 on the priority list.

A retrofit is potentially a lost sale of a brand new unit so keeping everyone happy, the dealers & previous Roadtrek purchasers won't be easy.

I'm not commenting on the technology and its value in this post because I don't yet know what exactly is being offered.

We all know this tech stuff continually gets better and usually more affordable.

[wincrasher]

You make a good point. It's hard to understand the motivation when you put it like that.

I think we are all assuming this is some kind of drop-in, prepackaged unit, akin to installing a generator. But I imagine the reality is it's a package of parts or modules, and the retrofit will be a big project, but do-able by a dealer.

[gerrym51]

the older the model the tougher and more expensive the retrofit. at some point the cost of the retrofit will exceed the value of the coach.

I expect my zion will easily be able to put on the eco400 package. the tppl agm battery it already has is closer to a lithium battery than standard agm.

engine generator and wiring already in.


however the ability to do retrofits by a dealer is questionable. if it's only the battery pack is one thing but more retrofitting than that i doubt.

[gerrym51]

Davydd- i have a question and your the only one i know with extensive lithium experience.

does sitting for a couple months unused in cold weather have an effect on these lithium batteries. not that your going to do this but say this winter in minnesota you just let your coach sit outside with nothing but the solar panels. do you think there would be issues

[wincrasher]

I think it depends on what you are asking Gerry.

Are you shutting it down completely, or do you expect to keep systems running?

If you were just going to store it - disconnecting the 12v and letting it sit - if the batteries had 1/2 charge, I'd think it would be OK all winter unattended. It won't charge below freezing, but it wouldn't need to. Of course you'd winterize your water systems too.

If you wanted to keep the systems running, that is another matter. The battery heaters would need to run to keep them warm enough to accept a charge. So you'd need to keep an eye on snow buildup on the solar panels. You'd probably set the auto-engine start on low voltage in case you got alot of snow and couldn't clear it. You may even run the espar unit to keep it warm inside. Both those things will require you to keep an eye on your diesel level.

So I'd say you could park it and check on it a few times a week, but it couldn't be left unattended.

[gerrym51]

Wincrasher- i was just wondering if lithium batteries were left sitting for a couple months with no loads and minimal solar(winter time) if lithium house batteries would be damaged because of the cold.

[rectalogic]

Looks like the EcoTrek 800 is a $24K option - that's the whole package including solar and engine generator.

http://americanrv.com/sites/american...iles/10324.pdf

Meanwhile 24M just came out of stealth the other day with their semisolid lithium manufacturing technology that should fundamentally change the cost structure of the Li-ion industry over the 2 years or so.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdet...gh-technology/

[gerrym51]

it looks to me like it will be about 3000 dollars for 200 amps

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Davydd- i have a question and your the only one i know with extensive lithium experience.

does sitting for a couple months unused in cold weather have an effect on these lithium batteries. not that your going to do this but say this winter in minnesota you just let your coach sit outside with nothing but the solar panels. do you think there would be issues

Lithium ion batteries if starting out fully charged will remain charged through a winter if there is no draw on them. They shouldn't discharge as fast as lead-acid from what I can tell but lead-acid can take a charge below freezing. To do so for winter storage you would have to totally disconnect lithium ion if you can't keep them above freezing. That would also mean then you could not put a charge to disconnected batteries with solar or by any other means and of course you would not want to do so if the batteries are below 32F.

So, to keep your batteries warm you would have to have a heating source and I doubt solar could keep up to heat lithium ion batteries through the winter. You will have an extremely low sun angle, short days and most likely a lot of overcast sky. Which is not ideal to rely on and most likely could not provide enough for heat regardless.

Advanced RV recommends leaving the B plugged into shore power for winter or long term storage. It can be 30A or 15A and disconnecting 12V things via circuit breakers to prevent them drawing power from the batteries. The shore power should then heat the heating pads they install to keep the batteries above freezing and thus chargeable. The ARV fail-safe if the heat source doesn't work and the batteries go below freezing is the batteries then automatically disconnect and cannot re-connect until warmed up again. That would be fix the heat source, a heated garage or space, external heat source, weather warms up or drive south with a dark coach. I like the last.

If no shore power such as unattended cold storage, disconnect the lithium ion house batteries so there is no power draw. There should be no harm to the batteries in cold weather as long as no charge is being put to them and as I mentioned should last through a winter storage period.

I will be plugged into a 30A shore power source this winter. I'm doing so right now as I keep everything connected, ready and on except the refrigerator. If I unplugged from shore power all those power demands probably would drain the batteries in 4 days or a week (with solar charging contribution) then Autogen would kick on. I still have not gotten the batteries discharged enough to see Autogen kick on. I've only done it manually. Sometime this summer I will mainly because I want to know in my own mind it works.

Roadtrek will most likely have a battery disconnect switch. They haven't mentioned yet how they would handle cold weather. But to put a charge to them the lithium ion batteries would have to stay above freezing.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by rectalogic

Looks like the EcoTrek 800 is a $24K option - that's the whole package including solar and engine generator.

http://americanrv.com/sites/american...iles/10324.pdf

Meanwhile 24M just came out of stealth the other day with their semisolid lithium manufacturing technology that should fundamentally change the cost structure of the Li-ion industry over the 2 years or so.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdet...gh-technology/

I think I have enough knowledge now to know lithium ion batteries have to be part of a whole system and there will be no cheap solutions to the total energy independence Jim Hammill espouses. Cheaper lithium ion technology cutting 50% of the cost of batteries would drop the total system cost down to what, maybe $21,000?

As for the Forbes article on 24M I think the last sentence is the giveaway. Of course technology historically gets better and cheaper but how long do you want to wait?

"24M will be worth watching in the [b]years to come[b]."

The discussion of this thread in my view is what Roadtrek is doing today and its effect on the Class B market. Heck, some companies are still too reluctant to even offer a second lead-acid battery option.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Wincrasher- i was just wondering if lithium batteries were left sitting for a couple months with no loads and minimal solar(winter time) if lithium house batteries would be damaged because of the cold.

Like I said, only if you tried to charge them when below freezing.

It looks as if you made a good choice going to the engine generator instead of Onan if Roadtrek does offer a retrofit.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Cheaper lithium ion technology cutting 50% of the cost of batteries would drop the total system cost down to what, maybe $21,000?

Yes, but the price of the other components will drop, too. Early entrants in a new market expect and receive a premium for their then-unique capabilities. But soon, the rapid-followers show up and prices of everything plummet.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

it looks to me like it will be about 3000 dollars for 200 amps

On FB, Hammill stated:

"Let's say EcoTrek 200 is 2.56 kW hrs. And it's 2490 bucks MSRP. Less than a dollar a Watt MSRP."


No sure what that includes, though. Probably not panels or under hood generator. I have not seen any prices on RT site yet, even if I choose to "build one"

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by avanti

Yes, but the price of the other components will drop, too. Early entrants in a new market expect and receive a premium for their then-unique capabilities. But soon, the rapid-followers show up and prices of everything plummet.

Everything else are common items that have been around for years plus a lot of labor. Labor that is never going to come down. The B market or even a whole RV market is not going to drive the cost of components down. I doubt efficiency in production with such low volumes (even Roadtrek) is going to drive costs down appreciably. The cost of Class B RVs have risen dramatically so much recently that there is not much of a track record of seeing costs drop other than a general belief that lithium ion batteries will come down in cost and as I pointed out is really just a small component of the overall cost. Still, since they all mostly come from China there may not a lot of wiggle room there, Tesla and 24M aside.

Of course the ecoTrek cost I would think would or could be balanced with the elimination of the AGM batteries, an Onan generator, and the entire propane system. Also, the ETreks already have some built in components such as the engine generator, inverter/charger and solar. So, the question, what is the $24,000 upcharge? What is it compared to?

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by BobB

On FB, Hammill stated:

"Let's say EcoTrek 200 is 2.56 kW hrs. And it's 2490 bucks MSRP. Less than a dollar a Watt MSRP."


No sure what that includes, though. Probably not panels or under hood generator. I have not seen any prices on RT site yet, even if I choose to "build one"

I think he is quoting the cost of batteries which sounds about right.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Like I said, only if you tried to charge them when below freezing.

It looks as if you made a good choice going to the engine generator instead of Onan if Roadtrek does offer a retrofit.

Davydd-if my solar panels try to charge the batteries and they are below freezing will thay damage them. since i expect to have this scenario every winter i am asking careful questions about this-i might not get them if this scenario has no good answer i am asking roadtrek

[booster]

I think the raise in B prices is mostly just because they have been able to do it, justifying with obscure improvements and high margin glitz. When Roadtrek 190s are over $108K and and 210s over $115K, the whole thing is out of control IMO. The same companies are making similar models, so they shouldn't have gotten less efficient. Winnebago has shown you can build less expensively, I think you could even say ARV is more efficient than Roadtrek when look at what you get for your money, at least at MSRP. If there is a 20+% discount like the Ecotrek 210 that was posted that changes, a bit though.

I think the lithium battery pricing is similar-they have it high because they can. Roadtrek is famous for high price stuff, especially newer options, that are often not totally top of the line (no name inverters for instance).

I think there is a business model for someone like Tesla, Magnum, Outback, to address the RV market with an integrated package of everything needed to have a complete, modern, lithium or other, system. Especially now that the batteries don't need access, and sidepods are gone pretty much, single box systems would be quite easy. Hook up 12v inputs, 110 inputs, 12 and 110v outputs, remote cat5 and be done.

Most folks would be surprised how much cost can be taken out of a manufacturing process. At most of the places I have worked at we were able to get to at least 30% reduction, without reducing wages or using lower quality parts. I think that is the major reason Winnebago has such a price advantage-they know what they are doing. I want to get to the new factory for a tour of the B production, as it usually very obvious if they are running near max efficiency, lowest manufacturing cost.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Davydd-if my solar panels try to charge the batteries and they are below freezing will thay damage them. since i expect to have this scenario every winter i am asking careful questions about this-i might not get them if this scenario has no good answer i am asking roadtrek

Yes, allowing solar to charge them when the batteries are below freezing will damage them. The answer is you disconnect all charging methods and thus would have to disconnect your batteries from supplying any power as well, or you keep your batteries above freezing. As I said earlier, I doubt solar could possibly provide the heat to keep batteries above freezing.

You have a good question to ask of Roadtrek. I hope they are forthcoming and don't pull the proprietary gig on you in this regard. So far, Hammill is more platitudes with little substance about the EcoTrek. In the first 100 messages or so on Roadtreking:the Group, the testers, Campskunk has been of little input and Mike Wendland has been absent.

[wincrasher]

I think Mike has been dealing with a sick wife in the hospital, so that may explain his absence.

[Davydd]

Booster,

Hammill did state they a million and a half dollars in research and development cost in the EcoTrek. Early adopters will pay for that. After that it is supposition lithium ion batteries will come down significantly anytime soon and getting 30% efficiency in poduction still gives you a $17,000 upcharge over what current expectations are. Also, who is going to challenge Roadtrek to drive cost down? Winnebago, Airstream, Pleasure-way and Leisure Travel Vans have basically sat on the sidelines during the whole time Roadtrek has been promoting ETreks. Advanced RV has been doing their own thing but have also been on the record that 50 Class Bs a year was their near term goal. Great West Van might be willing to jump in too, but they are boutique yet as well and may be preoccupied with other stuff at this time.