RoadTrek's EcoTrek

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by dknightd

Dragging up an old thread. Sorry.
My understanding is these etrek batteries use 60w when they are turned on.
Is this still true?

Originally Posted by BBQ

NO


The old ones did.

THey have updated the hardware/software.
The draw is much less now.

Originally Posted by Davydd

That's vague. What is the draw now?

If someone can pin down RT to commit to a number,
I can give it to you.


ps. I won't trust that number anyway LOL it is a moving target.

[Bud]

Gosh Darn, I 'feel' like picking up the phone and asking Roadtrek the 'draw', but I don't 'feel' that would be ethical since I'm not considering an ething.

Is the draw answer unknown at this time?

What was the last 'known' (sort of factual) draw?

Not sure, but it seems like all of the other ething draws are known?

Bud

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Bud

Gosh Darn, I 'feel' like picking up the phone and asking Roadtrek the 'draw', but I don't 'feel' that would be ethical since I'm not considering an ething.

Is the draw answer unknown at this time?

What was the last 'known' (sort of factual) draw?

Not sure, but it seems like all of the other ething draws are known?

Bud

the last factually known was 60 watts. I'm a doubter -i doubt it's really improved.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

I have the more recent version but there is no way to measure the draw with the system as provided because the multiple battery management systems makes it impractical to install a shunt driven meter that measures the overall state of charge and operational and parasitic amperage draw.

Not that hard to figure out the BMS power draw. Charge one of your ecotrek modules to full charge then with just that module online and the AGM disconnected and no loads and no solar charging, see how long it takes for the module to shutdown. Assuming it shuts down at 20% charge you divide the 160 AH used by the number of hours it was online to get the BMS draw in Amps.

Do this for each of you modules and see how consistent they are...

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Not that hard to figure out the BMS power draw. Charge one of your ecotrek modules to full charge then with just that module online and the AGM disconnected and no loads and no solar charging, see how long it takes for the module to shutdown. Assuming it shuts down at 20% charge you divide the 160 AH used by the number of hours it was online to get the BMS draw in Amps.

Do this for each of you modules and see how consistent they are...

Hey, you're jerking my chain aren't ya? I'm 82 years old and you're suggesting I spend my remaining precious time waiting and watching for some cockamamie blue indicator light to go out?

Seriously, if I could figure out some way of employing a timer device to detect the shutdown, I would do what you suggest.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Hey, you're jerking my chain aren't ya? I'm 82 years old and you're suggesting I spend my remaining precious time waiting and watching for some cockamamie blue indicator light to go out?

Seriously, if I could figure out some way of employing a timer device to detect the shutdown, I would do what you suggest.

Record the light on a video camera and see how long until it goes out or measure the output voltage on a data logging voltmeter.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Hey, you're jerking my chain aren't ya? I'm 82 years old and you're suggesting I spend my remaining precious time waiting and watching for some cockamamie blue indicator light to go out?

Seriously, if I could figure out some way of employing a timer device to detect the shutdown, I would do what you suggest.

What Greg does not take into account is that there's no way of really knowing what full charge is on an ecotrek. i doubt it's anywheres close to one hundred percent.

If i was 82 that would be the last thing i would be concerned about.

I can think of several things far more pleasurable to do.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

What Greg does not take into account is that there's no way of really knowing what full charge is on an ecotrek. i doubt it's anywheres close to one hundred percent.

With the ecotrek there are three charging sources - solar, alternator and shoreside. I doubt that the charging algorithms are identical.

Beyond that, there's an interesting point that deserves more attention than it gets. Even if the batteries are identical in their chemistry and condition, the charge and discharge values of multiple batteries in parallel can be affected by their cabling. Different cable gauges, cable lengths and the absence of a balancing network can result in different charging rates for each of the paralleled batteries and consequently may involve different time periods to effect a complete charge for all the batteries. Greg has pointed out correctly that if the charging sequence is long enough, the battery charge states will eventually equalize. Without multiple shunt driven metering, what's not clear is when you can assume that this ideal charging state has occurred.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

With the ecotrek there are three charging sources - solar, alternator and shoreside. I doubt that the charging algorithms are identical.

Beyond that, there's an interesting point that deserves more attention than it gets. Even if the batteries are identical in their chemistry and condition, the charge and discharge values of multiple batteries in parallel can be affected by their cabling. Different cable gauges, cable lengths and the absence of a balancing network can result in different charging rates for each of the paralleled batteries and consequently may involve different time periods to effect a complete charge for all the batteries. Greg has pointed out correctly that if the charging sequence is long enough, the battery charge states will eventually equalize. Without multiple shunt driven metering, what's not clear is when you can assume that this ideal charging state has occurred.

theres no way to know if full charge on ecotrek because roadtrek gives you no way to know. I'm convinced they do it on purpose

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

theres no way to know if full charge on ecotrek because roadtrek gives you no way to know. I'm convinced they do it on purpose

Agreed, but it's not necessarily a bad purpose. In a system that uses a single BMS, coherent and accurate metering (Trimetric et al) is easily accomplished. But Roadtrek's multiple independent BMS approach permits the operator to control which batteries on line which complicates metering. You could place the metering shunt on the common bus and it would provide accurate common voltage and amperage readings but the SOC readings would be wrong unless the meter was continually reset for an ah capacity for the number of batteries actually on line. I can see the potential for confusion.

They do a similar thing with their solar controller. It's not prominently displayed like you typically see in coaches solar equipped. It's buried in a cabinet. My guess is that since the solar controller is integrated into a hopefully coordinated multi-charging system, they want to avoid owners from messing with the controller parameters and potentially damaging batteries.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Agreed, but it's not necessarily a bad purpose. In a system that uses a single BMS, coherent and accurate metering (Trimetric et al) is easily accomplished. But Roadtrek's multiple independent BMS approach permits the operator to control which batteries on line which complicates metering. You could place the metering shunt on the common bus and it would provide accurate common voltage and amperage readings but the SOC readings would be wrong unless the meter was continually reset for an ah capacity for the number of batteries actually on line. I can see the potential for confusion.

They do a similar thing with their solar controller. It's not prominently displayed like you typically see in coaches solar equipped. It's buried in a cabinet. My guess is that since the solar controller is integrated into a hopefully coordinated multi-charging system, they want to avoid owners from messing with the controller parameters and potentially damaging batteries.

There is no real integration of the three charging sources and the Ecotrek battery modules and the AGM battery, everything operates independently. You can get a remote display for the solar controller which allows you to monitor operation but you are discouraged from changing the configuration of the solar controller.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

My guess is that since the solar controller is integrated into a hopefully coordinated multi-charging system, they want to avoid owners from messing with the controller parameters and potentially damaging batteries.

With all their "proprietary" electrical systems and the complexity of it all - even all the gurus on this forum cannot quite figure it out and some of you have RTs with these systems - it also seems to me that once you buy one of these, you will be beholden to RT forever for service.

Can you just replace their Lithium battery with another brand?
Can you reprogram the charging stages/voltages?
Do most dealers even know how to fix these systems or do you have to go back to the factory?

It is really going to be interesting when RT owners with these complex systems hit the end of their 6 year warranty and need service. Wonder what RT/dealers will charge?

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by BobB

With all their "proprietary" electrical systems and the complexity of it all - even all the gurus on this forum cannot quite figure it out and some of you have RTs with these systems - it also seems to me that once you buy one of these, you will be beholden to RT forever for service.

Can you just replace their Lithium battery with another brand?
Can you reprogram the charging stages/voltages?
Do most dealers even know how to fix these systems or do you have to go back to the factory?

It is really going to be interesting when RT owners with these complex systems hit the end of their 6 year warranty and need service. Wonder what RT/dealers will charge?

I'll put you in the maybe category-lol

the real problem is the gurus at Roadtrek can't figure it out.

[avanti]

My eyes kind of glaze over on discussions of these crazy-elaborate RT electrics, so I may be missing something, but...

It seems to me that if one could bring all the grounds from all these battery/BMS systems to a single point, one could use a straightforward shunt-based battery monitor to get a bottom-line SOC, and it wouldn't matter much what was going on amongst them. No?

[BobB]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

the real problem is the gurus at Roadtrek can't figure it out.

That is what worries me, which is probably why I would only buy a simpler system. Does RT supply all the manuals (and update them, too) and diagrams to guide you through all this?

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by BobB

That is what worries me, which is probably why I would only buy a simpler system. Does RT supply all the manuals (and update them, too) and diagrams to guide you through all this?

I have an AGM and the underhood generator-as they call it-which is just a high amp alternator. No different than any other van by anybody that uses an alternator to charge batterys. It works like its suppossed to.

Roadtreks issues is the ecotrek/BMS/voltstart.

Just when you think they should be past the issues someone comes up with the problems again in newer vans.

i actually think it's because outside factors and just a minor differential cause havoc. they all go out the same way but road shaking puts them slightly off

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

I have an AGM and the underhood generator-as they call it-which is just a high amp alternator. No different than any other van by anybody that uses an alternator to charge batterys. It works like its suppossed to.

Roadtreks issues is the ecotrek/BMS/voltstart.

Just when you think they should be past the issues someone comes up with the problems again in newer vans.

i actually think it's because outside factors and just a minor differential cause havoc. they all go out the same way but road shaking puts them slightly off

Even though they did alot of field testing, it was not enough to create a robust, uniform package. In my view, they would have been better served to only roll out this "system" in one size, and on one platform until if was perfected. Having it on 3 platforms, and a variety of sizes was just ill advised and not thoughfully considered. I think they thought PW was beating them to market with their very modest, simple system and their ego couldn't take it. Plus at the time, they were talking merger with Hymer, so I'm sure they wanted to make a big splash with their tech prowess.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Even though they did alot of field testing, it was not enough to create a robust, uniform package. In my view, they would have been better served to only roll out this "system" in one size, and on one platform until if was perfected. Having it on 3 platforms, and a variety of sizes was just ill advised and not thoughfully considered. I think they thought PW was beating them to market with their very modest, simple system and their ego couldn't take it. Plus at the time, they were talking merger with Hymer, so I'm sure they wanted to make a big splash with their tech prowess.

Did you delete my comment on your page by the way? what are you going to do with your Alegro

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Did you delete my comment on your page by the way? what are you going to do with your Alegro

Yes. It's really off-topic for my group. I told you to read all my posts on it on the blog.

My 600AH Lithionics battery ships on Wednesday. It will replace the 4 125AH Stark batteries I have in it now.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by avanti

My eyes kind of glaze over on discussions of these crazy-elaborate RT electrics, so I may be missing something, but...

It seems to me that if one could bring all the grounds from all these battery/BMS systems to a single point, one could use a straightforward shunt-based battery monitor to get a bottom-line SOC, and it wouldn't matter much what was going on amongst them. No?

Yes it certainly could be done by shunting from the common ground and actually there is shunt shifting technology that would permit installing the shunt on the plus side if that was more accessible. You would have accurate hands off voltage and amperage information displayed. The complication is that an accurate SOC reading depends upon setting your total ah capacity during meter setup. With a Roadtrek, if your battery profile was always the same, the SOC reading would be accurate. But each time you take some of the batteries off line or put batteries on line (which for better or worse is recommended by Roadrtrek) you would have to reset the ah capacity to maintain a coherent SOC reading which is certainly doable, but Murphy's law will guarantee the potential for a lot of confusion.

IMO, Roadtrek's failure to include the provision of coherent SOC metering is a serious shortcoming and as far as I know, there is no cost effective aftermarket bandage to fix it.