RoadTrek's EcoTrek

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Mumkin saying she will need to buy a Trimetric after market to read voltage? They putting this on idiot lights?

When it comes to this techie/battery stuff, I can assure you that woman Mumkin rarely knows what she is talking about...

She won't know until she gets the rig and sees what she has. I'm sure that if you are all nice, she will tell you when she finds out.

[Davydd]

Mumkin,

If you order a Roadtrek 170 EcoTrek are you saying they can't tell you what you are getting and how it will work until you get it?

What kind of battery and electrical information does a current Etrek give you direct from the factory?

[mumkin]

I know nothing about E-trek... my original order was for the basic 170 with solar, underhood generator, and 2 group 31 AGMs. Then when the new system came out, I decided to be a guinea pig and get the lowest level option 200 which mainly just switches the AGMs for their new lithium system. and I wanted the Voltrek as a back up protection for the dog. How will it work? Who knows? The dealers know less than I do... and I only know what I read on Facebook... Life is a gamble. I figure that the worst thing that can happen is that the system doesn't work and I can have my dealer put in a couple AGMs again.

I had a talk with the service manager at Lake Region today, and we will see what it comes with and if I need a TriMetric, I will install one. We're going to be learning it together.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by mumkin

I know nothing about E-trek... my original order was for the basic 170 with solar, underhood generator, and 2 group 31 AGMs. Then when the new system came out, I decided to be a guinea pig and get the lowest level option 200 which mainly just switches the AGMs for their new lithium system. and I wanted the Voltrek as a back up protection for the dog. How will it work? Who knows? The dealers know less than I do... and I only know what I read on Facebook... Life is a gamble. I figure that the worst thing that can happen is that the system doesn't work and I can have my dealer put in a couple AGMs again.

I had a talk with the service manager at Lake Region today, and we will see what it comes with and if I need a TriMetric, I will install one. We're going to be learning it together.

Mumkin- i have a question. does voltrek use the same low battery parameters as your inverter?

i'm going to use low numbers so no confusion in my question. if inverter goes into shut down at 7 and voltrek starts engine at a 5 the air conditioner for your dog will still be off. seems to me you want voltrek to start BEFORE inverter judges low voltage. they are 2 separate systems- i think

[markopolo]

Volttrek kicks in and starts the engine when the battery voltage gets down to 11.2 volts according to what is quoted in the first post of this topic. You'd have to set the inverter lower than that.

Tough part of the implementation is that not all devices have accurate or the same voltage readings when you get into decimal point ranges.

[markopolo]

Press release on RV Business today - Roadtrek Debuting EcoTrek Power Technolology - Roadtrek Debuting EcoTrek Power Technolology | RV Business

Class B builder Roadtrek Motorhomes Inc. has introduced the EcoTrek power module, utilizing lithium ion technology to lift the electrical system limits for Roadtrek owners.

According to a press release, ‘Roadtrek’s newest technology is a boondockers dream as it enables the RVer to become completely energy independent, providing 90% of available power before any voltage loss will occur. This cell protection system is optimized for all weather and electrical demand situations.


The module will charge and discharge at very high rates and be optimized through Roadtrek’s proprietary climate system. It charges from any available source due to the companies’ proprietary E-Trek charge control, which harmonizes the vehicle alternator, Onan, engine generator, solar and shore power as required.


There are many more advantages to the lithium cells included in the EcoTrek power module, such as weight savings, faster charging capabilities, increased life up to 3,000 cycles, increased safety and no production gases for a more environmentally friendly option.

“Roadtrek has a very complex and detailed R&D team that developed our new EcoTrek, and VoltTrek ground-breaking technologies using our in-house labs and working with external academic sources to do detailed validation testing.” stated Jim Hammill, president and CEO of Kitchener, Ontario-based Roadtrek. “Our focus is to make the use of the unit easier and let people go anywhere they want, without a cord.”


The EcoTrek power module is available in 200-, 400-, 800- and 1600-amp hours and can also be combined with their mass solar systems ranging from 200 to 600 watts depending on the size of the unit, and the proprietary VoltTrek system that gives an owner piece of mind. Roadtrek backs these items with a six-year warranty on parts, labor and manufacturing defects.
Contact Roadtrek sales at sales@roadtrek.com for more information.

The press release almost makes it seem like it is a product available for purchase by "Roadtrek owners" but I think it is actually only available if you buy a new Roadtrek.

[booster]

I continue to find it very, very, interesting that Roadtrek continues to call their stuff "proprietary" but you never, ever, hear of any patent or patent pending going on.

That would have to mean a use of existing technology, and not in a new, patentable, way.

[markopolo]

No mention of tandems.

The lithium batteries will do best when stored at less than a fully charged state. The AGM's will want the opposite of that.

The lithium's will do well with partial state of charge - PSOC - cycling. The AGM's won't do well with PSOC cycling.

I'd really like to know more about how they're doing it.

[Davydd]

Marko,

I think you are reading too much into those partial state of charge statements for lithium ion. What is a concern is total discharge and over charging can damage lithium ion batteries and I suspect if staying in a PSOC mode you could avoid those two extremes easier maybe with less sophisticated BMS. Besides it is asinine to limit lithium ion batteries to 50-60% SOC as one guy mentions. Tesla, for instance, is not worried about 10 year warranties and they are not advocates of PSOC.

Roadtrek does say they can go down to 10% SOC. ARV arbitrarily limits to 20%. When I showed my set up to Elite Power Solutions in Tempe, AZ, the supplier of my GBS batteries and controller, the CEO smiled and said at 20% I'd never have to worry. The lithium ion industry accepts 2000 cycles, Roadtrek said 3,000 cycles, ARV arrived at 5000 cycles after a year of testing. It really doesn't matter. 2000 cycles will surpass most anyone's use expectations.

On the high end I can real time observe all charging shutting down be it generator, solar, shore power are all three combined. It will float at 99%. In fact, as I mentioned, it would be nearly impossible to stay at a PSOC unless programmed to do so with the charging efficiencies I have.

There is nothing proprietary about Advanced RV's system. I have pretty much tracked down every piece. One thing I know is they chose everything they put in with the belief they were selecting the best they could find at the time. The other thing, that perhaps cannot be copied easily, is all the custom software integration to make everything work together. ARV stated they had a dozen outside partners in that effort.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Mumkin- i have a question. does voltrek use the same low battery parameters as your inverter?

i'm going to use low numbers so no confusion in my question. if inverter goes into shut down at 7 and voltrek starts engine at a 5 the air conditioner for your dog will still be off. seems to me you want voltrek to start BEFORE inverter judges low voltage. they are 2 separate systems- i think

As I said above somewhere, I am borderline clueless about this stuff. It sounds good, so hopefully it will work sort of like it is supposed to. I don't even know yet when the Voltrek will be available for the Chevy.

RT has decided no upgrades to the older RTs for the time being. (which is why I ordered now... not knowing when it will be available... they hope in a month or so) We first people will be the testers I guess.

Rather like Microsoft has always done with their software. We should all be used to this by now.

[markopolo]

Davydd - not sure if you noticed I was referring to "tandem" AGM and Lifepo4 combos in the pdf file from RT.

Combine with AGM with our Tandem system

The references to 50% or 60% SOC for storage conditions for lifepo4 batteries I've read are literally for storage such as when an RV or boat is stored from December through March unused for example. The theory or reasoning presented is the least amount of active material degradation occurs at that SOC voltage. There are two aging processes to consider, cycle aging and calendar aging so the idea is to reduce the calendar aging by storing the batteries in the most beneficial state thus minimizing degradation.

Cycling means using the battery. Use it then fully charge it is the best practice for lead acid batteries. It's not always practical or even doable but it is the ideal way to care for a lead acid battery.

PSOC cycling would be if the battery is in a partial state of charge and is cycled (used) then charged but not fully recharged. My understanding is that lifepo4 batteries show no ill effects being used and cared for in that way. That's one of their advantages over lead acid batteries.

There are a few lead acid batteries designed for PSOC cycling but most are not. Firefly lead acid batteries FAQ | Firefly International Energy are reported to not be negatively affected at all by PSOC cycling. Trojan Battery is doing something similar with a line of wet cell lead acid batteries: Smart Carbon | Trojan Battery Company

I'm curious to know how you can successfully mix lifepo4 and lead acid batteries given that their use and care characteristics are so different. It would be a nice DIY upgrade option particularly for RV use.

[booster]

Very interesting! I looked at the spec sheet on the T-105 Trojan version and it showed about 1700 cycles at 50% discharge and 1000 at 80%, which is nearly double the normal wet or AGM. However, they listed them in that spec as used in a stationery application, so I wonder how that compares to RV use?

[BBahk]

I was told by a sales person that RT started offering free 200 AH lithiumupgrade in units on dealer's lot. I asked if this lithium replaces the existing 4 AGM, but he said these two types of batteries would work together. I just received the following message from Roadtrek Customer Support:
"Yes we are running a special for free EcoTrek 200 for units in stock on dealer’s lots. These batteries will work in conjunction with the AGM batteries and will not pose a problem to one or the other. It is essentially a “bolt on” addition to the existing battery system on board the unit."
I wonder if these mixing Lithium batteries with 4 AGM batteries in RT RS would cause any problem after reading all the messages in this thread.
Thanks for any comments.

[markopolo]

It would be helpful to get the datasheet on the lifepo4 cells Roadtrek is using in their packs and the battery manual for the AGM's. You'd be able to check to see if manufacturer recommended charging voltages are the same for the two different types of batteries. You'd also be able to check the float voltage recommendation for the AGM batteries.

With that info you'd be able to ask Roadtrek for specifics as to how their setup meets both the AGM and the lithium charging requirements as set out by the different battery manufacturers.

The charging sources in the not yet ecotrek equipped Roadtreks are probably solar, alternator and inverter/charger. My guess is that are currently all set for AGM (lead acid) batteries.

I think Roadtrek could release the voltages etc. that the end user will see without revealing the specifics as to how they did it to keep that info in house.

I'll use Wincrashers newly purchased lithium specific battery charger as an example. It's has a single voltage output of 14.6volts. The lithium battery he bought charges at that voltage. You wouldn't be able to add AGM batteries with that charger as constantly charging most AGM's at 14.6 volts would result in an overcharging situation. Using a charger suited for AGM's with lithium batteries could end up with undercharged lithium batteries.

Being able to add on a lifepo4 battery module to an existing lead acid battery pack is a neat idea. I'd love to know a bit more about how they do it.

[eric1514]

I don't know why, but I suspect RT doesn't care if you don't see the life out of your AGMs like you thought you would. They're going to make money selling their "proprietary" system to as many folks as possible and that includes folks with AGMs. If you get 3 years out of your batteries because they were overcharged instead of say, 7 years, I don't think they care and I don't think they'll warranty your old batteries. Maybe I'm just being cynical.

Eric

[Arlo]

Yikes. Yeah that's being cynical. Not sure where this is coming from, but you need to take a deep cleansing breath and wait for this to play out a bit. For example, will RT apply the 6-year EcoTrek warranty to these units? I don't know the answer, but speculative attacks strike me as unwarranted at this point.

[wincrasher]

I'd agree we need more information. Maybe thier charge controllers already can deal with two different battery banks of a different type. Or maybe the lithium pack has it's own onboard charger.

[markopolo]

Good points.

BBahk - Do you know if the free Ecotrek 200 was only on E-trek's and E-trek package RV's?

The description of it being "essentially a “bolt on” addition to the existing battery system on board the unit." is encouraging for existing owners. At some point in the future retrofits might be back on the table.

[booster]

I do think this goes back to the proprietary thing again. We all can speculate, and either be cynical and say it can't work, or say trust Roadtrek they know what they are doing.

Based on that some will go for it, some will not--the future will determine who guessed right.

IMO, it would be so much better just to let folks know what they are getting, and let them decide, based on some actual information, rather than blind trust.

[BBahk]

Markopolo,
I was interested in RS, not RS Etrek. During the discussion of the sale price the sales rep provide this RT incentive. I asked him specifically if this Lithium 200AH upgrade will replace the existing 4 AGM batteries on RS. He said, NO. The same story was confirmed by RT customer support that the two battery system would work togther.