Roadtrek warranty change?

[gerrym51]

if the alternator is actually charging the battery or the battery is charged but the battery switch is loose Davydds suggestions sound correct. However it would seem to me that roadtrek would dispatch someone posthaste to avoid ecotrek questions.

if this was a 2 year old e-trek no one would bat an eye

[markopolo]

Hang in there Mumkin. Sorry to hear of the trouble. Roadtrek will fix it, I'm sure of that.

I appreciate you keeping us up-to-date, that takes some courage

[booster]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Obviously I didn't immediately stop posting everywhere I normally post because someone told me not to talk about it on their page. It would seem to me that once I mentioned it anywhere, it is to their benefit to show how efficiently they fix the problem, not publicly try to make me shut up.

As to heading to Lake Region, the manager of the service department is on leave this week (of course... so goes my life), so their tech is running the show... and also buried in work this week. They are 25 miles from me with a difficult route because of all the bleeping summer road construction.

But I expect that is the next step.

There just seems to be something very childish about banning folks because of things they say elsewhere, especially when they were not in any way nasty. In the long term, they may be able to keep their Facebook page sanitized, but the information will leak and be discussed other places. IMO, Roadtrek needs to realize there is a difference between BEING a quality responsive business, and APPEARING to be one.

You repeat just what I have been saying--Roadtrek took an opportunity to show how well they support their customers and turned it into very negative thing, but it is not the first, or probably, last time they will do that.

Hopefully, Dale will get into the middle of this a bit and get you a better response, once he gets staffed again.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by booster

You repeat just what I have been saying--Roadtrek took an opportunity to show how well they support their customers and turned it into very negative thing...

It makes me just shake my head...

Because here's the morning update from Jeff at the factory. They think they have found the issue ... software, of course ... but they are going to confirm it with a few more tests today. Then we will make an appointment with Lake Region and the plan is to fix it remotely. He is optimistic that this is it.

I haven't had to bother Dale with this yet. He has staff now. LOL I talked to the sales manager and he will give the tech a head's up that this will be coming in the next couple days. It shouldn't involve his doing much more than connecting it to... something... not sure how long the download will take. I must remember to ask Jeff about that when we confirm everything later today or tomorrow morning.

What had mystified me was that although the battery had shut down, why wouldn't it get 110 when plugged in. Therein likes the difference between an inverter system and a converter system. So, if the battery shuts down the system to protect itself from running too low, you lose all power. You guys probably already knew this, but being rather non-techy, it is a detail that might have affected my decision on whether to chose the old system that I mostly understood to try something new.

So far... so good...

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

There just seems to be something very childish about banning folks because of things they say elsewhere, especially when they were not in any way nasty. In the long term, they may be able to keep their Facebook page sanitized, but the information will leak and be discussed other places. IMO, Roadtrek needs to realize there is a difference between BEING a quality responsive business, and APPEARING to be one.

You repeat just what I have been saying--Roadtrek took an opportunity to show how well they support their customers and turned it into very negative thing, but it is not the first, or probably, last time they will do that.

Hopefully, Dale will get into the middle of this a bit and get you a better response, once he gets staffed again.

booster i repectfully disagree-gasp- Ecotrek is new-from roadtreks point of view ANY bad news about this new technology is bad. the fact that they would have to rush to fix something owned only a week is bad enough-but brand new technology thats requires fixing right away is bad. someone who wanted eotrek might now not or delay until they see more. what happened is Jim thouth the issue was something simple. it was not and they got behind the curve. he should have contacted mumkin directly-asked her to take down her post-and SEND SOMEONE from roadtrek out directly. if you look at it from this point of view it becomes unserstandable

[MyJourneys]

I used to manage online communities for a living, and the way Roadtrek is managing their online presence will ultimately hurt their business. (I'd bet it already has.) The way the CEO is so active on Social Media looks great at first, but it set a precedent and now he's "required" to respond to every question, criticism, etc., with objectivity and professionalism, regardless of whether the comments are positive or not, constructive or not. And the CEO doesn't post objectively or professionally. He needs to extricate himself from Social Media and let it function the way it was meant to function, and definitely positively hire a Social Media professional before posting even one more message anywhere.

[avanti]

Mumkin,
If possible, please try to find out exactly WHAT device is getting the software upgrade. This would provide insight into how the system is architected (oops! Now they probably won't tell you ).

I really have qualms about these highly-integrated, touch-screen-controlled systems in a B-van. And, it isn't a case of luddite-ism (I design such things for a living). But the convenience advantages are IMO marginal in a space as small as a B, and they create single points of failure and introduce a level of opaqueness between the user and the underlying systems that tend to produce the kind of "all or none" behaviors that we are seeing here. In my van, I went out of my way to provide direct control of each system via separate physical controls (mostly on a marine switch panel). So, for example, we have a clearly-labeled "INVERTER" switch that turns the inverter on/off with the flick of a single switch. Even SO is willing to do it! This approach has worked extremely well for us and I consider it both more usable and more robust than an integrated, menu-based approach.

The aggressive use of the SilverLeaf systems is one of the very few basic aspects of ARV's approach that I strongly dislike (and, ironically, one of the few that they say they would likely be unwilling to omit on customer request). DavyDD has reported that the SilverLeaf appears to be a "display only" device, but I wonder if that is really true. If it is, then there must be some other programmable system to perform such "if/then" functions as autostart on low-battery and other automation tasks. I have never seen such a system mentioned (and RoadTrek must have an analogous system, which is why I made the above request). Maybe all such functions are available using low-level interfaces (such as the Outback menus), but if so, they are deeply buried. I am not being critical--these tradeoffs are judgement calls and to a certain extent a matter of taste, but I personally am not convinced of the value proposition of the centralized-control approach.

N.B.: I am NOT arguing against automation--I would not, for example, what to be forced to monitor and protect a Li battery by hand. But, by my taste, direct control of modular systems is often a better choice than wrapping everything is a master controller.

[booster]

I agree with Avanti, at least for me. Total integration is a nice sounding technology, and pretty cool when it all works well. I have been involved in industrial stuff built that way for decades. The big problem with the systems is the same as their advantage, the total integration. An inconsequential item can fail, and bring down the entire system. When I was working, we once had an 8 million dollar piece of production equipment go down for 36 hours due to a sensor failure in a section of the machine that was not even used in our process or of any use for anything. Shop rate on that machine was over $1500 per hour, so that is a big revenue loss for no good reason.

Many of the integrated features seem to be available on the individual components you can use, as Avanti surmised. Things like auto generator start are available in Magnum inverter/chargers for instance. There are now some very nice individual components available that will allow flexible, no hassle or human involvement, systems, that also do a very good job.

If the solar, shore charger, and engine generator all work independently (as long as you make sure they play well together), you are much less likely to get stuck with no power while on the road, and the part replacement is easier in most cases.

I do think this may bring up a previously unmentioned (not realized) downside to the lithium batteries, as their protection system will bring down all your power if it fails. As far as I know, none of the charging systems will activate without a battery in the system, so if the BMS shuts off the battery connection, you are all done.

[booster]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

booster i repectfully disagree-gasp- Ecotrek is new-from roadtreks point of view ANY bad news about this new technology is bad. the fact that they would have to rush to fix something owned only a week is bad enough-but brand new technology thats requires fixing right away is bad. someone who wanted eotrek might now not or delay until they see more. what happened is Jim thouth the issue was something simple. it was not and they got behind the curve. he should have contacted mumkin directly-asked her to take down her post-and SEND SOMEONE from roadtrek out directly. if you look at it from this point of view it becomes unserstandable

I agree that is how Roadtrek is looking at it, what I don't think is right is that they are looking at it that way. I have been involved in dozens of new product rollouts over the years, and nearly all will have something go wrong. It often isn't the company or the product's fault and can be a bad application, abuse, or unreasonable customer. That, however, doesn't matter and you have to make it right very quickly, especially these days of social media. Trying to fix the issue over Facebook, with repeated failures, is about as bad of advertising as you could have. If what just now happened, some analysis, appointment for dealer, etc had happened in the first few hours, we would not be talking about anything. It would get promptly fixed, and if anyone did hear about it and asked Roadtrek, they could honestly explain the issue and how it got fixed promptly.

[Davydd]

Right there on the left is the Outback controls and menus and Espar controls just by lifting the cabinet door. That's the back of the Silverleaf in the door. If I had to go deeper you can see four screws to pull off the panel and everything else is there but no need to access. To the right of the breaker panel you see a round toggle switch. That arms the battery heater which will come on at 40 degrees. Below that is the standard battery disconnect toggle switch. To the right in that recessed area is a plug where Advanced RV can plug in and do computer diagnostics or load software. The battery Elite Power Solutions BMS is at the batteries and can be reached crawling under without a lift. The MPPT solar controllers are accessible but concealed with the Outback inverter inside cabinetry below the bed.



Behind that screwed in panel? No big secret. It was all on display on the board you could see at Advanced Fest.



The Silverleaf system is not new. Class B owners just haven't seen it because the only other RVs that have them are Class A RVs costing $500,000 and up so said the Silverleaf rep at Advanced Fest last May. This is not fly by night stuff. Advanced RV developed their systems working with I think they said 16 different vendors in partnership when they announced their system last year.

[gerrym51]

looks like the starship enterprise

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by mumkin

It makes me just shake my head...

Because here's the morning update from Jeff at the factory. They think they have found the issue ... software, of course ... but they are going to confirm it with a few more tests today. Then we will make an appointment with Lake Region and the plan is to fix it remotely. He is optimistic that this is it.

I haven't had to bother Dale with this yet. He has staff now. LOL I talked to the sales manager and he will give the tech a head's up that this will be coming in the next couple days. It shouldn't involve his doing much more than connecting it to... something... not sure how long the download will take. I must remember to ask Jeff about that when we confirm everything later today or tomorrow morning.

What had mystified me was that although the battery had shut down, why wouldn't it get 110 when plugged in. Therein likes the difference between an inverter system and a converter system. So, if the battery shuts down the system to protect itself from running too low, you lose all power. You guys probably already knew this, but being rather non-techy, it is a detail that might have affected my decision on whether to chose the old system that I mostly understood to try something new.

So far... so good...

Mumkin-all roadtrek converter/inverter/chargers over 2000 watts have to be on for plugged in 110 to work. it's always been this way since they went o inverter chargers over 750 watts. it's because they are all separate unit not separate pieces

however-the solar panel and engine generator will work on my zion even if inverter is off. 12 volt devices will also work. it seems that lithium batteries BMS locks out everything-at least thats what it appears

[avanti]

DavyDD,
You have shown that picture before, and I fully understand. Indeed, it would have been almost impossible to have put together the system any other way, since most of those controllers are necessary for the functioning of their respective subsystems, or at least to interfacing them with the outside world. And, again, I am not at all being critical. I also know and understand the SilverLeaf system in great detail, I never said nor implied that there is anything technically wrong with it.

But, all of this is totally beside the point. The question isn't whether or not SilverLeaf is good technology, it is whether or not it is a good idea in a B-van. As I stated clearly, I consider this largely a matter of taste.

None of what you have shown or explained answers such questions as where the "if/then" logic functions that are certainly present in your van are being executed. So (to pick one of many examples), where is the "engine auto start" logic being managed? Is it in the Outback "Mate"? Does the Outback's relay output directly control the input to the Directed autostart module or does the SilverLeaf intervene? There are about a hundred such questions. In many cases, the answers that ARV chose would involve tradeoffs among technical elegance, robustness, and user convenience. Different people will value these things differently. Honestly, I do not see how this very real design tradeoff needs to be viewed as confrontational.

Moreover, please do not lose track of my real point, which has to do with usability and robustness. Even stipulating that ARV took great care in keeping the systems separately controllable in the case of a Silverleaf failure (which I cannot judge given the information available so far), a real-life scenario involving a typical user facing a top-level system failure is (in my opinion) going to have a very hard time making much sense out of the deliberately-hidden second- and third-layer controls that they have probably never more than glanced at and each of which requires deep understanding and significant study to use in a limp-along situation. To my taste (and that is ALL I am claiming), exposing separate systems, each of which is presented to the user in as simple and understandable way as possible is a better design philosophy. Mike N. disagrees, which is fine. But, despite what some apparently believe, it is not irrational to disagree with him.

[gerrym51]

Davydd-

if your batteries have an issue-for whatever reason-does total shut down occur.

can your 12 volt devices still access the battery. will your alternator still charge battery>

you can say it's never happened and you haven't got a clue-lol

[Davydd]

gerrym51, If your batteries are disconnected they might as well be sitting on a bench in your garage. Disconnect means not hooked up in any way. Nothing reads them. There is no electricity to power any systems and shore power or alternator will not charge them. I don't know why the first thing they should have looked at was the battery disconnect switch. That seems to be what precipitated the problem.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

gerrym51, If your batteries are disconnected they might as well be sitting on a bench in your garage. Disconnect means not hooked up in any way. Nothing reads them. There is no electricity to power any systems and shore power or alternator will not charge them. I don't know why the first thing they should have looked at was the battery disconnect switch. That seems to be what precipitated the problem.

They are disconnected from the van, I wonder if that means completely, or are some of the monitoring systems still active. The battery disconnect in our Roadtrek doesn't unpower the charger, for instance, from the 12v.

With lithium, you have all these individual cell connections for voltage and temperature, cell balancing, and who knows what else. Do none of those take any power?

[gerrym51]

she could not turn on her battery disconnect switch. we theorized at the time that the battery had somehow drained. she tried running her engine generator(extra alternator) to charge it enough to turn on the battery switch.

that did not work.

she was then directed to plug in-since the inverter/charger would not turn on this seemed fruitless but did it any way.

she also ran her alternator(engine generator) for an hour-no effect.

on my zion i also have an inverter/charger. even if the inverter /charger won't go on and the battery switch won't go on i am able to charge from the engine generator(alternator).

we can still not figure out why the alternator would not charge the battery.

does a BMS lockout prevent charging from ALL sources

[avanti]

Assuming it takes power to diagnose and/or recover a shut-down battery, there are other reasonable possibilities for engineered-in recovery scenarios. Examples:
--Perhaps it was arranged for shore power to provide current to the control logic even if the battery was out of the loop.
--Perhaps there is a small lithium battery or ultracapacitor or equivalent to keep the recovery functions powered for a reasonable time.
--Perhaps there is a provision for using the chassis battery for recovery.
--Perhaps there is a bypass that temporarily defeats the safety features long enough to restore the system.

This is not an impossibly difficult problem (assuming it even actually exists, which has not been established), but it is one that needs to have been explicitly anticipated and addressed in the engineering of the system. The question is whether any of the current generation of lithium pioneers have done so, or will it take a few incidents like Mumkin's before the need is recognized.

[booster]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

does a BMS lockout prevent charging from ALL sources

That would certainly make sense. Why would one source of charging be OK when others aren't? The engine generator probably needs to see a battery in the system to activate and charge, so if the battery is locked out, it won't even try to charge.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

we can still not figure out why the alternator would not charge the battery.

does a BMS lockout prevent charging from ALL sources

...or, maybe the battery DID charge but there is no way to reset the BMS protection features.