Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

[mlts22]

I wouldn't be surprised at dealers inflating costs. One dealer in my neck of the woods would have their own "MSRP", and would "settle" for the manufacturer's MSRP...

[Davydd]

The CEO said $82,000 but he did not say MSRP. He might have spoken realistically as to what people would pay. And then again he may have been quoting a rock bottom base price of which no dealer would ever order to sell on spec. And I have never known anyone to buy a new B without succumbing to the options.

[Mike]

I think if I were interested in one, I'd look at the prices of the limited number of comparables, and decide if it's a reasonable number within the group. I do think most new class B vans are over priced, but that's just an opinion. Markopolo's point about the competitive price point of the ERA on the MB chassis is totally relevant based on those $95k numbers for a Promaster chassis based conversion.

[gerrym51]

Ok- this is the poop on the single 400 battery roadtek has on the zion. i got the e-mail yesterday confirming this and for all i know it could change. Roadtrek has said one thing to me one day and changed 2 days later.


before i start i have to tell you this is thin plate pure lead(tppl) agm battery. you cannot compare it to the standard agm's most of us know. until this week i did not know this technology existed. when i researched it there were dozens of articles both from makers and the boating/cruiser industry.seems this is their big thing until lithium ion are more available/cheaper/and easier to manage.

comparing a standard agm to the tpplagm is like comparing apples to oranges-it is not apples to apples.

tpplagm advantages-triple fast charging times over standard agm. ability to take all power input of an alternator or charger-standard agms are 25-40 percent-far better discharge rates-longer lasting-better temperature working. ability to go over 90 percent charge before needing float.

you do not have to take my word-research it. think of these as lithium lite-not quite as good as lithium but easier to use.


here is the battery- http://buy.northstarbattery.com/p/sms-a ... tery?pp=24


it;s the same one i posted at first. and as booster said the specs don't seem different than standard agm. however because of 3 times faster charging/deeper cycles allowed than standard agm this battery is marketed as giving the 'equivalent use' of a 400 ah standard AGM bank.

as i said knowing roadtrek this will change tomorrow but fo today this is it. before you say it can't be you have to reasearch tppl-thin plate pure lead technology then make an opinion.


this is agood primer


http://www.oceannavigator.com/January-F ... evolution/

[Davydd]

Doing the simple math, if this battery is 185 ah and can discharge 80% then would that be 148 ah of usable energy vs. a 400 ah regular AGMs 50% discharge of 200 ah usable? Saying 40% for standard AGMs (160 ah usable) is kind of changing the rules since everyone has been claiming 50% and even up to 80% for regular AGMs. Discharging more mainly affects the useful life. I know. I killed an AGM in one year. Recharging I thought was based on the amount of voltage a battery can take on a charge. I'd like to see the math on that 3 times faster charging. Assuming the re-charge rates are faster as they claim, what does that mean in real world use?

The general off the cuff look says it would perform equivalent to 300 ah of AGM batteries (150 ah vs. 148 ah useful). Space and weight wise the Northstar has an advantage mainly over two standard AGMs at 200 ah. Speaking of 12v batteries for clarity. On concept, it is not a bad battery and probably the way to go but Roadtrek has had a history over overstatement.

I have a question. Where do they install this battery? Also, could you install two? Two would give you a no-brainer, no-worry great boondocking system. One would put you on the cusp especially if you have a compressor refrigerator.

[gerrym51]

Davydd-read the primer i posted-most of your questions will be answered

and i have asked about buying a second battery. roadtrek has not decided if they will offer it. the occupant and cargo carrying weight is at 1250 pounds.

add in another 131 pounds and the solar panel option and your probably at less than 1000.

[booster]

I don't want to extend this too the absurd, but the Northstar lists LESS cycles at 80% discharge than a Lifeline. 400 vs 550.

I have also been searching for over 2 hours trying to find conformation of the 6xC charging rate for the Northstar batteries that was listed in the link article. Nowhere on the Northstar site, or Exide site, tells what the maximum charge rate is, at least that I can find. All they say is that they can charge faster than "conventional batteries". In some other Northstar AGM literature, that doesn't say if it is for pure lead, or not, says the charge rates should not exceed 5XI10. This is 5 times the amperage draw for the 10 hour AH rating, so 5 times would 1/2 the 10 hour AH rating in amps. I found several folks talking about the I10 rating as if it was 5 time AH capacity, which it is not, and may be some of the confusion. Most rate at the 20 hour rating and list as that rating time or divided by a number. In this case it would C/2 or CX.5

I also found what appears to be an older Nortstar document that gets into the actual charge rate allowed. It is obviously not current because they list 500+ cycles at 80% discharge, and all the current information says 400 cycles at 80%. They also talk about the batteries being smaller and lighter than regular AGMs, which they are not, at the same capacity. In this document they say you can charge at CX1 or basically the AH rating of the battery. This is still a far ways away from 6 times capacity listed in the article. Remember that Lifeline lists 2.5XC several places, so 1XC is not that special.

http://www.energy1batteries.com/Tech...+Batteries.pdf

I can't say in this case, as I don't know, but "review" articles are often paid for by the manufacturers and often have exaggerations that the manufacturers can't put in their official literature.

If there is someplace that has some specs I haven't found, I would love to see them, as I am always interested in new technology, and would really like better options. But, I am a data driven person and need some good information to know what is real.

[markopolo]

Interesting stuff Gerry.

The advantage with TPPL is high CAR (charge acceptance rate) and the high discharge rate.
The disadvantages are the high continuous load on the alternator when charging and the high cost of the battery. The battery in the link has 185.8 Ah Capacity at the 20 Hour Rate. Cost is around $4 per Ah!

Alternators do not fit the bill......
http://www.oceannavigator.com/January-F ... evolution/

To fully exploit their high CAR, we need powerful and efficient DC charging devices. Alternators, because of their high losses, do not fit the bill

.

Normal battery care still required......

Over the past several years I have collaborated in extensive destructive testing of TPPL batteries to try and discover a management program that will allow these batteries to be operated in a more-or-less permanent partial state of charge (i.e., to avoid the periodic “conditioning” cycle that conventional batteries need in order to avoid sulfation). We have failed to find a mechanism to do this.

TPPL AGM's still need to fully charged regularly. In an RV, you pretty much have to plug in to accomplish this. It take hours to "top off" the charge.

Don't burn up your alternator!

http://www.oceannavigator.com/January-F ... e=1#artanc

We knew that in any state of charge below even a moderately discharged state, the high charge acceptance rate of the TPPL batteries would drive the alternator to full output for an extended period of time. Even high output alternators rated for high temperature operation do not like this, and will potentially burn up, so we used the ‘belt load’ function in the Balmar regulator to limit the maximum alternator output to 80 percent (i.e., a nominal 96 amps).

The alternator needs to be carefully selected and you'd need to duplicate the regulator settings when replacing the alternator.

Cycles = battery lifespan

80% discharge shortens battery life. 400 cycles in the Northstar linked above if discharged 80%.

Here's a chart from Trojan for comparison: http://www.trojanbattery.com/products/deep-cycle-agm-2/

The Trojan AGM chart indicates approx 1,000 cycles if discharged 50% but only around 500 cycles in the battery if discharged 80%.

Roadtrek said 400Ah so maybe the 185.8 Ah battery in the link is not the one they'll use.

[gerrym51]

I'm telling you what i found out. i knew none of this before 5 days ago.

here is the creator of the technology-i think. it's not northstar

http://www.enersys.com/ODYSSEY_Batteries.aspx

using search terms -thin plate pure lead-tppl etc you find several different companies and independent articles from several people.

i am only telling you what i learned.

why do we like Lithium ion batteries-because they let you use more of their power and they recharge super fast,

why do some people like tppl agm- because they let you use more of their power and they really charge super fast-not as fast as lithium though.

as for the alternators burning out-wouldn't lithium cause the same thing


Booster roadtrek never said this was going to be the 1/2 e trek package. what they did say was that they were incorporating some elements of e-treknology. instread of thinking AGM think Lithium lite. don't compare to AGM in sense that it is AGM.

if you have a standard agm bank of 4oo amps and it charges at 25-40 percent of houtput you get say x. if you have a 200 amp bank of tppagm and can recharge it 3-4 times faster you could say in some ways the same x.

the zion is not being positioned to replace roadtreks higher end models or e-trek packages. if someone wants more total power and battery use the zion is not for them.


the travato by the way uses a group 31 105 amp hour battery. it has and onan generatore it is standard AGM


the zion has 185 amp tppl agm that recharges 3 times longer and it has the 'engine generator' a 280 amp alternator and a 220 amp alternator that comes with van. is this so hard to imagine in a van that has limited cargo capacity. this is not the e-trek


Jim Hammill has never said that this would be a 1/2 trek system. it has a converter charge not inverter charger. it has a 2000 watt inverter and the battery sytem it implies. without the engine and alternator running i see maybe an hour of air conditioning on battery. i do see the battery being re-charge in 30 minutes or less from engine alternator.



http://upgradeboats.com/upgrades-and-re ... batteries/



http://www.cruisingworld.com/how/replac ... work-first


Marko- i can only assume since Jim Hammill and roadtrek has far more exoerience with alternators than I that they know the issues with high amp charging. Maybe thats why it's only this size battery. an ternator charging this size might not ever get to overheating.

[markopolo]

Tech doc: http://www.northstarbattery.com/1.0.1.0 ... Manual.pdf

13v OCV would be fully charged.
There's a table in the pdf that shows the time needed to recharge following a 100% DOD cycle.

[gerrym51]

Marko- i think roadtreks saying 400 amps is in effect saying unique battery that in effect give 400 amp usage.

i doubt many people would have a clue about tppl agm versus regular agm.

this is as Davydd would say roadtrek make easy double speak.

if you described your product as 'high output alternator combined with excess battery capacity to power inverter to run 12o volt appliance peoples eye's glaze over. so you say 'engine generator'-people understand.

the only place on paper that the 400 amp was put on was to the dealers in a preliminary sheet.

I think when the actual spec sheets and info comes out it will be 'unique battery system equivelant to 400 amp system' or words to that effect.

the e-mail from roadtrek said 1 battery-i said it's only 187 amps thenasked if a second could be purchased. we'll see.

i looked at my e-mail again from steve at roadtrek Northstar sms agm 400. i find no other with that exact name

[markopolo]

Best to wait until RT publishes the specs on their website.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Best to wait until RT publishes the specs on their website.

this is the battery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUDr2CVYqgE

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Davydd-read the primer i posted-most of your questions will be answered

and i have asked about buying a second battery. roadtrek has not decided if they will offer it. the occupant and cargo carrying weight is at 1250 pounds.

add in another 131 pounds and the solar panel option and your probably at less than 1000.

Gerry,

Accepting the fact they charge much faster you could re-charge in less than 30 minutes or a short run into town for provisions or a drive around a national park or anything like that. My goal is to never need the engine and alternator running while parked to charge batteries. You could probably do the same so would never have to think of it as an Onan generator substitute.

[gerrym51]

Davydd-i have a question for you. In his research Marko brought out the possible problems with alternators burning out because of the tppl battery accepting such high charges. wouldn't a lithium battery also possibly have same issues-if it is an issue-the article that brought up alternator burnout was from 2011-alternators might be better now. why not asky mike nuemendorf-you will have 800 amps of lithium to keep charged.-just wondering

[markopolo]

actually, possible problems with alternators came from Gerry's links - I just quoted them on the forum

from Booster (offline):

The solution for the alternator destruction is to use a much larger alternator than you will charge at, and then use something like a Sterling 12v to 12v charger, which will current limit. The have them as big a 180 amps now, and said they are looking at going bigger still.

simple & smart

[markopolo]

Just adding some links and info to show that these TPPL batteries require specialized care. The system in my van does not provide the specified charging parameters. For example, on alternator, the voltage at the battery terminals in my rig will drop below 14v when the fridge is running. Float voltage in my system is 13.1v - 13.2v. Between 13.5V and 13.8V needed for TPPL in the specs. I'm not sure how you'd limit the 2.41 Volts/Cell to 4 hours. I can't provide the 14.7v absorption voltage - my charger outputs 14.4v max. If adding solar, you'd need the controller to provide the specified charging parameters.

from the link Booster provided ( http://www.energy1batteries.com/Tech%20 ... teries.pdf )

Northstar recommends a nominal absorption voltage of 14.70 VDC at 25° C (77° F) and a nominal absorption voltage of 14.46 VDC at 35° C (95° F).

Nominal Absorption Voltage = 14.70 VDC
Nominal Float Voltage = 13.50 VDC

from http://www.enersys-emea.com/reserve/pdf ... 1_0713.pdf

To get long life from the ODYSSEY battery, it is important that the battery is kept near full charge, approximately 12.8 volts.

A 12V trickle charger with no more than 2% nominal capacity output can also be left connected to the battery if it is kept in storage for extended periods or if the battery is subject to parasitic loads during storage. The trickle charge voltage measured at the battery terminals must be between 13.5V and 13.8V.

Trickle chargers that do not have a regulated trickle charge voltage between 13.5V and 13.8V (no lower than 13.5V and no higher than 13.8V) will cause early failure of the Battery. Use of such chargers with the Battery will also void the Battery’s warranty. For applications where an alternator is present, the alternator must deliver between 14.0V and 14.7V when measured at the Battery’s terminals. Alternators that do not have a regulated charge between 14.0V and 14.7V (no lower than 14.0V and no higher than 14.7V) will cause early failure of the Battery. Use of such alternators with the Battery will also void the Battery’s warranty.

from http://www.northstarbattery.com/1.0.1.0 ... -14-12.pdf

the time at 2.41 Volts/Cell) should always be limited to 4 hours, and then the rectifier voltage returned to the recommended float voltage.

Interesting tech. My guess is that we don't see these mentioned in RV forums much because a lot of the charging systems in RV's don't meet the requirements necessary for optimal care.

[gerrym51]

Marko-one thing i did not mention-and why i started this in the first place was because i got a dealer to send me a zion build sheet.

i didn't mention it because several things on it already changed-it was the preliminary one.

However in the van description at the beginning it clearly says 400 amp agm battery. so i queried roadtrek and was told it indeed was a single battery.

thats when i was told it was the Northstar sms-agm -400.


and as to the other thing-roadtrek is probably(i said probably) the most knowledgable van maker when it comes to big amp alternator systems.

the other thing is lithium is discussed a lot-but lithium batteries also have there own charging issues as far as voltage/cell balancing /charging etc.-i'm tossing out things i don't actually understand-lol

[Mike]

Wasn't this type of battery originally designed for marine use? Maybe their charging systems are more easily adjustable to handle the more specific charge/discharge requirements.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Mike

Wasn't this type of battery originally designed for marine use? Maybe their charging systems are more easily adjustable to handle the more specific charge/discharge requirements.

actually mike these were originally desighned for military use-our standard agm's were first designed for the military. Oddessey has been improving this technology for years.

then these systems migrate to boats and then to rv's.