Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

[booster]

Originally Posted by stanw909

Although everyone likes lots of storage; perhaps the name should be changed to " The Carlsbad " because it looks real cave like inside.

I think is going to be a very interesting thing to watch, and see how it is received. Over the past few years, the trend was very heavily to more open designs in the Sprinters, compared to older Chevy, Ford, Dodge designs which are much less open, and more "cave like". With the smaller size of the van compared to a Sprinter, and a full time bathroom, space gets pretty tight if you want any amount of storage. We will see what wins out, utility, or aesthetics.

The fact that the Roadtrek CS, which is not nearly as open as other versions, seems to be selling very well, may indicate a moderate return to less open, more use oriented, designs.

[gerrym51]

if anyone's interested the spare tire is an option item. however when i was told this i assumed it must be because something was in it's place under the van.

i was surprised when told if the tire was ordered it would go under the van in it's normal spot. so i thought WTF-then why remove it from the van in the first place-just add it to the price.

the reason is weight. the ccc is 1250 pounds. the tire/awning/solar panels are all options not included in ccc calculations. they are mostly going to be 'understood options. most will get them and suddenly the ccc will be under 1000 pounds.. .

this is really a 2 person van but it meets all my requiremensts and it will probably be what i order in 2015.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

I think is going to be a very interesting thing to watch, and see how it is received. Over the past few years, the trend was very heavily to more open designs in the Sprinters, compared to older Chevy, Ford, Dodge designs which are much less open, and more "cave like". With the smaller size of the van compared to a Sprinter, and a full time bathroom, space gets pretty tight if you want any amount of storage. We will see what wins out, utility, or aesthetics.

The fact that the Roadtrek CS, which is not nearly as open as other versions, seems to be selling very well, may indicate a moderate return to less open, more use oriented, designs.

i looked care fully at the videos and the picture-the back half of this van look's as wide open as any van i've ever seen.the extra 5 inches of width just make it seem open

[Davydd]

The metal to metal interior width of a Promaster to Sprinter is a 3" differential not 5". 74" to 71". The Transit is in-between those two. The finishing reduces those numbers a little bit. Also, converters treat window trim differently which can further reduce the width at window height.

To cross sleep in a van can be done if you are short enough. We tried it (I'm 5'-8") in our Great West Van out of curiosity and didn't like it. The climb over factor is a major pain. You can do a three sided clearance in some small Class Cs in order to sleep cross wise but with the extra 3" of the Promaster I doubt it will ever be popular as a design choice in needing to be wall to wall. You can pick up an extra 1=1/2" in twin bed designs as evidenced by that Travato 59K design. But for full beds even the Sprinters are already wider than queen size beds so really doesn't add much.

The smartest move Roadtrek did with the Zion was put the bathroom and all tall cabinets on driver's side. With a clean slate as Jim Hammill mentioned, they wised up. With most Roadtrek models the bathrooms have always been too narrow compared to other Class B converters with bathrooms on the driver's side. It is really pretty simple. Tall cabinets that house refrigerators, microwaves, hanging closets, the 6 gal. Suburban heater, etc. need about 24" deep. A bathroom needs to be at least 24" deeper and preferably more (Pleasure-way, GWVan and Advanced RV go deeper I know). With the typical kitchen sinks and propane two burner stoves you can have a kitchen counter as little as 14" deep or preferably 16". So, if you mix and match tall on both sides or deepen a kitchen galley for an under counter refrigerator you have 70" minus 24" + 24" = 22" for your widest aisle. Airstream Interstates cut down to a squeeze of 19". That is too constraining. But if you put all the tall on one side you have 70" minus 24" + 16" = 30". The finish numbers can vary by converter but you get the point. You have a wide aisle two people can pass by each other and a very open side. The open side is preferable to face your campground on the passenger side rather than your neighbor's.

One other interesting note. The refrigerator on the Zion is a nice size and unlike other Roadtrek models is not smack down on the floor where you practically have to stoop or get down on your hands and knees to get things. Even that ample CS Adventurous refrigerator is tight to the floor and the less used freezer is more convenient. As for the under counter microwave it would be nicer if they went to one of those pull out load types that are getting popular in kitchens. I don't get as upset about a generally little used microwave as I do a frequently used refrigerator.

[gerrym51]

sportsmobile says promaster 73 sprinter 69. obviously i have forgotten how to subtract. it's 3-4 inches wider-seems like a chasm.


if you look at Zion video the microwave is at the top of the van over the stove area.

[Davydd]

Gerry, Sportsmobile is wrong. What can I say. I gave you the raw metal to metal numbers of 3" difference. How each converter finishes off the inside or how they interpret their dimensions can be something else. But you said 5" not 3-4". The point is 3" it is and it will not make any material difference other than what I mentioned - wider twin beds and wider aisles.

My head is spinning looking at all the new Promaster models. Have to be careful keeping them straight. If the microwave is up high where it belongs then kudos again to Roadtrek.

[booster]

In the aisle example, that 3-4" is going to mean a lot more than in the crosswise bed situation.

Point of reference would be 8" of aisle (30-22") used for storage would be give you near 40 cubic feet of extra storage. (8x72x120"/172. That's the equivalent of having a one foot storage area behind the rear seat, floor to ceiling and is pretty significant, I think. Again openness vs storage.

[gerrym51]

Davydd-how about we compromise. the promaster is wider period. it gives at least a couple of inches more still seems like a chasm to me

[wincrasher]

Cave-like is more a personal perception. To me, a few inches make a tremendous difference. I think that is partly why the chose the white cabinetry- to give a perception of space. I don't care for the black upholstery, but I'm sure they did that to match the front seats, which can't be re-covered because of the air bags. I am dismayed at the total weight still. I just don't see why it's so much heavier than Travato, considering there is less hardware.

Interesting on the spare though. Is it a full size? Or a donut? Maybe the batteries are under the rear sofas and not underneath?


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[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

In the aisle example, that 3-4" is going to mean a lot more than in the crosswise bed situation.

Point of reference would be 8" of aisle (30-22") used for storage would be give you near 40 cubic feet of extra storage. (8x72x120"/172. That's the equivalent of having a one foot storage area behind the rear seat, floor to ceiling and is pretty significant, I think. Again openness vs storage.

Booster-your the numbers man

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Davydd-how about we compromise. the promaster is wider period. it gives at least a couple of inches more still seems like a chasm to me

No! a few inches more.

OK, OK, my definition of a couple is 2 and a few is 3, maybe more.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Cave-like is more a personal perception. To me, a few inches make a tremendous difference. I think that is partly why the chose the white cabinetry- to give a perception of space. I don't care for the black upholstery, but I'm sure they did that to match the front seats, which can't be re-covered because of the air bags. I am dismayed at the total weight still. I just don't see why it's so much heavier than Travato, considering there is less hardware.

Interesting on the spare though. Is it a full size? Or a donut? Maybe the batteries are under the rear sofas and not underneath?


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wincrasher-on your travato the onan takes up the spare space. the roadtrek tire is the original they remove from the van then put back-they did the same thing (sort of) with the ranger-if you wanted the onan the tire had to go on the continental tire carrier. in this case though it is so they can call it an option and not subtract it's weight from the little ccc they have.

[wincrasher]

I understand that. That leads one to believe there is no equipment or piping behind the rear axle, unless there is a battery box there. So by inference, the black, fresh and grey tanks are ahead. Not sure if the fresh tank is above the floor, but assume it is.


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[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I understand that. That leads one to believe there is no equipment or piping behind the rear axle, unless there is a battery box there. So by inference, the black, fresh and grey tanks are ahead. Not sure if the fresh tank is above the floor, but assume it is.


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i assume the black and gray tank under van.most roadtrek modlels have freshwater under also. 2 have dual tanks 1 in van 1 under floor for total fresh and freez zing weather use. since we don't have specifics on zion yet i don't know.

maybe you will be able to get onan-however roadtrek does not let you have both systems on any other model

wincrasher- i researched this and found an old post from you with a picture of your sticker. your sticker is OCCC

the 2020 pounds you had was OCCC. if you subtract the 5 times 154 from yours you ALSO have a ccc of 1250 pounds i'm not sure how these things are figured

[wincrasher]

OK. I was thinking they were talking OCCC with the 1250 number. If there is another 770 lbs available (passenger weight), then I'm alot more comfortable with this van.

Since there really aren't any options on Travato, these numbers are close to real. If you have to consider options weights, then alot more difficult to figure where you'll be as delivered.

My travelin' weight is around 7600lbs, so I still have useable cargo capacity.

[gerrym51]

hey wincrasher-you know i have found no official listings for weight.

however Mike Wendlend on his blog site did list occupant and cargo carrying capacity as 1250. however i have often found that mike get's thing confused when it come to technical rv stuff. i think he meant ccc however when i found out for sure i will post here.

[wincrasher]

Understood.

In most of my investigations on Promaster/Ducato conversions in the US and Europe, the weight of the conversion generally is around 2000 lbs +/-. The bare van is in the ballpark of 5200-5400 lbs. So generally speaking, the expectation is a finished van will be 7000-7400 lbs depending on equipment.

It kinda amazes me that everyone is still using fairly heavy veneered/laminated plywood up to 1/2" thickness for cabinetry. I would think that if you were going into a lighter weight vehicle like this, you'd want to get a bit creative on material selection. Either thinner plywoods or composites to save a ton of weight. PVC comes to mind - I've bought plenty of boards for projects and the handling is the same as woodworking, but it's 1/3 the weight. I especially like the cabinets in the new Winnebago Brave - aluminum structure with hardwood & glass doors. It's really sharp looking, extremely strong, yet very lightweight.

[bobojay]

Since the ProMaster diesel is now available, I wonder if RT is going to offer it as an option? Winnebago announced today that they were going to offer it in the Travato & Viva/Trend models...
This unit will be a winner for RT I'm sure....

[gerrym51]

wincrasher for you

the promaster spare tire being lowered from back

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3pNPHZjY1k

[gerrym51]

wincrasher for you

the promaster spare tire being lowered from back

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3pNPHZjY1k