Roadtrek, idling, and engine generation...

[Davydd]

gerrym51,

It very well may be a mileage thing but that probably would occur long after a gasoline engine had seen its better days. I think you are just obsessing over something to justify your personal decisions of RV choice. I asked where any Sprinter Class B RV owner has brought this up as a problem. Wendland and I both have quite a few miles on our Sprinters. Hammill responded to uninformed willie ninny worry wort commenters it seems to me. They seem to get pretty frustrated in that Roadtreking:The Group.

[booster]

Call me a willy nilly worrier, but I think I would much prefer to get an answer to a valid question, that MB says can be a problem, BEFORE I plunked down my money for a Sprinter, not after.

I would say that the fact there are few Sprinters owners on this thread would mean you have cautious possible future owners, and that would be expected. It is too late for the folks that already have a Sprinter.

[Davydd]

I believe you got your willy nilly question answered from the top. I doubt Hammill would back a Chevy up to a million miles for anything.

[markopolo]

Lets keep the topic on track and informative. No derailing it by misdirection intentional or otherwise. Humor sometimes doesn't come through in written comments.

The DPF discussion only got started here with the E-Trek topic. It had been discussed long before on other forums.

Link: http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...p=12750#p12750

I still think this applies: http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...t=2345&p=13394 That email was from someone with a title of Department Manager, Sprinter Engineering Support. I have no reason to not believe it.

It ties in with the Sprinter Operating Manual notes: http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...tart=11#p24022

[Boxster1971]

The MB Sprinter DPF has a 5yr/100k mi warranty or in many states the California long term 7yr warranty applies. DPF is not limited to Sprinters. All diesels have them since 2007 as required by the EPA.


- - Mike
2013 Airstream Interstate from 2012 Sprinter 3500 tall & long

[gerrym51]

Davydd-Davydd-Davydd.

the DPF issue has been going on since 2007(2006) in europe. it keeps hanging on because it keeps happening. what you should be ask is how many 2007 past sprinter b owners are past 125,000 thousand miles. you poo poo the issue but you have not been past 100,000,miles a sprinter dpf.

i think there are not that many either.

Jim hammill has not taken it upon himself to warranty gasoline catalytic converters. why-because it practically never happens

Boxster- dpf has a 5 yr /100,000 warranty for DEFECTS-it's warranty is not for premature filling up because of unwarranted idling

[booster]

It will be interesting to see what Ford and Chrysler say about the diesels and idling, once they get them out and delivered. We have to assume they will have similar concerns, as the technology is the same. The engine generators definitely can confuse the whole situation of idling, when compared to generator equipped B's.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

It will be interesting to see what Ford and Chrysler say about the diesels and idling, once they get them out and delivered. We have to assume they will have similar concerns, as the technology is the same. The engine generators definitely can confuse the whole situation of idling, when compared to generator equipped B's.

booster -you don't have to wait-just go to any ford,ram,chevy forums that talk about diesel pick-ups.

the dpf issue is an issue to all of them. most hate them because they get worse mileage. many also have dpf issues. this has been going on since 2007. the chevy duramax diesel forums post 2007 have been particularly viscious.

[booster]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

booster -you don't have to wait-just go to any ford,ram,chevy forums that talk about diesel pick-ups.

the dpf issue is an issue to all of them. most hate them because they get worse mileage. many also have dpf issues. this has been going on since 2007. the chevy duramax diesel forums post 2007 have been particularly viscious.

I had gone to the Chevy van site to see what they said about warranty for such items. Not surprisingly, I think you would need to have a law degree to understand what they actually said, and another degree to figure out what they mean.

I had heard from folks that had the pickups about problems, but I don't know lots of diesel pickup owners so it is hard to judge. The Promaster is going to have a GM/Fiat diesel designed in Europe, so I have no idea if that will be better or worse. Don't know about the Ford.

This it totally off topic, but I just recalled it. When we were on our last trip, which covered the eastern half of the country, we saw lots of the old standard UPS box trucks. In the past, at least at home, those trucks were always diesel, but almost all we noticed were gas engines. Very, very, surprised at that. UPS is famous for data collection and cost optimization, so maybe the dynamics of it all has changed. I wonder what they do about DPF, as they do their own maintenance
AFAIK.

[rtz]

There needs to be a way to manually run the DPF regeneration.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by rtz

There needs to be a way to manually run the DPF regeneration.

ask mister sprinter



http://kcsprinter.wordpress.com/2014/01 ... eneration/

[markopolo]

There are lots of items that wear out on our vans. Tires, brakes, ball joints, shocks, sway bar bushings, steering linkages, belts, alternators, batteries, etc. etc.

The main reason the DPF became so widely discussed was probably the replacement cost. If cleaning is a good option and not too expensive then it'll eventually just be discussed as another maintenance item.

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

There are lots of items that wear out on our vans. Tires, brakes, ball joints, shocks, sway bar bushings, steering linkages, belts, alternators, batteries, etc. etc.

The main reason the DPF became so widely discussed was probably the replacement cost. If cleaning is a good option and not too expensive then it'll eventually just be discussed as another maintenance item.

I agree. In the early days of cars with engine control computers, you heard the same discussions because of early and frequent failures plus the cost of replacement. Chrysler had engine "lean burn" control computers on the early Plymouth Horizons that had so much trouble they want back to a standard system for a year or two while they got it fixed. Now days, no one thinks about the possibility of a vehicle that isn't computer controlled, and there are rebuilt units available to keep the costs down. I think the same will happen DPF, be it cleaning, cheaper aftermarket suppliers, new designs.

[markopolo]

It would be nice to see the discussion about the DPF shift from fear and worry to education and smart practices. There are instructions and notes in the Mercedes Benz Sprinter Operators and Maintenance manuals re: the DPF (diesel particulate filter) or diesel particle filter. I noticed it is referred to as the diesel particle filter in some docs.

2015 Mercedes Benz Sprinter Operators Manual
http://www.mbsprinterusa.com/files/manu ... Manual.pdf

Page 211

Display messages: Exhaust Filter: Drive at high engine speed. See Oper. Manual

Possible causes/consequences and Solutions

The automatic regeneration of the diesel particle filter is not sufficient or has malfunctioned. Drive at an engine speed of above 2000 rpm until the display message disappears. If the display message does not go out after approximately 20 minutes, have the malfunction rectified immediately at a qualified specialist workshop.

Page 153

Short journey

! If the vehicle is predominantly used for short-distance driving or is stationary for long periods, this could lead to a malfunction in the automatic cleaning function for the diesel particle filter. This can lead to blockage of the diesel particle filter. This can also result in fuel collecting in the engine oil and cause engine failure.

Therefore, if you mainly drive short distances, drive on a highway or an inter-urban road for 20 minutes every 300 miles (500 km). This facilitates the diesel particle filter's burn-off process.

Page 322

The use of other, non-approved engine oils for diesel engines can cause damage to the diesel particle filter (DPF).

Page 324

Information about oil consumption

! If the vehicle is predominantly used for short-distance driving, this could lead to a malfunction in the automatic cleaning function for the diesel particle filter. As a result, fuel may accumulate in the engine oil and cause engine failure.

Therefore, if you mainly drive short distances, you should drive on a highway or on rural roads for 20 minutes every 310 miles (500 km). This ensures sufficient regeneration of the diesel particle filter.

2014 Mercedes Benz Sprinter Maintenance Manual
http://www.mbsprinterusa.com/files/manu ... Manual.pdf

Page 8

Checking the diesel particle filter

The saturation level of the diesel particle filter must first be checked at 90,000 miles.

If the saturation level is still below the threshold value at 90,000 miles, the saturation level of the diesel particle filter must be checked
again at each subsequent oil service plus/ maintenance service.

If the level of the diesel particle filter is above the limit value, the diesel particle filter should be replaced.

Once the new diesel particle filter has been installed, the checking cycle starts again after 90,000 miles.

Idling would be more like "short-distance driving" than normal driving. I'd think of it as "extreme short-distance driving" because you are unlikely to get the engine RPM's as high as you would in "short-distance driving". The Page 153 notes above include "stationary for long periods" with "short-distance driving". "stationary for long periods" must mean idling.

Some commercial van drivers might be combining short-distance driving and extended idling. That would accelerate the risk of DPF problems.

If you need to idle the van then maybe the goal should be to exceed the "short-distance driving" instructions in the manual.

Think of it as an excuse to hit the road and discover another new place.

[booster]

One thing that certainly would help, and maybe some vehicles have it (like the ones where you can do a manual regeneration), would be some kind of indicator like the oil life monitor, that would tell you when you need to get on the highway to force a regeneration. Even better if it warned a bit ahead, so you could plan for it.

The low speed and idle rules have to be very tough for a city UPS or Fedex truck of any brand diesel. In Minneapolis the UPS distribution center is in the heart of town, and I would bet many of the delivery trucks never see a highway for more than a couple of minutes most days, as they are always on city streets, slow, stop and go, and idling.

[markopolo]

My understanding is that the regeneration process is automatic when needed. If that fails then you get the warning message (page 211 maintenance manual). That's your - hit the highway or else - message.

Page 153 - operators manual - gives the guideline for problem prevention if idling: (if/then) - if "stationary for long periods" then " drive on a highway or an inter-urban road"

[gerrym51]

early sprinters where made to be able to trigger rgenerations manually. i was very interested in buying a sprinter in 2007 and investigated them and the dpf. i ended up not buying one.

a lot of people also don'tunderstand the threshold check(i don't). however at 90,000 miles on a spsinter it starts being checked. even ifyour van works perfectly if the threshold catagory does not meet parameters iteitherhas to be replaced or cleaned. this is because the dpf is judged not to be cleaning to correct parameters.

after that every maintenance cycle the dpf is checked for this threshold of meeting the parameters. at some point-and this is the rub because there is no set point-the dpf will fail the threshold. USUALLY it is between 125000 to 150000 miles although it can be later if good dpf maintenance procedures maintained.

most people who post here have not reached the 90,000 mile mark on their sprinters-so they do not realiise the dpf is not meeting specs-even if they have no problems with it. after the dpf is replaced/cleaned itis NOT checked for threshold until another 90,000 miles have past.

[Davydd]

I see you non-Sprinter owners are still obsessing. Very true. Most of us Sprinter owners may never see 90,000 miles. I know I would probably be moving on to better again by then, and I have enjoyed a good 90,000 non-worry, great miles of travel since 2007.

But poo poo me. If this has you agonizing over a Sprinter then maybe you'll listen to Jim Hammill. This is what he posted and he has a major stake in the game.

Folks, you don't even have to think about checking the DPF until 90000 miles. And then it's not used up just needs a check. And fleets are seeing 300000 miles out of a filter. And big fleets idle constantly. So Roadtrek wants any worries put to rest. This filter is not a worry for you. It's now a Roadtrek warranty item as well and we will handle it. There is no need for anybody to even waste five minutes on the discussion except to note we have your back. Have a great day!

[markopolo]

David - don't worry about what we're discussing here.

You're not interested - great - but I am

[gerrym51]

Davydd- you have an opinion.

but one of the reasons i did not move on the sprinter in 2007 was dpf replacement and it cost. in 2007the dpf issues that later developed had not occured.

however- MB said the dpf would have to be replaced between125,000to 150,000miles. the replacement price at the time was 3500 dollars and no possibility of cleaning(this was 2007).


i was not enthused about a diesel but it did get better mileage and was told diesel engines would last at least 500,000 miles. however replacement over 500,000 miles would mean at least 2 dpf's. it was cheaper to buy a new gas engine every 200,000 miles


Davydd-you and Mike Wendlend always get new sprinters before 90,000 miles