Promaster and Sprinter Campervans in Moab

[MsNomer]

This thread is making me feel young.

When people see my PM DIY, they often say, "This is like a VW camper." (And I reply, "Yep, a VW camper that runs.") Kicker is that I'm 69.

I'm lucky that I am capable of this DIY because what I have is simply unavailable otherwise.

[BBQ]

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No pix?

[PinIN]

Her build is on the Promaster forum, same name.

[MsNomer]

Yup.

MsNomer: Hiker's Paradise - Ram Promaster Forum

I'm down to finishing touches. I haven't addressed it yet in the build thread, but we've recently added a second 100Ah battery and 300W solar.

[BBQ]

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Thanks

[Scottbaldassari]

I find this such an interesting topic. First off, I do agree there would be a market, for a cheaper, but functional campervan. I also agree that Sportsmobile comes the closest to this model (they are very modular based despite their claims of "custom"). Problem is, they are NOT inexpensive. You could buy a WGO Travato "K" from Sportsmobile, but it would be much closer to 100K, VS the 70K from Winnebago.

I spent over a year doing pretty detailed research re building a "basic" Promaster Camper Van. I basically wanted a stripped down Travato "G" without air, Stereo, TV, Generator, etc . Sportsmobile (and a couple custom builders including Morehead Designs) couldn't, or didn't want to, emulate it. And even when they came close, their prices were around 90-100K WITHOUT all those features included in the Travato.

When I added up the Van and all the parts, and figured building it myself, it was still gonna cost $50-$60K (if everything went right, which it wouldn't), STILL didn't have all the features, AND it would probably take a year of my life. As mentioned above, most people never quite finish their "self builds", and I surely would have been one of them.

The big Promaster runs around 40K. I think there COULD be a good market for what were talking about, but you're not going to get a camper van built for $50 or $60K. It's pretty amazing to me that WGO can put one out with all those additional items, for 70K. I just don't think it can be beat. One possibility would be for Winnebago to make "stripped down" versions of the existing Travatos, but I'm guessing they couldn't cut enough off the price to make it worth their while. If they could only knock a couple thousand off the net price, would it really make any difference in their market? Like Davyd said, they have a pretty good grasp on their market, and they are not losing many customers for all that they gain by adding those couple little niceties...

[Keyne]

Exactly why I hope WGO builds their Sprinter Adventure Concept... A chance to get a more basic design for less than 100k with 4x4. It's not perfect of course but it ticks most boxes.

[mojoman]

The big Promaster can be bought for around $32K. For what you want, you could keep the cost well under $50k. I built mine for about $60K, it has everything we wanted, all high end marine components, real hardwoods, super insulated, solar, 900AH lithium, generator, all the comforts including a thick latex mattress. I seldom paid retail for anything on the van as I spent much time shopping online, close to a year before I started.

[Scottbaldassari]

Originally Posted by mojoman

The big Promaster can be bought for around $32K. For what you want, you could keep the cost well under $50k. I built mine for about $60K,...I spent much time shopping online, close to a year before I started.

I was looking at fully loaded Promasters, and at the time they were running 38,000 with all the options I wanted. On top of that I was adding steps, windows, wheels, roof racks, swivel seats, NAV, bike racks, etc etc. All of the things the Travato has plus some others, like the larger alternator.

I was trying to say it was going to cost me 50 or 60K, if I did it myself, and I couldn't "get it built" (by an upfitter) for that price. If I tried to do it myself, it was also going to take a year of research, and a year of building.. For me, since my plan was so close to the Travato anyway, it just wasn't worth $10K for that much time, effort and aggravation. (though I understand, some people have the time and find it "fun").

Point being, we were talking about buying a basic camper for $50 or 60K from an upfitter, and I don't see how it could be possible.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by mojoman

The big Promaster can be bought for around $32K. For what you want, you could keep the cost well under $50k. I built mine for about $60K, it has everything we wanted, all high end marine components, real hardwoods, super insulated, solar, 900AH lithium, generator, all the comforts including a thick latex mattress. I seldom paid retail for anything on the van as I spent much time shopping online, close to a year before I started.

900AH lithium

[mojoman]

The sticker for a 2500 I bought was over $38K as it was loaded with options including aluminum wheels and larger alternator etc... I got it for $30K. That's the savings of buying one in a dealer's inventory, if you order one, the savings is much less. Swivel seats, rear camera, tow package, nav can be installed at a fraction of what the option costs are if you are handy. I looked at the sprinter and it would have cost $44K for roughly the same package but they don't discount much as compared to dodge and ford. MB discounts 5-10% where ford and dodge discount 20-25% depending on time of year.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by mojoman

The big Promaster can be bought for around $32K. For what you want, you could keep the cost well under $50k. I built mine for about $60K, it has everything we wanted, all high end marine components, real hardwoods, super insulated, solar, 900AH lithium, generator, all the comforts including a thick latex mattress. I seldom paid retail for anything on the van as I spent much time shopping online, close to a year before I started.

mojoman:

Can you talk about your battery setup?


Roadtrek users are having a major problem with their vampire draw.
(each 200A module loses 60w to the BMS )

What is the experience with your setup?

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by BBQ

mojoman:

Can you talk about your battery setup?


Roadtrek users are having a major problem with their vampire draw.
(each 200A module loses 60w to the BMS )

What is the experience with your setup?

That is just crazy. I went to check on my van on Monday, and after 4 weeks unattended, unplugged ( and disconnect switch off) I was still reading 13.4 volts.

[mojoman]

I have 20 Calib 180 AH cells , a simple BMS that alarms first then trips a Contactor that protects the bank of high or low voltage. That BMS system and Contractor operates under 2 amps while on. I have 4 methods of charging, shore, 400 watts of solar, onan generator, Sterling 120amp battery to battery charger from the vans 220amp alternator.
I also have an aux 65amp AGM battery to run everything when I turn off the Lithium bank when traveling, storage or when I don't need 120v.
I also have a backup 40 amp charger/powersupply and two smart trickle chargers on an aux/storage 15amp service I use when parked for long periods. It keeps the aux AGM battery and the van's engine battery maintained along with the water tank and battery heater power.
Every outlet 12v and 110v/ supply or outlet has a switch so I have very little parasitic loss.
I have 3 main battery control switches to cross connect and route 12v anywhere anytime incase of equipment failure, including the van's alternator.

[Scottbaldassari]

Originally Posted by mojoman

The sticker for a 2500 I bought was over $38K as it was loaded with options including aluminum wheels and larger alternator etc... I got it for $30K. That's the savings of buying one in a dealer's inventory, if you order one, the savings is much less. Swivel seats, rear camera, tow package, nav can be installed at a fraction of what the option costs are if you are handy. I looked at the sprinter and it would have cost $44K for roughly the same package but they don't discount much as compared to dodge and ford. MB discounts 5-10% where ford and dodge discount 20-25% depending on time of year.

Yes.. sounds about right. The 3500 high roof extended I was looking at was over 44,000 list, I had negotiated prices down to 38K. I did have some "gotta haves" on my list, that I could only find (at the time), by ordering from the factory. The 2500 is a shorter, more commonly inventoried Van.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to denigrate your decision, a totally customized, self built rig would definitely be the way to go when one had the resources, time, energy, skills and "want to" to build it. Not only can you get it EXACTLY the way you want it, you will know your rig inside and out, and have the satisfaction of knowing you did it yourself.

[Jostalli]

I did the same thing Mojoman did. I bought a Promaster 3500 for $29k and built it better than any commercially available option. 600W solar, 640Ah LiFePO4 batteries, all electric, etc., composting toilet, dry bath, with a layout I designed that makes the most sense in a small van.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

That is just crazy. I went to check on my van on Monday, and after 4 weeks unattended, unplugged ( and disconnect switch off) I was still reading 13.4 volts.

Ecotreks do not discharge when they are offline so they will behave just as yours does when sitting unplugged with the batteries disconnected, the ridiculous BMS power draw only happens when they are online...

[rockymtnb]

Jumping back to the original topic of basic campervan conversions in the Moab area here's an update from recent trips:

Last year the noticeable trend was Sprinters everywhere, particularly the 4wd short wheelbase conversions. The ones I got to peek inside were relatively utilitarian - usually with raised bed systems, solar, fridge/sink combos, and some had pretty slick sliding bike/gear trays. Full bathrooms, generators, propane were rare.

This year we've starting to see more campervan conversions appear on the Transit chassis. Transit, or its Econoline ancestor, had always been the most popular passenger van, but the it does now seem to be catching on for conversions. Overall Sprinters are still most popular by far, Promasters next, but Transits are entering the fray.

For factory built Class B's we usually see a few Eras and Travatos, some Roadtreks, particularly the Simplicity model which appears to be a common rental, and this year a Winnebago Revel 4wd. But the more basic adventure van conversions outnumber the factory Class B's.

What's interesting has been the industry response. Large Class B manufacturers haven't addressed the basic adventure campervan market, although Winnebago released the well-received 4wd Revel at the upper end of the market. But a plethora of smaller regional van conversion outfits have sprung up including Tourig, VanDoIt, Wanderer, Titan Vans, Cardiff, Vanlife Customs, Wafarer, etc.

It feels like the early days of the American automotive industry where every region had a local builder, before the consolidation into the big three. It will be interesting to see where this vanlife / adventure van trend goes - whether the traditional RV manufacturers step up to address the market or whether the smaller converters will battle it out to see who has the most staying power...

[teck13]

Originally Posted by rockymtnb

Jumping back to the original topic of basic campervan conversions in the Moab area here's an update from recent trips:

...

What's interesting has been the industry response. Large Class B manufacturers haven't addressed the basic adventure campervan market, although Winnebago released the well-received 4wd Revel at the upper end of the market. But a plethora of smaller regional van conversion outfits have sprung up including Tourig, VanDoIt, Wanderer, Titan Vans, Cardiff, Vanlife Customs, Wafarer, etc.

It feels like the early days of the American automotive industry where every region had a local builder, before the consolidation into the big three. It will be interesting to see where this vanlife / adventure van trend goes - whether the traditional RV manufacturers step up to address the market or whether the smaller converters will battle it out to see who has the most staying power...

I have posted about this very topic quite a lot on other threads. I am 100% with you on this. Right now the demand for adventure type vans is off the charts. Eight month to one year wait for any Sprinter based 4X4.

There will be a consolidation and shaking out, especially when the economy turns - which of course it will. There will always be a demand for local/regional custom builders but how many of the large manufacturers are going to make it? Surprisingly, at least to me, Winnebago is on it with the outdoorsy Travato G & K and the adventure/extreme sports Revel. I keep wishing there was a "love child" of a Travato and Revel. Pleasure-Way has outstanding quality and that will probably allow them to grow and be successful but they will need to look at adding an adventure entry or give up that segment to the others.

Airstream has the design, history and niche to make it long term - plus vans are an aside to their wildly profitable travel trailer business. Hymer, had they been smart, would have made a play for ARV instead of Roadtrek to "own" an "innovation segment" - which they have a reputation for in Europe. Roadtrek is a cash cow, hoping they don't have to change too much and can keep selling units to older baby boomers but that is obviously not sustainable long term.

Safari Condo. Wish they had more U.S.A. presence. Seems like they get it. Sportsmobile. They seem sort of in-between a large manufacturer and a custom shop. Probably a good market position but they will have to thread the needle carefully and watch costs and pricing.

Coachman, Midwest Auto seem to be going after the luxury buyer which is fine and good as long as their quality and the economy holds.

All the major manufacturers will need to figure out what their strengths are and what kind of positioning they want for their company and products. The smart and fleet companies will survive and many will disappear.

Younger Boomers and Gen X are here and want a different kind of van than one that looks like a living room and drives nicely from one RV Park to the next. Millennials are as big in numbers as Boomers and the vanlife movement speaks to them - at least for now. So they are a target, one likely different than the Younger Boomer/Gen X target. Older Boomer have high disposable income so they will continue to be a target.

Said another way, I think eventually there will be about five van segments shaking out. Extreme vans to support extreme sports, adventure vans to facilitate outdoor activities, RV vans and luxury van for RV parks and mobile offices, Full Timer Vans, and finally minimal/low complexity and low cost vans. Of course there will be vans and manufacturers that straddle segments.

It will be very interesting to watch and/or be a part of.

How do the rest of you think this will fall out?

[gregmchugh]

I don’t think ARV would have been a good choice for Hymer and in any case I don’t see the owner of ARV being interested in it anyway.

Hymer, I think, made a good acquisition if the goal was getting an existing manufacturing facility and experienced workers and distribution network. They may not have gotten the results they were looking for yet but they surely could focus more on the younger market with more Hymer models if that wanted to.

Does Winnebago get a high priority on 4wd Sprinters? I notice that Lichstinn has two in stock at the moment...