Potential for electric Tesla type class B?

[Ceci]

Hi all. I’m considering getting a class B rig in the next 1-2 years and full timing. Given that I live in the southeast, I’m looking at the lithium options for the coach electrical.

Does anyone see on the horizon that the industry could also shift in the next 5-8 years toward electric drivetrains? Can Tesla type systems provide enough power for a loaded van?

[RossWilliams]

I think someone will be producing RV's with electric drive trains. I doubt they will become industry standard. The problem is not the power required, which can be done with current technology, but the the distance limitations of electric vehicles between charges. Their don't seem to be any special advantages for an RV with an electric drive train. That means electric vehicles will be adopted by the RV industry after they take over the motor vehicle industry in general.

By contrast, the RV industry has the potential to be early adopters of self-driving technology. I suspect there are lots of folks out there who would love to have their RV just take them where they want to go.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

By contrast, the RV industry has the potential to be early adopters of self-driving technology. I suspect there are lots of folks out there who would love to have their RV just take them where they want to go.

Yeah, but first somebody has to develop a seatbelt that you can wear while sleeping in the back.

[Davydd]

I wonder if personal transportation will end for the most part before electric supplants fossil fuels. After all lithium or any other mineral is as finite and probably as difficult to get at increasingly as oil. Fracking for oil only delayed the coming of the demise predicted at the turn of the century. Consequently pushing three to four tons (Class Bs) down the road for maybe two people may never come to pass if priorities take place. It's hard to predict the future. I may be totally wrong on this.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

After all lithium or any other mineral is as finite and probably as difficult to get at increasingly as oil.

The difference is that lithium is not used as a primary energy source, but oil is. We aren't burning the lithium, so it is (in principle) infinitely recyclable. The energy hopefully comes from renewable sources.

Bucky Fuller taught us to think of the use of the elements as a "circulatory system", constantly being reused in a closed loop ("Spaceship Earth").

[GallenH]

Have a relative with a Tesla who drove cross country to visit. He had to plan carefully and plot recharge stations along the way. Worked fine. But he was traveling a major freeway through large cities. Many of us go to remote areas and national parks. It seems to me that someday charging station locations will be much more abundant and battery packs that are more powerful will make that possible. I just don't see it in the timeframe the OP is curious about. Just a skeptic, I guess.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GallenH

Have a relative with a Tesla who drove cross country to visit. He had to plan carefully and plot recharge stations along the way. Worked fine. But he was traveling a major freeway through large cities. Many of us go to remote areas and national parks. It seems to me that someday charging station locations will be much more abundant and battery packs that are more powerful will make that possible. I just don't see it in the timeframe the OP is curious about. Just a skeptic, I guess.

You are probably right for the most part. There are two mitigations, though:

1) It is easy to overestimate how much driving the average RVer does. We B-vanners are a special breed. A very large number of folks are weekenders who take the family to a nearby State Park and stay there.

2) Lots of places where folks camp already have charging infrastructure in the form of sites with shore power. Admittedly, significant upgrading will be called for, but existing 50 amp service is a start.

[RossWilliams]

"I wonder if personal transportation will end for the most part before electric supplants fossil fuels."

I think that is possible. It is a doubtful proposition that we can stop climate change without changing our behavior and simply substituting different technologies for the ones causing it. The changes will likely be far more profound than that.

For now, electricity for transportation is almost all resulting in more fossil fuel being used to produce electricity. There are few, if any, places where the entire connected grid has a surplus of electricity produced from non-fossil fuel sources. And the shift to electric transportation is likely to delay us reaching that point.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

For now, electricity for transportation is almost all resulting in more fossil fuel being used to produce electricity. There are few, if any, places where the entire connected grid has a surplus of electricity produced from non-fossil fuel sources. And the shift to electric transportation is likely to delay us reaching that point.

This argument doesn't make a lot of sense. The "entire connected grid" doesn't need a net surplus of clean electricity in order for emissions-free vehicles to contribute to reduced emissions. A vehicle burning hydrocarbons is getting 100% of its energy from fossil-fuel sources. An electric vehicle charged from the grid is getting the same percentage of its power from fossil-fuel sources as the grid. This is much less than 100% everywhere. (It is 69% in California). And, the percentage is improving VERY rapidly (In California, the percentage of renewables has more than doubled in the past 8 years). If you are burning less oil, you are burning less oil. No number of clever statistics can change that.

Yes, you can make arguments about the impact of mining lithium and so on, but those are transition costs, not steady state.

[Bud]

Hi avanti and all,

Maybe 4-6 years ago I thought about folks buying a Prius years ago to save the large animals (including human animals) from man made climate change. Was it going to make any change, was it effective, .............

I was with a Liberal international law professor with an Ivy League college that I know. I asked him if it was an 'Ethical Thing' on an individual basis? Driving a Toyota Prius. I had decided my own opinion, so I was running it by him without telling him my opinion. True story. His answer was NO, it was an international Global/Government issue. An individual decision to drive a Prius was going to make no difference. Not that individual behavior did not matter, it does. We can influence. Maybe speeding it up would be best in terms of an international global/government solution, who knows?

I may be near getting moderated. Hey, your good at it avanti. It is political, fact. Nearing being moderated! It is a "Chinese Hoax", not help. i've now been moderator for awhile. Love my B, Bye.

Bud

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Bud

I may be near getting moderated.

[Moderator's Note: You're right, it is getting close. I will let it stand for now, but if the discussion goes hard political, I will delete everything from message #8 onwards. Let's not.]

[Davydd]

I am in the camp if it depends on the survival of the human race we will extract every bit of fossil fuel we can possibly get. It is just a matter of sooner or later.

I live in the happiest county in America (Carver County, MN), so says a source, and I am not going to bother to Google it to prove it. It is kind of a rural county and the biggest controversy for the county is solar farms (a NIMBY thing that I can gather at this stage) vs. crops.

As I mentioned you can't predict the future, but no one, private or public county, state, or nation, is keeping up with providing campground accommodations for the number of growing RVers. Is that just simple economics or hedging intrinsic knowledge of the future? Or are there are cycles of interest? Bowling, fishing and golfing are down in Minnesota. In the view from my backyard and number of trails added, bicycling is up.

[RossWilliams]

I am curious as to what the advantages of an electric RV are setting aside any environmental benefits. I am told that Tesla's are fun to drive, but acceleration would not be a big factor for me when buying an RV.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

I am curious as to what the advantages of an electric RV are setting aside any environmental benefits. I am told that Tesla's are fun to drive, but acceleration would not be a big factor for me when buying an RV.

Well, for one thing, in a perfect world it would have an integrated electrical system with a VERY large house battery. In practice, though, things probably won't evolve that way, at least at first.

There is also the potential for mature electric vehicles to be far more reliable. They have a tiny fraction of the moving parts of an ICE-based vehicle. Admittedly, this advantage is not RV-specific.

[tooTallforB?]

To come back to Tesla based motorhome, I don't think anybody linked this interesting concept from Vanlifer based (on the still vapor-wagen at this point tesla semi-truck):

https://vanlifer.com/blogs/news/tesl...ifer-semi-home

Edit: so is it too early to expect an Advanced RV Tesla semi based RV?

[RossWilliams]

is it too early to expect an Advanced RV Tesla semi based RV?

Its still too early to have a Tesla semi. I think even their projected production date is the end of next year. According to Wikipedia, Freightliner has an electric semi scheduled for mass production in 2021.

Battery powered electric buses are already available if cost is not object. The problem is range ...

[tooTallforB?]

hah. I see the schedule changed recently and was pushed another year... With Tesla track record of delays on new products, it might even get pushed further. That's too bad because I think any electric vehicle with a 400-500 miles range is getting in a sweet spot.

As someone pointed out earlier, a lot of campgrounds are already wired for 50amps, this could be a great solution for "topping up" outside of a network of fast chargers or installing fast charging solutions.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I am in the camp if it depends on the survival of the human race we will extract every bit of fossil fuel we can possibly get. It is just a matter of sooner or later.

I live in the happiest county in America (Carver County, MN), so says a source, and I am not going to bother to Google it to prove it. It is kind of a rural county and the biggest controversy for the county is solar farms (a NIMBY thing that I can gather at this stage) vs. crops.

As I mentioned you can't predict the future, but no one, private or public county, state, or nation, is keeping up with providing campground accommodations for the number of growing RVers. Is that just simple economics or hedging intrinsic knowledge of the future? Or are there are cycles of interest? Bowling, fishing and golfing are down in Minnesota. In the view from my backyard and number of trails added, bicycling is up.

"As I mentioned you can't predict the future...."

David, I'm tending to side with that statement concerning AI and the mathematical term, 'Singularity' which basically means 'Not Knowable'. You might be familiar.

Bud

[RossWilliams]

campgrounds are already wired for 50amps

I doubt most campground electrical systems would handle charging many vehicles, but it might work for the early adopters. Scaling is a big issue, you can have a lot more 50 amp maximum circuits than you can supply with 50 amps simultaneously.

[tooTallforB?]

That issue is actually true for EVs in general: imagine one (or two) EVs in every residential garage, all charging at night at the same time. I don't think the residential grid (or the whole electric grid and production facilities for that matter) are designed for this. But we're not quite there yet.