Pet Concerns

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by Jostalli

We have plenty of experience with off-grid climate control. We explain the equipment required for off-grid A/C (800Ah-900Ah lithium and either rooftop or split DC A/C) to every prospect. 14-16 hours of runtime is typical. Aux alternator is recommended.

Is that the smaller BTU systems? Also, to get 16 hours runtime what conditions are we talking about? Is it Pacific Northwest or south of Tampa? Do you advise your clients of any time limits for idling the engine? Is that limit enough to get the system ready for another 16 hour runtime session or would they have to hit the highway for a long drive on day 2?

The more info you can provide the better off we'll all be.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by Dave-Oh

................... I am considering the Galleria with the Li3 system and was contemplating how much solar I really would need. I note that they are now claiming, with the ProAir 12v Air conditioner, 10 honest hours of runtime of the Air Conditioner with the 600amp LiFePo batteries. ................

That's a pretty clear claim by Coachmen & ProAir and promoted by Xantrex. One guy in the video says "minimum of 10 hours" but he did preface it with "should". Same guy says set it at 72 degrees.

We'll see user reports soon enough and know how long runtime they get.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O3DOsbRzR4

The 600Ah battery is 88% usable before you get a warning and will shut down when down to 10% capacity remaining. That's already down to 528Ah usable pre-warning stage with nothing else on.


proair amp draw.jpg

Let's say you want to keep 50Ah available for all other things so you're now down to 478Ah that you're willing to devote to running the A/C. If we pick the 90 degree ambient temperature from the Proair chart we see that power consumption is 91 amps. 478/91=5.25 that indicates that you could probably count on 5 hours of A/C runtime at 100% duty cycle. At 50% duty cycle it does look like you could get 10 hours. I don't know if a 50% duty cycle matches well with 90 degree ambient or not - would the van have to be in the shade or is that at night? It would be really useful if Proair and Coachmen or Xantrex explained the test conditions that permit the 10hr runtime.

From the Xantrex e-gen operator manual:

Recommended Ambient Temperature
Charging range * 0 – 35 °C (32 – 95 °F)
Discharging range* -20 – 40 °C (-4 – 104 °F)
Storage range** 15 – 35 °C (59 – 95 °F)

* Staying within the recommended ambient temperature range will yield optimal system performance. For maximum temperature specifications, refer to each device's datasheet and Owner's Guide.
** Refer to the battery manufacturer’s recommendations for short-term (<1 month) and long-term (>1 month up to 3 months) storage. Proper storage is crucial to battery longevity and fast system deployment.

Based on where I live, I would not be able to stay within the recommendations for all three: neither charging, discharging nor storage.

[InterBlog]

My husband and I have 300 AH lithium, 300 watts solar, and a 2,000 watt inverter. We can run our roof a/c for about 2 hours on battery. I also run it on the OEM generator at times.

Among my security DIY installations is a Canary IP camera which includes climate monitoring (temp and humidity) sent to my phone in real time (the Canary is enabled by a Netgear air card that I include on my main cellular account with Verizon).

Because I have this particular Canary (we own several similar devices) mounted near the curb side upper front "corner" of the van, it is right near the roof and reports a much hotter temp than the van actually is down at the level of my dog. From experience, I know what the correlation looks like (depending on the sun angle, it can read about 15 degrees hotter than the temp at her location).

When I leave her in the van in urban areas, and in conditions when it may become hot, I always have this live link to the Canary. Always. If conditions change in the van, I can see it on my iPhone in real time, and I can return to the van immediately. Thus, I'm not trusting her safety to any one system that might break down unexpectedly.

Red arrow pointed at her, all the way in the back. The Canary is optimized for closer facial recognition, so a bit blurry in the background:

[booster]

Marko's very good post above shows exactly why we always need to see how all these claims for AC run and other power use stuff are calculated and under what conditions. 10 hours of AC run claims are basically useless without that information,IMO. as nobody really will know if they will really get 10 hours under their conditions or not. Of course, this is likely the intent for the marketing, basically to leave out the conditions so they can make the best looking performance, while still "technically" telling the truth.


It certainly appears that Coachman is assuming a 50% duty cycle to get the 10 hour claim per Marko's calculations, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you declare that and the conditions that gave that duty cycle. Most customers are going to see 10 hours minimum called out and assume it is literally true, and that regardless of conditions they will get 10 hours of AC time from full batteries. This is just like the IdleUp discussion where we finally found out the tests were run at night in a precooled van, but that wasn't stated in the original claims of run time and we never did get the temps.


I am afraid this world where it is now getting common for the manufacturers to mix units at will to confuse customers and omit critical information that is needed. Roadtrek started most of this and was able to get away with it for a long time with bluster and deception and now the others seem to be following that model.


I guess the RV manufacturers are working hard at earning their terrible reputation for honesty.

[avanti]

In A/C run-time discussions, the only number that ever interests me is current draw at the battery while the compressor is running. This allows for apples-to-apples comparisons. The fancy variable-speed compressors complicate this a bit and it will still be temperature sensitive (for several reasons), but I think it is still the best way to compare. Many assumptions are removed when you look at it that way.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by booster

Marko's very good post above shows exactly why we always need to see how all these claims for AC run and other power use stuff are calculated and under what conditions. 10 hours of AC run claims are basically useless without that information,IMO. as nobody really will know if they will really get 10 hours under their conditions or not. Of course, this is likely the intent for the marketing, basically to leave out the conditions so they can make the best looking performance, while still "technically" telling the truth.


It certainly appears that Coachman is assuming a 50% duty cycle to get the 10 hour claim per Marko's calculations, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you declare that and the conditions that gave that duty cycle. Most customers are going to see 10 hours minimum called out and assume it is literally true, and that regardless of conditions they will get 10 hours of AC time from full batteries. This is just like the IdleUp discussion where we finally found out the tests were run at night in a precooled van, but that wasn't stated in the original claims of run time and we never did get the temps.


I am afraid this world where it is now getting common for the manufacturers to mix units at will to confuse customers and omit critical information that is needed. Roadtrek started most of this and was able to get away with it for a long time with bluster and deception and now the others seem to be following that model.


I guess the RV manufacturers are working hard at earning their terrible reputation for honesty.

booster, there is obviously some truth about what you have written. But Coachmen is not Roadtrek/Wendlands. And there are answers with Coachmen, Lithionics, Zantrex.............. Not even available with Roadtrek.

[markopolo]

Roadtrek's more recent guidance would appear way more conservative than Coachmen:

With RT's 800Ah pack being 80% usable before protection kicks in it leaves 640Ah usable and they say that you can expect 5 hours runtime. Even with it being an AC and not DC air conditioner my calcs still indicate that is calculated at a 100% duty cycle.

From the guidance: https://www.roadtrek.com/wp-content/...il-24-2017.pdf

With 4 EcoTrek batteries you have a usable bank of about 8000 watt hours, so you can run your air conditioner for about 8000W/1500W which equals approximately 5 hours.

[Drpjfitz]

Originally Posted by Jostalli

We have plenty of experience with off-grid climate control. We explain the equipment required for off-grid A/C (800Ah-900Ah lithium and either rooftop or split DC A/C) to every prospect. 14-16 hours of runtime is typical. Aux alternator is recommended.

Thank you—that’s very helpful. I’m definitely feeling more confident about traveling full time with my dogs, as a single person.

[Drpjfitz]

Originally Posted by Dave-Oh

Davydd,

I am concerned about the dogs as well and we're getting ready to downsize to a class B this fall/winter after one more big trip. You made a good point about solar, you're not getting it for your next van. I am considering the Galleria with the Li3 system and was contemplating how much solar I really would need. I note that they are now claiming, with the ProAir 12v Air conditioner, 10 honest hours of runtime of the Air Conditioner with the 600amp LiFePo batteries. That sounds about perfect for my needs, and I would not need solar, either as I'd either be driving (quicker charge with the second alternator) or at a campground for most overnights (charging on shore power). I understand the LiFePo batteries can be turned-off and lose little charge when sitting, don't need watering and are relatively maintenance-free.

I want neither a generator or to over-do the solar. Looking forward to hearing more about what a van with total battery-powered systems would look like. The final thing I'd love to get rid of is the propane - a heating system powered by diesel would be better, but not sure how trouble-free those systems are vs the propane system that many coaches have.

Hope the OP is getting a good feel for what is available to meet her needs.

best,

Dave

Definitely, Dave. Tons of great information! It sounds like the most important is to understand the minimum equipment requirements so that I can select the best RV for me (and my pups).

[Drpjfitz]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Roadtrek's more recent guidance would appear way more conservative than Coachmen:

With RT's 800Ah pack being 80% usable before protection kicks in it leaves 640Ah usable and they say that you can expect 5 hours runtime. Even with it being an AC and not DC air conditioner my calcs still indicate that is calculated at a 100% duty cycle.

From the guidance: https://www.roadtrek.com/wp-content/...il-24-2017.pdf

Excellent—thanks for this information, Markopolo!

[Drpjfitz]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

My husband and I have 300 AH lithium, 300 watts solar, and a 2,000 watt inverter. We can run our roof a/c for about 2 hours on battery. I also run it on the OEM generator at times.

Among my security DIY installations is a Canary IP camera which includes climate monitoring (temp and humidity) sent to my phone in real time (the Canary is enabled by a Netgear air card that I include on my main cellular account with Verizon).

Because I have this particular Canary (we own several similar devices) mounted near the curb side upper front "corner" of the van, it is right near the roof and reports a much hotter temp than the van actually is down at the level of my dog. From experience, I know what the correlation looks like (depending on the sun angle, it can read about 15 degrees hotter than the temp at her location).

When I leave her in the van in urban areas, and in conditions when it may become hot, I always have this live link to the Canary. Always. If conditions change in the van, I can see it on my iPhone in real time, and I can return to the van immediately. Thus, I'm not trusting her safety to any one system that might break down unexpectedly.

Red arrow pointed at her, all the way in the back. The Canary is optimized for closer facial recognition, so a bit blurry in the background:

Thanks, InterBlog! May I ask what brand/model RV you have?

[Davydd]

So, once you deplete your batteries how are you going to recharge them? Generator for many hours? Idling? A Sprinter is not recommended for more than 2 hours and if you don’t have a second robust alternator you are only going to put back 80ah. Or do you have to just get up and drive all day? Think about it. If you need air conditioning overnight you will most certainly need it during the day. These claims of multiple hours off-grid give false hope or coming from a sales department not knowing reality. Coachmen is doing the same as the Roadtrek boast.

[Jostalli]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Is that the smaller BTU systems? Also, to get 16 hours runtime what conditions are we talking about? Is it Pacific Northwest or south of Tampa? Do you advise your clients of any time limits for idling the engine? Is that limit enough to get the system ready for another 16 hour runtime session or would they have to hit the highway for a long drive on day 2?

The more info you can provide the better off we'll all be.

Hey, Marko great questions. Our recommendations are based on current draw on high/Max. Take the Kingtec k20d we use for rooftop installations, which draws 42-45 amps on high. We install at least 800Ah (usable) LiFePO4 battery and a Nations 280 amp aux alternator. We advise clients to only idle for short periods (1-3 hours) followed by a spirited drive for at least 30 minutes after long idling.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by Jostalli

Hey, Marko great questions. Our recommendations are based on current draw on high/Max. Take the Kingtec k20d we use for rooftop installations, which draws 42-45 amps on high. We install at least 800Ah (usable) LiFePO4 battery and a Nations 280 amp aux alternator. We advise clients to only idle for short periods (1-3 hours) followed by a spirited drive for at least 30 minutes after long idling.

13.5K BTU and 45A at 12V DC according to a spec sheet I found ! That's really good.


Kingtech.png

[avanti]

Kingtec k20d:

Originally Posted by markopolo

13.5K BTU and 45A at 12V DC according to a spec sheet I found ! That's really good.

Ouch! $3500 on eBay, even more on Amazon.

May as well go with the ARV unit.

Anybody know if it quiet?

[Jostalli]

Originally Posted by avanti

Kingtec k20d:



Ouch! $3500 on eBay, even more on Amazon.

May as well go with the ARV unit.

Anybody know if it quiet?

We don’t charge clients that much. If you want one we are dealers and can provide service.

I think it is quiet. I have one here on the floor at the shop. I will unbox it and fire it up. You want to FaceTime to listen to it?

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by Drpjfitz

Thanks for responding. Then how do single people with pets travel full time in an RV? I know they do so surely there is a way to deal with it safely. Otherwise, I cannot make this life decision for the future.

Do NOT buy an all-electric coach. Buy one with a propane furnace, a generator, and a roof AC unit. I've been traveling for nearly ten years with my Cavalier King Charles spaniels. If it's 60-75, leave the windows open and set the fantastic fan thermostat to move air through the coach and exhaust it at the roof. The coach will never get above ambient.

If it's going to be warmer than that, start the generator and run the roof air unit at the temp you'd like. If it's cooler, set the furnace thermostat.

It's really just that simple... unless you have the latest and greatest all-electric stuff... and I have absolutely NO advice to offer with that stuff. I do all my own RV repairs, and I wouldn't have the faintest idea how to work on that stuff... nor do I consider it reliable enough to trust my dogs to it. The propane furnace/generator/AC/Fantastic Fan solution has been the de rigeur solution now for nearly 30 years. It's tried and true equipment and is about as reliable as anything you can do in a house.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by hepcat

Do NOT buy an all-electric coach. Buy one with a propane furnace, a generator, and a roof AC unit. I've been traveling for nearly ten years with my Cavalier King Charles spaniels. If it's 60-75, leave the windows open and set the fantastic fan thermostat to move air through the coach and exhaust it at the roof. The coach will never get above ambient.

If it's going to be warmer than that, start the generator and run the roof air unit at the temp you'd like. If it's cooler, set the furnace thermostat.

It's really just that simple... unless you have the latest and greatest all-electric stuff... and I have absolutely NO advice to offer with that stuff. I do all my own RV repairs, and I wouldn't have the faintest idea how to work on that stuff... nor do I consider it reliable enough to trust my dogs to it. The propane furnace/generator/AC/Fantastic Fan solution has been the de rigeur solution now for nearly 30 years. It's tried and true equipment and is about as reliable as anything you can do in a house.

It seems to me that Any ac system has to be backed up no matter the technology if the rv'er has dogs or .............

Bud

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by Bud

It seems to me that Any ac system has to be backed up no matter the technology if the rv'er has dogs or .............

Bud

The point of failure on the all-electric systems seems to be the inverter, or the master panel, or the batteries' capacities. And when they fail, they fail catastrophically. I HAVE had an AC unit blow the starting condensor on a travel trailer. A local RV place replaced it in 30 minutes. Of course there can be failures, but in the old systems, they're almost non-existant and they generally give you warning. ANY RV place can work on them and has parts. When the new inverter equipment fails, you're not likely to find parts or service easily. And when you do, you'd better hope that all that equipment is under warranty. It's cool stuff... of that there is no doubt... but it's expensive, still not common, and with all the failures you read about, not yet reliable enough for my taste.

It took a good ten years' development for automotive ECU systems to be reliable, and longer yet for all of the ancillary devices to be more reliable than their mechanical/analog forebearers. RV systems will get there, but I don't believe they're there yet.

The backup to the AC unit failing, by the way, is the fantastic fan/windows and/or the dash-air unit. But in ten years of traveling with my dogs in a variety of motorhomes, I've never had a generator or AC unit fail in use. As a matter of fact, the dogs are why I switched from travel trailers to motorhomes; to have a generator to power the AC when I'm parked and out and about. The closest I had to a failure was a generator fuel line break, and that was repaired in an Auto Zone parking lot with a fuel line splice and about 30 minutes of my time.

[Kab449]

Propane fueled Onan Generator and a AGS system (automatic generator start). The generator will run at least 14 hours on 7 gallons of propane. The Lithium Battery systems may be the future but I’ll wait until they get all the kinks out.