New Sprinter Based RVs Reliable?

[Bud]

Originally Posted by Davydd

ChicagoTom cited an old article on NCV3 Sprinters (pre 2018 ) to statistically reason and Avanti never had a VS30 Sprinter (post 2019) to statistically reason with any experience. So much for that statistical reasoning.

You and/or avanti do not need to own anything "to statistically reason". One's personal sample size may or may not be meaningful, depends on the product and circumstances.

What would be interesting is IF your and avanti's samples were the opposite. If avanti had experienced good luck, would he be buying a Transit. If your luck had been like avanti's, would you have purchased another Sprinter.

Me, I would like to think that I would go with the universe of Sprinters and try to ignore my personal experience. Good luck with that Bud.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Bud

Me, I would like to think that I would go with the universe of Sprinters and try to ignore my personal experience. Good luck with that Bud.

Yes, exactly. That is why real science is done with double-blind studies.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

Yes, exactly. That is why real science is done with double-blind studies.

This is exactly the point of avoiding using most/all? statistical information on frequency of repair for serious and accurate reliability evaluation. Nearly all of the information they use in the collection of data is from individuals who know what they are driving (hopefully) so the blind part is totally gone. Add to it brand loyalty, bias due to how much you paid (spend more, like it more example), regional differences (road quality, weather), actual use patterns, care of use, and a whole bunch of other things gives you lots of uncontrolled variables.


I think the best information we can get is from discussion groups, forums, etc that are based on the same intended use that we will have, like this forum and manufacturer/model groups. Sure it is biased like all other sources, but at least some things are somewhat controlled. I also like to just observe places that are selling used vehicles of the same type. Craigslist is one of them that may give some insight as the sellers tend to list some important data points like age, mileage, location, repairs done, how it was used, etc. I can get a "feel" for what ones have more issues than others (in % of listings for the model not total number of issues) and what the issues are. A prime example of this, I think, is the Subaru issues with head gasket failures on some styles of their engines which routinely happens around 100K. A very large % of the engines of that style list that the head gaskets have been replaced if above 100K miles.


Bottom line for me is to not really trust much of what is said or surveyed about any given model of vehicle and just try to go enough places to get what I think is a reasonable evaluation of what I find out in digging around. If I find a recurrent trend for particular issue, I will research that particular item by itself and the try to find some good cause and effect information. The flap about early oil burning/rebuild needs in some Hondas is fairly recent example of that.

[Punkinhead]

Anecdotes aren't statistics. 3 people on a forum saying they've had the same problem get blown up in to a world ending crisis. My brother in law bought a new truck and a few people on a forum complaining about a front end problem has him afraid to drive it. He went to the dealer with his "I read on the internet..." story and the service writer told him he's never seen that problem. So my BIL decided the service writer must be lying to him. Thousands of people don't come to forums only to say, "Hey, another week went by with no problems." I don't even bother reading vehicle specific forums anymore. Just a bunch of chicken littles.

[Philip53]

Originally Posted by triflex

How about Timberline for diesel heating?

I installed the gasoline Timberline in my '21 conversion - so far so good! I decided against a separate fuel source for water and space heating, so went with the hydronic set up. And a larger battery bank (Lithium), than my previous Class C's.

And, decided to go with gas instead of diesel for a bit less complexity, initial cost and fuel costs.

[Boxster1971]

ChicagoTom's favored web site "MotorBiscuit" also has counter viewpoints.

Is the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter the Most Reliable Van?

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/is-the-...-reliable-van/

. . . their answer - YES.

[Bud]

Sprinter Reliability:

Two questions of 2 members, Davydd and avanti.

Please think about it: If your experience with your Sprinters had been the opposite, would you have purchased another or gone with a Transit for example.

Now that you have decided, was it simple, easy, quick to figure out?


Thank you.

Bud

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Punkinhead

Anecdotes aren't statistics.

That is completely true. But, it is quite possible to analyze anecdotes statistically:

You cannot estimate the absolute reliability of a vehicle based on user posts, because (as you suggest) there is inherent bias in who complains and when.

BUT, as I tried to explain above, you certainly can learn things from the ratio of various kinds of complaints. Unless you believe that there is something about emissions failures in particular that cause people to complain selectively about them but not about other issues, one can form a reasonable conclusion that diesel Sprinters exhibit a lot more emissions problems than other issues, which is all I ever claimed.

Originally Posted by Bud

Sprinter Reliability:

Two questions of 2 members, Davydd and avanti.

Please think about it: If your experience with your Sprinters had been the opposite, would you have purchased another or gone with a Transit for example.

Now that you have decided, was it simple, easy, quick to figure out?

I have already acknowledged the existence of sample bias, and yes, we are all subject to being misled by it. That said, though, I believe that in this case, the available evidence is so overwhelmingly obvious, I am pretty sure that I would avoid BlueTec diesels (NOT necessarily Sprinters, which I like a lot) even if I were buying my first vehicle. I believe in statistical thinking, but I don't really need it to conclude that the sky is blue.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by avanti

That is completely true. But, it is quite possible to analyze anecdotes statistically:

You cannot estimate the absolute reliability of a vehicle based on user posts, because (as you suggest) there is inherent bias in who complains and when.

BUT, as I tried to explain above, you certainly can learn things from the ratio of various kinds of complaints. Unless you believe that there is something about emissions failures in particular that cause people to complain selectively about them but not about other issues, one can form a reasonable conclusion that diesel Sprinters exhibit a lot more emissions problems than other issues, which is all I ever claimed.



I have already acknowledged the existence of sample bias, and yes, we are all subject to being misled by it. That said, though, I believe that in this case, the available evidence is so overwhelmingly obvious, I am pretty sure that I would avoid BlueTec diesels (NOT necessarily Sprinters, which I like a lot) even if I were buying my first vehicle. I believe in statistical thinking, but I don't really need it to conclude that the sky is blue.

Thank you.

Both you guys make this a fun forum. Enjoyed.

Bud

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

ChicagoTom's favored web site "MotorBiscuit" also has counter viewpoints.

Is the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter the Most Reliable Van?

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/is-the-...-reliable-van/

. . . their answer - YES.

I usually ignore this kind of cherry-picked opinion piece, since they don't typically represent actual evidence. But I clicked on this one. It is, um, interesting. Here is my gloss (emphasis added):

Is the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter the Most Reliable Van?
It is a good van.

That's good to hear (and I agree). But, is it reliable?

By looking at websites such as US News and World Report or Consumer Reports, we can see what the experts say about these common work vans.
Though US News and World Report hasn’t done a full review of the Sprinter since 2012, what the review has to say is still relevant.

Oh, 2012. That was two years after the introduction of BlueTec. Two
years after I bought my 2014, I was still on cloud nine.

US News and World Report’s review of the 2012 Sprinter shows a 4 out of 5 reliability score from JD Power.

Tertiary source (JD Power -> US News -> MotorBiscuit). No citation. I tried to track down the data, but failed.

Also, US News praises the Mercedes cargo van for having a wide range of options and an upscale interior. But a look at the endorsements US News displays from other publications shows that––at least in the 2012 model year––the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter is respected. Car and Driver, Consumer Guide, and Edmunds are all quoted in the US News review giving high praise to the Sprinter cargo van.

Lots of sources "praise" Sprinters. But, are they reliable?

Consumer Reports reliability and owner satisfaction ratings are spotty at best,

So, unlike US News, CR is "spotty". I wonder if that has anything to do with their conclusion.

but they can give us insight regardless. This is where we see some lower scores for the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van. Over the model years, we see mostly 2 out of 5 for reliability ratings of the Sprinter cargo van.

Ah! Data at last.

The 2015 Sprinter and 2016 Mercedes cargo van option both received 2 out of 5 owner satisfaction scores. But in 2017 we see a much improved 4 out of 5 rating. Plus, in 2020, the new Mercedes-Benz Sprinter cargo and passenger van gets a 3 out of 5 rating. So, while these scores aren’t great they aren’t terrible either. And––as with all vehicles––some years are better than others.

Oops, back to "customer satisfaction". This "reliability" thing is hard to focus on, apparently.

If we review the data on CarComplaints, we don’t see very many complaints posted from owners of the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter. There are only 11 complaints for the Sprinter van total. Compare that with 33 complaints on file for the Ford Transit, most of which are in relation to problems with the engine, and it’s safe to say the Mercedes van hasn’t caused much trouble.

Sprinters had 11 complaints, Transits had 33. You don't suppose that has anything to do with the fact that Transits outsell Sprinters by a factor of 3?!
Nah...

In the work van rating from AutoWise, The Mercedes Sprinter is ranked the number one work van. Not only does it make a statement and leave a good impression on clients, but it offers many configuration options.

More "customer satisfaction" and "configuration options".

It is hard to believe a vehicle isn’t the most reliable in its class with so many of them breaching the 200 and even 300 thousand mile mark on the odometer.

Yeah, hard to believe.

Being the Mercedes that is it, the Sprinter work van has many compelling features that make it a top choice among commercial buyers.

Can you say "non sequitur"?


OK, so let's summarize:
Is the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter the Most Reliable Van?

Data presented:
1) JD Powers is rumored to have once given it a score of 4/5.
2) Something called "CarComplaints" says it receives similar numbers of complaints per vehicle as the Transit.
2) Consumer Reports usually says Sprinter reliability 2/5.

Conclusion:
Sprinter is most reliable. Q.E.D.

[Toyman]

2 Sprinter based B's, 2 Promaster based B's, now have a Transit that I’m VERY happy with. My second choice would be a Promaster, except for the cockpit ergonomics, my last choice would be another Sprinter, the Star doesn’t impress me.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Bud

Sprinter Reliability:

Two questions of 2 members, Davydd and avanti.

Please think about it: If your experience with your Sprinters had been the opposite, would you have purchased another or gone with a Transit for example.

Now that you have decided, was it simple, easy, quick to figure out?


Thank you.

Bud

The point I was making is both ChicagoTom and Avanti examples and experiences were pre-2018 Sprinters and completely out of date. My experience with past Sprinters is I did not have DEF issues because I was being more diligent I guess. So that is a moot question for me. With the newer 2019+ Sprinters (4 years worth now) I would imagine you would have to be extremely stupid to ignore the info I outlined in the second post of this thread. DEF issues was the lead reply by Avanti in saying the DEF system is a disgrace. He might have been right 4 years ago.

If Mercedes Benz comes out with a 9 speed transmission and a gas 4 cylinder with more torque and horsepower than my 6 cyl. diesel in the future I might consider a 5th Sprinter.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The point I was making is both ChicagoTom and Avanti examples and experiences were pre-2018 Sprinters and completely out of date. My experience with past Sprinters is I did not have DEF issues because I was being more diligent I guess. So that is a moot question for me. With the newer 2019+ Sprinters (4 years worth now) I would imagine you would have to be extremely stupid to ignore the info I outlined in the second post of this thread. DEF issues was the lead reply by Avanti in saying the DEF system is a disgrace. He might have been right 4 years ago.

If Mercedes Benz comes out with a 9 speed transmission and a gas 4 cylinder with more torque and horsepower than my 6 cyl. diesel in the future I might consider a 5th Sprinter.

I was very diligent with my van as with all vehicles I have or had. I agree with your guess that being more diligent you had no issue with DEF, I agree, just a guess.

Failure of NOx sensors, failure of DEF heater, or luck of DEF level gauge on my 2013 Sprinter was just substandard engineering. Responsibility for these failures squarely land on substandard engineering not on customers without your level of diligence.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The point I was making is both ChicagoTom and Avanti examples and experiences were pre-2018 Sprinters and completely out of date. My experience with past Sprinters is I did not have DEF issues because I was being more diligent I guess. So that is a moot question for me. With the newer 2019+ Sprinters (4 years worth now) I would imagine you would have to be extremely stupid to ignore the info I outlined in the second post of this thread. DEF issues was the lead reply by Avanti in saying the DEF system is a disgrace. He might have been right 4 years ago.

Yeah, except that you DID have a failure of your DEF system:

https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...html#post97561

You rarely mention it and usually bury it with long, irrelevant screeds about how stupid one has to be to let their DEF tank go empty. Exactly ZERO of the issues I cite have anything to do with anybody being less "diligent" than you. I can assure you of that, at least in my case.

You DO understand that the def system has not changed in the VS30, right? Yes, you have a pretty digital gauge, but it is functionally identical. You have NO evidence that anything has been made more reliable. The recent class-action suit that you are so proud of was about emissions cheating, not reliability. Various components have been revised over and over again (some of them are up to V.6!). What reason do you have to believe that the VS30 has been made more reliable THIS time, when all the others have failed? As I have patiently pointed out already, these faults have historically taken years to surface. The VS30 is just getting to the age when (if it is like the NCV3) the problems become manifest. And, sure enough, the complaints are starting to appear.

It is not impossible that the VS30 will prove to be an improvement. I have no data. But, neither do you.

[Davydd]

I have driven 16,500 miles in a 2020 chassis Sprinter this year so far, have filled DEF twice for my data.

[Worsey]

I tend to be in the Avanti camp on this issue. I have a love/hate relationship with my Sprinter chassis 2015 RoadTrek Adventurous. I think the Sprinter is much better regarding driver/passenger ergonomics (seat comfort, driving position, ease of mobility to enter the coach, and "sitting up high") relative to other manufacturers. I really like the fuel economy and overall driving experience - I can log LONG driving days and not feel beat up. That said, I have had many costly repair issues which have soured my desire to own another Sprinter. I have experienced the failures most commonly cited - NOx sensors, DEF heaters, wheel speed sensors, brake sensors, phantom warning lights that sometimes resolve themselves, and I've had the dreaded 10 starts remaining issue. Some of these items were covered by warranty, some not. Regardless, I have spent thousands of dollars out of my own pocket. To complicate issues further - I am not retired. I have to take time off from work to address these problems, because (as many have experienced) the nearest Sprinter service center is 1.5 hours from home. I haven't had any luck finding a local mechanic that will touch the machine and/or that I would trust. In addition, ANY trip to the Mercedes Sprinter service center is extremely expensive/over-priced - the mark up on basic maintenance items is obnoxious, simply because it is a Mercedes.

Bottom line for me is I really LIKE the Sprinter, I just don't TRUST it. Since I am still working, I can't afford to be down for unknown days and not make it home while waiting for a repair. The specter of a mechanical failure is always lurking in the back of my mind, and that mild anxiety really strips some of my enjoyment from our trips.

That said, our next RV will be a Winnebago EKKO on the Transit chassis. That rig checks most of the boxes for us, and seems to be a near perfect fit for our current needs/wants. If the EKKO was only offered on a Sprinter chassis, I would take the leap of faith and cross my fingers that all goes well because it is such a compelling coach design. But to simply purchase another Class B (with similar specs/layout to our current van) on a Sprinter chassis, I would be hard pressed to jump on the Mercedes bandwagon again - there's just been too many hardships/inconveniences for me.

I know the EKKO has its own growing pains right now, but they have all been coach related. As a fairly capable DIY guy, I'm not afraid to tackle the potential for those problems. As long as I can TRUST the chassis is reliable to get me out and back home, then I am willing to try the Transit.

[Dreadnaught]

Originally Posted by triflex

Would you feel comfortable taking the Sprinter into rural Canada and Alaska? We intend to go back and forth from Florida to Alaska every year.

As you travel to and from Alaska through Canada, you will notice two things. No Mercedes dealerships. A Ford dealership in every town.

As for Alaska, there are precisely two shops to get service, both called Trailercraft. They are Freightliner dealers. Parts inventory is very limited (long wait times) and limited technicians (long wait times)

In short, I would not feel comfortable. We sold our Sprinter based ERA due to electrical gremlins. When a Sprinter is good, it’s very good. When it isn’t, it is super frustrating and expensive.

[Davydd]

We went to Alaska and back and all over Alaska in a Sprinter. It is an adventure in any RV. The only mishap we had was a non-Sprinter issue of a leaking propane regulator in the Yukon coming home after 10 weeks out. I got news for you any mishap with a Class B or any RV motorhome and you are up the creek.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Really, up a creek? You mean in Alaska?

No one wants to breakdown anywhere, but, unfortunately, even with the best maintenance schedule unexpected events can happen......

The problem is that there's not a really good network of Mercedes Benz dealerships who work on Sprinters and it's even more challenging to find an independent person who knows how to fix them .....

I've been very lucky. .. I've broken down on the road and I've been able to get my vehicle fixed and back up running normally.

Yes, I had a propane leak as well and the thing about that is before they could fix it... they had to burn off all the propane in the tank. The main valve on the tank was leaking and I needed both regulators replaced......

We have not been to Alaska, but, have heard many great things...

David, I know that you're a Sprinter enthusiast; I like the fuel economy and performance of the vehicle, but, unless you have deep pockets, it's not a great vehicle for everyone.. . it's expensive to maintain and repair.

[Snowy]

Originally Posted by Davydd

If Mercedes Benz comes out with a 9 speed transmission and a gas 4 cylinder with more torque and horsepower than my 6 cyl. diesel in the future I might consider a 5th Sprinter.

Are you suggesting that you might not consider a future sprinter if they do not come out with a "9 speed transmission and a gas 4 cylinder with more torque and horsepower?"

I think everyone who has disagreed with you here has stated that their primary problem with the Sprinter is the diesel exhaust system, and so they also would be more inclined to buy a Sprinter if it had a "9 speed transmission and a gas 4 cylinder with more torque and horsepower."