New RT Zion Link

[islandrog]

Still liking the SRT!

[mumkin]

I think that this is same length as the SRT...

I read a review of the "new 1500" Ram van... and he was pretty scathing about the handling. He said that it was sloppy and quite different from the 2500/3500. I hope that he just had a bad unit.

The more I see of this telescoping shower, the less I like it. It looks to me like it will be a nightmare of rattles... as if my 170 isn't bad enough in that area. I think the Sportsmobile set up makes much more sense. Just use a shower curtain for the top half.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by mumkin

The more I see of this telescoping shower, the less I like it. It looks to me like it will be a nightmare of rattles... as if my 170 isn't bad enough in that area. I think the Sportsmobile set up makes much more sense. Just use a shower curtain for the top half.

Yeah. I love the idea of a shower that collapses when not in use. As I have said before, I don't think the upfitters have scratched the surface of the potential for "morphing" interiors. But pulling this off would require a collaboration between a real designer and a mechanical engineer. This one was pretty clearly done by a carpenter. I'll give them a point for at least trying, though.

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by avanti

Yeah. I love the idea of a shower that collapses when not in use. As I have said before, I don't think the upfitters have scratched the surface of the potential for "morphing" interiors. But pulling this off would require a collaboration between a real designer and a mechanical engineer. This one was pretty clearly done by a carpenter. I'll give them a point for at least trying, though.

I totally agree with you, avanti. Overlapping space usage is the solution when it's well done. Safari Condo uses a questionable but very functional approach for their XL Plus vehicles (Sprinters and ProMasters). It's their under-the-bench collapsible shower/toilet.

see more at Ram - ProMaster XL PLUS

I'm not a fan of this solution, but a lot of customers love this "lofty" layout. I definitely prefer having less space and a separate toilet/shower.

As Steinbeck was saying : ...The center of the American home is not the hearth. It is the bathroom...

The excellent article published in PopSci in1967
John Steinbeck On Why 'Camping Is For The Birds' | Popular Science









The photos of the Zion Link taken by Sue Valentine at the Tampa show https://www.facebook.com/kampervanfu...type=3&theater

.

[avanti]

You can get clear plate glass that can be turned opaque electrically. I have fantasized about replacing the top half of our shower walls with that stuff and installing a big window in the shower. Normally, the walls would be transparent, so you would be able to see through to the window. To use the bathroom/shower, you flip a switch and the glass becomes opaque.

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by avanti

You can get clear plate glass that can be turned opaque electrically. I have fantasized about replacing the top half of our shower walls with that stuff and installing a big window in the shower. Normally, the walls would be transparent, so you would be able to see through to the window. To use the bathroom/shower, you flip a switch and the glass becomes opaque.

Yes a very cool feature!. I've seen it in commercial building, but never in an RV.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by mumkin

The more I see of this telescoping shower, the less I like it. It looks to me like it will be a nightmare of rattles... as if my 170 isn't bad enough in that area. I think the Sportsmobile set up makes much more sense. Just use a shower curtain for the top half.

Agree. Rattles and lots of seams for leaks and collecting crud. Plus an electric motor to operate everything. Not the KISS method. Rather a kludge, IMO.

[Gemlake]

The length of the van is only 17 feet 9 inches, so some sacrifices need to be made. But I would prefer something like the Adria Twin 540, which is the same length but has a private bath with aisle shower, rear bed and storage, and permanent dinette. Especially if the target audience is a single rver. `

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pcukedl7xog

[booster]

Originally Posted by Gemlake

The length of the van is only 17 feet 9 inches, so some sacrifices need to be made. But I would prefer something like the Adria Twin 540, which is the same length but has a private bath with aisle shower, rear bed and storage, and permanent dinette. Especially if the target audience is a single rver. `

That is pretty nice. What is the fascination with sink and stove under the same lid, though? You have almost no couterspace anyway and you can't use one or the other and gain counter on the other lid. We use our separate ones that way all the time as we never use both at the same time, and rarely ever use the stove.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by Gemlake

The length of the van is only 17 feet 9 inches, so some sacrifices need to be made. But I would prefer something like the Adria Twin 540, which is the same length but has a private bath with aisle shower, rear bed and storage, and permanent dinette. Especially if the target audience is a single rver. `

Too easy for RT. Why copy a nice, GOOD, practical, proven floor plan. They want the BEST. They can do BETTER!

Obviously, they never heard the design maxim "Best is the enemy of good"

[gregmchugh]

So, my take on it is they are trying to keep a certain set of design characteristics that have been successful for them over a long period and they don't want to take a risk of departing from what has been successful. In other words, it wouldn't be a Roadtrek if it was too different from what people are used to seeing. Not unusual for companies to get stuck in this mode if it has been successful in the past. It will take something drastic to get them to change...

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by Gemlake

The length of the van is only 17 feet 9 inches, so some sacrifices need to be made. But I would prefer something like the Adria Twin 540, which is the same length but has a private bath with aisle shower, rear bed and storage, and permanent dinette. Especially if the target audience is a single rver. `

True, Adria, and many other european manufacturers are offering very convincing conversions on the short Ducato/Promaster 18' (5.40m) and even the shorter 16' 5" (5m) chassis. Most of them are based on the popular layout (80% of the european van conversions) with the front dinette and the central enclosed shower/toilet that was first introduced by Adria. There's a lot to learn from the design of those very small campers. Apart from the industrial processes involved that implies standardization, what's interesting to see is that they still have to deal with cultural difference between countries that dictates different design choices and layouts. In the UK for example, the bigger the lounge, the better (because of their very sunny weather) and they insist to have a gas oven with grill, even in very small motorhomes.

See very different UK layouts in the Which Motorhome magazine showdown for (what they consider to be) medium campers

Youtube link
http://youtu.be/HuapTzCSIrg

[BobB]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Not unusual for companies to get stuck in this mode if it has been successful in the past. It will take something drastic to get them to change...

Usually, but unfortunately, "drastic" means a major financial crisis accompanied and/or a change in leadership. Easy to keep repeating, maybe make some minor iterations. The opposite is innovation. Doing something to change the market, a competitive differentiator. But innovation carries risk and risk mean having some failures. How else do you learn?

Companies known for innovation have their failures, but they also have rooms (probably warehouses) filled with ideas that never see the light of day.

But it definitely does not look like bringing products to market that don't work yet (EcoTrek) or rushing to show an unfinished idea, like the shower in the Link.

Just my take on all this.

[booster]

I have to agree with the stuck in the mud theories concerning Roadtrek, although to some extent I do prefer the older, more practical, less open, styles.

If they truly want to be innovative and move forward, their "engineering" partnership with Hymer should concentrate on design and quality, as has been mentioned by others. Not that all this is easy to do in today's market. By the time you do what seems to the current trends of huge bathroom, wide open spaces, etc, there is very little space left for the stuff you really need. It is no wonder that the B's used to 17-19' and now we see a lot of them at 24'. That said, it will be interesting to see how the push to go back smaller works out. The Roadtrek showing will be a good test if folks are willing to give some stuff up to go smaller, although that shower may scare everyone away.

Some of the old Dodges of various brands did a fantastic job of space utilization, but they used up a lot more of the interior volume on storage and function. They, obviously, would look less open, but probably had more storage and usability than many current styles. In these ways, they were probably more Euro than the current US built units.

[BobB]

Yes, it will be interesting to see how the market reacts to it. I know the 5.4m Promaster may be a challenge, but surprised they did not do a toilet w/ aisle shower. Adria Twin 540 does this. Most people use the toilet more than the shower anyway.

Photo of Adria Twin 540 - showing it for the toilet/aisle shower (which I think uses tambor door not a curtain), NOT the dinette, tranverse bed, and the too small galley.

[gregmchugh]

I do find it interesting that so many here seem to have such high expectations of Roadtrek and are of course disappointed when those expectations are not met. Roadtrek at least attempts to come up with some innovative features that are a clear stretch for their expertise and as you would expect in that case they have some issues that they will likely get past and come up with version 2 with their lessons learned from the first attempt. Who else besides ARV are even trying to get the lithium battery technology out there. I suspect the personalities involved from the Roadtrek side lead to a lot of the joy at bashing them with every miss step. Not saying that many of the critical comments are not deserved, they clearly could do better in a lot of fronts and I am not about to defend them very much myself, just wondering how Roadtrek became the prime whipping boy for so many here? Are they really as bad as one would gather from the typical comments in this forum?

[BobB]

Greg

You make some very good points about RT.

When I first found and joined the forum, it was to find out more about Class Bs, since I think we will eventually move up from our VW EVC, but not tomorrow. RT was (and to a certain degree still is) at the top of my list. I wanted a compressor fridge, a "reasonable" house battery bank, good systems; their construction and quality seemed a tad better than others, and, generally, they got high marks from customers. I was glad to see them start using the PM platform to get $ down.

All RVs, especially new ones, seem to have some problems. PM ignition issues, squeaky Travato cabinets, batteries not charging right. But I think the Lithium crisis - and their response to it - shocked me. I will root for them to resolve it and move on, but I still am hearing about customers not getting it fixed and no service.

Not including any trade-in/ sale of my EVC, I am looking at a $70-$90k investment in the future, if I buy new. I need to have trust in who I buy from. Trust that it all works, but I am realistic and know problems will come up. So i need trust that if something doesn't work, (1) someone listens and talks with me (2) they work on fixing it.

Are they really as bad as one would gather from the typical comments in this forum? Probably not, but they seem - to me - to be leading the pack. Time will tell.

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

just wondering how Roadtrek became the prime whipping boy for so many here? Are they really as bad as one would gather from the typical comments in this forum?

IMO, Roadtrek brought on a lot of the criticism themselves in how they were reacting to quality issues and even before the design fiascos. The designated hitter "consultants" were not recognized as such back then and were on the boards. When folks heard about new technology like the etrek, many were very excited and interested, and many of the most interested were technically competent and asked questions. What they got were rants and insults, including some very aggressive and nasty stuff from Jim Hamill, so yes, the personalities contribute. Those same issues continue through today, so many folks are skeptical, especially when they have multiple new product issues on top of the other stuff.

I think many of us hope the Roadtrek gets their act together, and may critique new stuff, but certainly don't think they shouldn't be trying to innovate. Improve the process and implementation of the innovations, absolutely. And, of course, take customer relations 101.

[gregmchugh]

I agree that customer relations is a big issue and I think their major problem at the moment. The technical issues will likely get resolved but they are going to have a long road to recover from their poor treatment of a bunch of customers who have written them off. Cannot really understand how they got into this mode treatment for customers but the reports continue daily of amazing lack of response customer problems in many cases. Of course you only hear about it on the Roadtrek Owners Group, everything is rosy in the other group.

You may have seen Mike Wendland's comment when Campskunk got reported to Facebook by someone for not using his real name and having his account and all his posts deleted. Mike made it clear that in his view it was surely someone from the Owners group who reported him.

Here is Mike's comment, once again showing his tact as an Ambassador for Roadtrek and pissing on a large group of owners...

-----------------
Mike Wendland‬

Folks...make no mistake... there are trolls from the other FB group...several of them people who ave been booted off this group...who are determined to make life for everyone else as miserable as their's. Several are here under false names. They are nasty, emotionally disturbed people. We do our best getting rid of them when they show up but then they do things like complain about Campskunk's name to get even. It's best to ignore tham. You can always spot their smug, condescending attitude when they post and our moderators do a good jib of removing them but sometimes they get through.

---------------

And if you are reading this, Campskunk, I can tell you I did not report you and agree that it was a crappy thing to do to you. Of course, I do think there was a little Karma involved since you have been lurking around and reporting traitors who are then kicked off of Mike's group. Sometimes what goes around, comes around...

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

I do find it interesting that so many here seem to have such high expectations of Roadtrek and are of course disappointed when those expectations are not met. Roadtrek at least attempts to come up with some innovative features that are a clear stretch for their expertise and as you would expect in that case they have some issues that they will likely get past and come up with version 2 with their lessons learned from the first attempt. Who else besides ARV are even trying to get the lithium battery technology out there. I suspect the personalities involved from the Roadtrek side lead to a lot of the joy at bashing them with every miss step. Not saying that many of the critical comments are not deserved, they clearly could do better in a lot of fronts and I am not about to defend them very much myself, just wondering how Roadtrek became the prime whipping boy for so many here? Are they really as bad as one would gather from the typical comments in this forum?

Actually, to answer your question, Pleasureway is doing it. And without any hiccups either. Their quality appears to be the same high level as it always has.