New Roadtrek RS E-Trek

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by booster

...........Odd, but true. It may just be that direct injection gas engine would be a better choice to run the big engine powered generator.............

Sure looks that way because of the emission controls on newer diesels. There might not be much info out there on idling gas engines though. There is at least one guy on the RT Yahoo Group who does idle his gas engine: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/roa ... sage/75469 and he also mentioned that gas engined police cruisers idle for for significant amounts of time.

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Sure looks that way because of the emission controls on newer diesels. There might not be much info out there on idling gas engines though. There is at least one guy on the RT Yahoo Group who does idle his gas engine: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/roa ... sage/75469 and he also mentioned that gas engined police cruisers idle for for significant amounts of time.

The police do idle for very long times sometimes. I think they have an idle speed bump up, too, but it probably more to get the alternator output up because of all their electronics.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Mike

Caveat emptor, anyone? I also agree with booster and markopolo that Roadtrek must know we have questions and concerns about how they came up with their numbers for all of this, and if the answers aren't forthcoming openly from the source, one has to wonder why? The DPF issue seems cut and dried. It's an MB part that wears out (or clogs) as a result of normal use. At different rates, based on patterns of use.

General question to Roadtrek, regarding the E-Trek, if we're wrong in our calculations/observations, please explain.

i reread Roadtrek release. they are very careful to say with the compressor cycling normally that time of night and not doing excessive cyccling.

i take this to mean the 9 coolest hours of night-probably maintaining 72 degree temp might last 9 hours-probably not using 100 degree temperatures.

i agrree there is no way those batteries can run AC for so long a period

[booster]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

i reread Roadtrek release. they are very careful to say with the compressor cycling normally that time of night and not doing excessive cyccling.

i take this to mean the 9 coolest hours of night-probably maintaining 72 degree temp might last 9 hours-probably not using 100 degree temperatures.

i agrree there is no way those batteries can run AC for so long a period

Yep, they have been hedging a bit lately on the verbage. Originally it was 9 hours continuous with the compressor at 100%, which it would come close to making, if nothing else was running, and you took the batteries totally flat. The video with blogger who was talking to the shop manager at Roadtrek made some really bold claims. Something like running everything and being able to go 10-12 hours, then recharge in half and hour. There is a link to it a few posts back, I think. As we have been saying, it sure would be nice if someone from Roadtrek would step up and explain the details. We may be way off on our calculations due to lack of details of the systems.

[Davydd]

One thing you have to consider, like everything battery, regardless of claims which are always the highest end possible optimum, is that battery systems degrade gradually with use.

But as I have stated before, with 100,000 miles on the road with a Sprinter B, I have rarely run my air-conditioning and have put 8.8 hours on my propane generator after 36,000 miles on my current B and about 24 hours over 61,000 miles in my previous B. At that, a great percentage of those hours were winter/monthly "exercise" hours on the generator. I have camped in both my Bs up to 5 straight days without much driving, the first with a single battery and the second B with two batteries. We went through California camping mostly in state and national parks and forests without hookups for two straight weeks. The driving during the day charges the batteries. We drove the Alaska Highway up and back and the Klondike and Cassiar Highways with few hookups this summer. That's why I think the E-trek is overkill and has no understanding of how people use Bs. Our modus of operandi is to seek an electrical hookup site about every 5th day as well as other catchup facilities like laundry, water, dump, etc. and stay in parks and forest as much as possible. If you need air-conditioning seek electrical hookup sites.

[markopolo]

Diesel heat and hot water noted on the RS E-Trek now: http://www.roadtrek.com/etrek.aspx

All this reserve power is stored in up to eight 6V AGM batteries (1600 amp. hours) and distributed directly to 12V lights and appliances and through a 5000W inverter to 110V appliances like the air conditioner, inductive stove, instant drinking water heater, convection/microwave oven and industry-leading Webasto diesel-powered combination water heater and furnace. The system features surge protection and power monitoring.

Previously it was noted as being a "comfort heater" ..........

All this reserve power is stored in up to eight 6V AGM batteries (1600 amp. hours) and distributed directly to 12V lights and appliances and through a 2500W inverter to 110V appliances like the air conditioner, inductive stove, instant drinking water heater, on-demand water heater for galley sink and bathroom, convection/microwave oven and comfort heater. The system features surge protection and power monitoring.

and a post on facebook by Jim previously noted a an electric quartz heater.............. I guess that heat source is gone now.

Originally Posted by markopolo

From FB

Diesel heat and hot water is more "mobile" than all electric heat for sure.

[Davydd]

Maybe Roadtrek got a little more ambitious about all electric than they should have. Diesel hydronic heat and hot water was introduced by Great West Van and Advanced RV over a year ago as well as lithium batteries and large inverters and solar. It appears to be getting down to copying those two companies with a bigger publicity hype.

I'm not sold on the multi bank of batteries they propose or the massive solar. It might work for someone wintering in Quartzite, AZ and staying put, but seems a total waste for normal Class B RV touring.

[markopolo]

I've been wonder about what mpg E-Trek owners should expect. The "apparent" mpg will be affected by:

1. extra load from by the under-the-hood belt driven generator
2. extra load on the alternator putting out max amps charging 8 agm batteries
3. diesel use for coach heating and hot water
4. extended idling

1 to 2 mpg maybe ? What do you think?

Diesel Sprinters with propane generators have a hidden MPG advantage over gas engined Class B's with gas generators. It's probably wasn't much, maybe .25 to .5 mpg depending how often you run the gas powered generator including monthly exercise for maintenance.

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

I've been wonder about what mpg E-Trek owners should expect. The "apparent" mpg will be affected by:

1. extra load from by the under-the-hood belt driven generator
2. extra load on the alternator putting out max amps charging 8 agm batteries
3. diesel use for coach heating and hot water
4. extended idling

1 to 2 mpg maybe ? What do you think?

Diesel Sprinters with propane generators have a hidden MPG advantage over gas engined Class B's with gas generators. It's probably wasn't much, maybe .25 to .5 mpg depending how often you run the gas powered generator including monthly exercise for maintenance.

A lot will depend on how much they are actually on the road being driven. Eventually the batteries will be full, so load will be near normal, won't need the heat while driving or hot water. If you move a lot, you won't be needing to run the engine at idle to charge batteries so it would taken out of the calculation. Probably a minor difference for that case .5-1.0 MPG maybe.

If you sat a bunch and idled the engine an hour a day (.5 gallon if at base idle, 1.0 at 1800rpm if that is needed), that is 7 gallons a week, so if you only went 100 miles in that time, it would totally kill the mileage with just that part of it.

As they say, nothing comes for free!

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Maybe Roadtrek got a little more ambitious about all electric than they should have. Diesel hydronic heat and hot water was introduced by Great West Van and Advanced RV over a year ago as well as lithium batteries and large inverters and solar. It appears to be getting down to copying those two companies with a bigger publicity hype.

I'm not sold on the multi bank of batteries they propose or the massive solar. It might work for someone wintering in Quartzite, AZ and staying put, but seems a total waste for normal Class B RV touring.

Seems they may have followed Boeing in that regard. The 787 has apparently had some quality control type "electrical issues" lately. Since going almost totally electric by design, they're having problems with things like fires, possibly due to overheating equipment, as well as lithium ion battery problems, according to sources following their string of recent mishaps.

[mlts22]

There are some technologies that are interesting, and others that just seem to be mainly tests to see if they are popular or not. A couple I'm curious about how they will fare in the marketplace:

1: The EFOY fuel cell. It isn't really a generator, but more of something to keep the house batteries from going kaput when running the furnace on a cold day. It is relatively silent. Combined with a propane furnace, it could allow a rig to be able to keep itself above freezing until it runs out of propane or the methanol in the EFOY container empties. This is a nice alternative to winterizing. Of course, there are two downsides of this. First, is the availability of methanol cells, which isn't that common. Second is cost, which is extremely high due to this being a relatively new technology in the US. If this were something that cost $2000 or so, it would be useful for boondocking, but right now, the best alternative would be to use a LP gas generator and an Onan EnergyCommand panel which can automatically turn on the generator and charge the batteries when they get low, then turn back off when things are up to par (one can't really charge to 100% with a generator unless it runs for a long time, but getting to 90% is doable.) With the current cost, I'd say one is far better off with the EC controller and an Onan genset.

2: Solar. I wish all rigs would have some sort of solar panel, combined with a multi-stage charging controller that can desulfate. This is a no-brainer, inexpensive, and more of a "why not" type of thing, assuming there is real estate on the roof.

3: Using the engine as a generator with a beefy alternator. There is nothing wrong with this, as the big rigs do this. However, if I had to put wear and tear on an engine, I much rather do it on a $4000 generator than a $40,000 diesel engine. One DPF filter replacement almost will pay for a LP gas generator, and definitely would pay for a pair of Honda twins. For being able to power up goodies while on the road, definitely. As a replacement for a generator when running the A/C at night, not really.

4: All electric. Call me crazy, but I don't think propane is all that bad. It had a very good energy to weight and energy to volume ratio, far better than the juice stored in conventional (or lithium) batteries. I do like the idea of running all the electrical goodies from a battery bank and a beefy inverter, then being able to choose how to get power back to the batteries (either via a LP gas generator, running the engine, shore power, or solar), but I would say that propane is a very effective method of heating. I'm glad someone is testing this technology out. If one travels from hookups to hookups, then all electric would make sense, since there would be no need to have to seek out propane on a cold night.

[Mike]

Propane is also useful as a coolant when used in evaporator refrigerators, like the Dometics. It's also useful as a means of preparing hot food. It's convenient, relatively abundant, relatively inexpensive to purchase, and in almost all applications, the equipment and RV systems that use it, are also relatively inexpensive, when compared to most of the all electric technology we're seeing emerging these days. Probably more bang for the buck.

[markopolo]

The E-trek concept will probably quickly continue to evolve. RT has already switched to diesel furnace and hot water from the first mentioned all electric heat and hot water. The next evolution might be the adding a propane or diesel generator. You'd probably have to go with the lithium batteries because of weight issues. This would be an expensive Class B but maybe there is a market for it. I'll call it the Roadtrek Ultimate! The overlapping systems would be somewhat redundant but you could run the Air Conditioner overnight off the batteries etc. Lose the under-the-hood mounted generator in light of the potential acceleration of DPF, EGR and engine wear problems.

Am I describing an Advanced-RV Class B? Are they offering lithium batteries and a generator?

Edit: answering my own question - Yes, lithium batteries and 3.6 kW Onan (not 2.8 kW) in the Advanced-RV Ocean One

Sorry to take this off the E-trek topic, maybe we can get it back....

[booster]

The e-trek blog guy has posted an update on his use, and put a link to it on the Yahoo board. Said was off grid for 30 hours using AC at least some and had 12.7 volts showing on the inverter input. Since that is a full battery, I assume the solar was holding up the voltage and charging the batteries at that time. It would be interesting to see what his batteries were actually at. Doesn't the e-trek have a monitor?

[markopolo]

Saw it, read it, first thought was "I wish someone like booster had bought one then we'd have real data to look at". I look forward to more reports though.

link: http://roadtreking.com/shakedown-cru...-to-my-new-rv/

12.7 volts from solar if in daylight (not night time) is not even a maintenance charge. Maybe the solar controller cuts out periodically. I noticed that behavior on mine: http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...p=12263#p12263 but have yet to spend the time to figure out if that is normal.

[markopolo]

There's a photo of this AIMS inverter in the blog post referenced above. http://www.aimscorp.net/5000-watt-pure- ... r-12-volt/

Where is / what was the Outback inverter on the table in the promo videos ? ? ? I'm really confused now.....

If RT is using AIMS products then maybe they used the AIMS Automatic Rapid 3 Way Automatic Transfer Switch http://www.aimscorp.net/transfer-swi...omatic-30-amp/

[youtube:2fjuqiwx]pxEzDa1z-C0[/youtube:2fjuqiwx]

[Mike]

If I were designing my own RV from scratch, it would have a comfortable bed/couch at the rear, and a large toilet/shower/bath area at midships, and the water, propane, and AC/DC electric and battery systems to support them. They would be my main focus. I would have to add the quietest generator I could find, and try to position it as far away from the bed area as possible. If it had to be mounted to the rear, the sleeping and bathroom areas could be repositioned, accordingly. The 2 things I would want my RV to provide would be a good night's sleep, and a bathroom in the morning.
After that, the best low power consumption energy efficient coach A/C system money could buy (possibly like the one marko uses? not going to get you ice cold, but doesn't require a ton of batteries to run for short periods of time on an inverter).
I would add sufficient conventional AGM 12V or 6V batteries to support a large inverter system, and a roof covered in solar panels to help keep the batteries from losing too much ground, too quickly during the day.
Entertainment and food preparation and storage systems would be added last. If I need to add storage compartments and closet space, I'm probably bringing too much stuff with me.

[markopolo]

Maybe two 5,000 or 6,000 BTU air conditioners instead of one 11,000 BTU. Use both with the generator running to get the coach temperature under control then switch to one air conditioner on batteries to maintain the cool quietly overnight. There wouldn't be too much difference in weight.

My 5,000 BTU worked ok last summer on PEI but a summer day there is a winter day anywhere south of Tampa. Plus my van has few windows and has much less space inside to cool down compared to larger Sprinter B's.

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Saw it, read it, first thought was "I wish someone like booster had bought one then we'd have real data to look at". I look forward to more reports though.

link: http://roadtreking.com/shakedown-cru...-to-my-new-rv/

12.7 volts from solar if in daylight (not night time) is not even a maintenance charge. Maybe the solar controller cuts out periodically. I noticed that behavior on mine: http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...p=12263#p12263 but have yet to spend the time to figure out if that is normal.

The 12.7 volts is odd, as it is too high to be just the batteries after that long, and too low to be on charge. My guess, and it is only a guess as I have very little experience with solar controllers, is that he has so much battery, and they were way down on charge, so that the solar maxed out on current and couldn't generate enough current to raise the voltage higher than 12.7. If the batteries were at 12.2 by themselves, they would be charging at the max current the solar could provide at 12.7 volts. It would have been interesting to see what his solar controller was saying.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Maybe two 5,000 or 6,000 BTU air conditioners instead of one 11,000 BTU. Use both with the generator running to get the coach temperature under control then switch to one air conditioner on batteries to maintain the cool quietly overnight. There wouldn't be too much difference in weight.

My 5,000 BTU worked ok last summer on PEI but a summer day there is a winter day anywhere south of Tampa. Plus my van has few windows and has much less space inside to cool down compared to larger Sprinter B's.

Your van would be closer to ours in terms of interior volume. I like the twin A/C unit's idea, going as small as possible for the lowest overall energy draw as possible, to do as you suggest, use both to start, to get internal temps down, then cut one out, to try maintain it while running off an inverter, assuming less cooling is required during overnight down time, when the sun isn't a factor beating down on the van.
I guess how often A/C is required would depend on where you tend to travel. We rarely go to Florida any more, preferring the western mountains and areas like Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona, during the winter months up here, although even that is subject to change. We are usually here during the coldest months, which is just our habit because we are limited by other factors, including that the winters in the areas out west we prefer, aren't much different than conditions at home. The other factor is how long we can stay away. Currently our longest workable trips don't exceed 3 weeks. If that situation changes in the future, we might need more, or less, cooling.