New Roadtrek RS E-Trek

[Fastpaddler1]

I would have serious concerns about running my diesel at a commercial RV park. Haven't seen one do it anywhere--not any kind of rv. Idling any vehicle where I live is limited to 3 minutes. I camped at Gabriola Island( Provincial park--no services), and although I was allowed 4 hours to charge my house battery from the generator, I had a couple of tree huggers grumbling about the loss of peace and quiet. One might get away with it at Walmart or a similar parking lot. Except for the high useage for aircon, solar sure would do just about any other chores in an RV. So, it has a future. Running diesel engines to charge stuff--It really gives me pause...

[casd]

Yes Yes - I installed high idle - all excited - Started the engine and running at 1500 RPM I noticed no increase in the voltage increase to the batteries , I was in Las Vegas and ran batteries (10 - 6 volt 210 amp batteries ) down to 11 (10.9) volts , 2 hours plus of driving back to cali brought them up in good shape, I haven't had time to look into this further but want to reinstall original 750 watt inverter\charger and run off engine DC power. The question is will it supply enough power to run the charger part. The reason I would do this is for a true measurement . I would have my 3000 watt Magnum connected to generator circuit as the Roadtrek is setup.

Why
Start your generator and run the 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter\charger - 3 stage - starts at 125 amps in to batteries , In 40 minutes or less your to absorb then float , that's below or at 11 volts , if you have the generator auto-start at a higher rate 30 minutes or less would work. except at night of coarse

This project is going to take months to figure out (I will have to disconnect everything and add one item at a time) but I am not liking what I see from the Magnum, a 11 - 17 amp draw for re fridge and other items, I turned off fridge tonight and only a 3 amp drop, something else is drawing power, way too much, maybe the inverter is using the most ? I have same situation with solar controller - Mid-nite 200 , great controller has software for data but it takes power to run, after figuring things out I feel a simple mppt controller for 40 - 50 amps will be more efficient

just for kicks I turned off Magnum 3000 , ran an old 400 watt Xantrex I had sitting around and everything else running off 12 volts including re fridge. hardly any energy used over 24 hours but I was eliminating the unknown , I feel the 750 watt will be perfect for next test.

there is a reason an etrek has 2 generators. you figure the wear and tear on your sprinter engine, loss of fuel mileage, expensive to repair plus under warranty ?? I found a chart somewhere where somebody figured out loss in fuel mileage, surprising

That noisier less expensive to replace diesel generator may be the answer, park in a rest area no issues with noise , Casino no issues around truckers
otherwise choose a park with AC once a week your all set, If your driving miles your problems are solved charging the batteries also

My experience so far

Chuck
SS Agile
Customized
SD CA

Originally Posted by Mike

Sort of re-reading this thread and I was wondering, again, has anyone listened to a Sprinter engine at either regular or high idle, and/or used an audio meter to compare the noise level from an idling diesel engine with that of an average generator, either gas/diesel/propane? I'm sure the generator is the louder of the two, but I was thinking it's got to be fairly noisy running a 6 cylinder diesel engine to generate enough power to recharge whatever your battery bank requires. Those that have rejected the idea of running a generator in a campground because it's too noisy may actually create more noise without a generator. I guess you would run it during "generator allowed" times, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were complaints from adjacent campers ("how long are you going to be running that thing???")in the campground scenario we usually reference. Unless you could go for a short drive when the need arose? We have run our generator (after moving well out of the campground area) for about 15-20 minutes to brew coffee. How long will the Sprinter have to run at high idle to replenish a few hundred amp hours, for example?

[Mike]

Sounds like the all electric class B RV isn't as easy or ready for prime time as some have made it sound.
I think there are many on here that are interested in your particular setup, as an E-Trek with it's standard equipment hardware, and the tweaks you've made or considered so far, and what you're learning as you go.
It's interesting and will certainly help others.

[bikerbill]

Last I checked on the Roadtrek eTrek the 2nd generator is a 24 volt model. They were using a 24v inverter system so the batteries were in a 24v configuration.

Also, in PA, it is NOT illegal to idle non-commercial diesels for more than 5 minutes. The law specifically states COMMERCIAL use but most every sign I have seen states no diesel idling for more than 5 minutes. But that is not what the law says.

[Davydd]

My V6 Sprinter engine is quite a bit quieter at high idle than the Onan generator. From my touring experience and B habits I don't really anticipate utilizing high idle to charge batteries. Shore power at the many state parks and private campgrounds periodically will be enough. Then solar and then just our touring habits and B use of driving almost daily should be enough. I see a lot of redundancy.

[The Knitted Brow]

Read all 30 pages of this thread and it was very helpful. Because of that, and the fact I am naïve with regard to battery as a power source, I thought the group here could answer a few questions for me as I get ready to purchase an E-Trek style Roadtrek (RT), although not sure which model yet.

We purchased a new 2006 190 V as a climate-controlled kennel when our Boxer could no longer hike with us yet we still wanted to bring him along but leave him in a climate-controlled environment. Because of that, unlike Davydd, I need to run the A/C a whole lot more than once or twice a year. In order to do so I must use the Onan generator for that purpose. Unfortunately, after 144,800 miles and 1,150 hours on the generator, I still cannot rely on the generator when I need it most, to keep the inside cool for our dogs when we step out.

That being the reason I am interested in the E-trek option, to eliminate the unreliable generator. Initially RT caught my attention with their claims, which a number of you in this thread debunked and many of us appreciate , even if you are “armchair engineers” your analysis and comments are much appreciated.

Not that we need to leave the dogs alone for 9hrs in the A/C, RT’s initial claims, but 2-3hrs would be great. Please correct me if I am wrong, what I have taken away is that the A/C could run continuously for at least 4hrs from the battery bank (AGM) alone, which RT claims is 1600Ah although really 800Ah, or 400Ah, due to the batteries used are 6V and not 12V, or ?24V.

Now, RT’s multiple systems being 6V, 12V or 24V is irrelevant to me because my intent is to substitute RT’s 1600Ah 6V AGM battery bank with two 12V Lithium batteries, each 600Ah for a total of 1200Ah at 12V. (http://www.lithionicsbattery.com/pdf/la ... TRL400.pdf)

Yes, I know, very expensive, however, for our dogs priceless, if it will keep them cool for at least 4hrs, the extra hour or two as a buffer, as they are rarely alone for more than 3hrs.

My questions to the group, because I value what you have contributed to this thread.
1. Will my substitution of the batteries by themselves serve my intent, at least 4hrs of continuous A/C? Yes, "alone" as I intent to not include the solar panels (See #3 below). The 4hrs of A/C being in general as I understand there are many variables that affect A/C’s operation, like temperature and humidity.
2. If the vehicle’s alternator is sufficient to recharge the battery bank, why would I need a generator, Onan or engine-mounted?
3. Another intent is to exclude the solar panels because for those 1-3hrs that the RT is parked and the A/C is on the solar panel’s contribution to recharging the batteries is insignificant. Especially since we rarely stay in one place, except at night to sleep and when the sun is not available. In our case, while driving the alternator will charge the batteries, again, no need for a generator of any kind. At nighttime, if we need the A/C we can run the RT's engine to support the batteries. However, correct me if I am wrong and should reconsider the solar panels, the generator and/or even changing from AGM to Lithium.

Thanks for your advice, much appreciated.

[Mike]

If your dogs are priceless, and you've got the budgetary ability to add redundant alternatives, like solar and an Onan generator, in case the batteries aren't cooperating for some reason, I would spend the extra $$$.

[markopolo]

or a diesel genset if no propane onboard

---------------------------------------------------------

First, I'd contact Roadtrek to see if they'd build your E-Trek specifically with lithium batteries in mind. the monitoring, charging and optimum storage requirements are a little different than lead acid batteries.

The summation of this topic is "your results will vary". That's it. Think summer in Florida or summer in Oregon. Very different cooling requirements, very different results.

Worst case (my opinion) - use 150 amp hrs continous as your A/C draw. (need other opinions here)

800ah x 80% discharge = 640ah
640ah / 150ah = 4 hours approx.

Assuming you're not running other things. I don't know what the fridge draws for example.

You might have the right idea re: solar - specifically with lithium batteries. I remember reading that lithium batteries last longer if stored at 80% state of charge. You need to confirm that. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, just that I remember reading that. If that is right then solar keeping lithium batteries at 100% would not be good.

You make a good point about the solar input not being needed with your style of use as the input is minimal. Maybe find out what the fridge draws per day (average).

The idea of having a second alternator or engine generator is to facilitate recharging of a large battery bank in time for the next discharge cycle. If you use 600ah per day but can only put back 400ah per day you'll run out of juice eventually. I don't think the stock alternator alone will meet your needs.

Sounds to me like you have a good understanding already. You already know your requirements (approx) so it is much easier to have the system designed to meet that.

[Davydd]

We are getting the lithium batteries and solar along with a second engine alternator and M-B high idle option with our new B order. We will not have propane or an Onan generator. We will be working out the details and capacities but will be able to run an air conditioner while stopped for lunch, events or hiking. I requested up to 3 hours battery AC. If a low battery condition happens we will have engine auto-start to recharge the batteries. We sometimes travel with our cat and will do more so with our new setup. I consider my requests rather redundant knowing our travel history over 9 years and 123,000 miles in a B. I have more faith in Advanced RV addressing this than Roadtrek, plus I'll get vastly more quality overall. No matter who you go with for such systems it gets stratosophically expensive and when you get that high why sacrifice quality? I suppose I should get myself back to my Advancing Alvar thread with this.

[booster]

I agree with Marko, you have a good understanding of what is going on, and that with kind of usages you are talking about, you would need a tour bus to come close to having enough space for solar that would do much good.

I also like Mike's statement about redundancy. The generator may be your current weak point, a new one may or may not be more reliable, but never 100%, so that is not a complete solution. But, an electrical solution won't be 100% either, as those components fail, too.

If you want to be totally safe, you would need backup for everything, including the air conditioner, so that is pretty unrealistic.

The e-trek may not be the best choice in this case, if you want to be redundant and as safe as possible. The similar CS Adventurous allows you to have 400AH of batteries (which you could up with lithium, I think), and a propane generator. Also can get the engine generator to be able to refill the batteries faster while driving like the e-trek. I would think you could get 2-3 hours off the batteries, in that configuration.

I could see this scenario.

Primary air conditioning off of the propane generator, which would also be maintaining and filling the batteries to some extent. If the generator fails, it switches to batteries and inverter to keep the air conditioning running. A generator alarm and satellite phone would be able to inform you of the problem and give you time to get back before major dog issues. Add a temperature sensor to the phone alert and you would be able to call animal control, or police to get to the van before the dog has issues, if everything goes bad. You might even be able to get satellite starting capability in the van, so the van AC would be able to cool it down.

I like the failure feedback to you, with actionable options, because even if you get all the power stuff as good as they can be, and even redundant, the air conditioner can still quit, blow a breaker, whatever. I think the alerting would be as close to 100% reliable as you would be able to find, and if you could start the van the same way, that also would be very reliable.

on edit--Davyyd's comment on van auto start for low batteries probably could also be tied into temperature, and do both, and be a very good solution.

[Mike]

While we're talking hypothetical, are there going to be scenarios where auto starting the engine might be undesirable at best, or dangerous at worst? I'll assume there there are safeguards in place.
What other mitigating factors might interfere with the suggested automation solutions, I wonder?

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by The Knitted Brow

Read all 30 pages of this thread and it was very helpful. Because of that, and the fact I am naïve with regard to battery as a power source, I thought the group here could answer a few questions for me as I get ready to purchase an E-Trek style Roadtrek (RT), although not sure which model yet.

We purchased a new 2006 190 V as a climate-controlled kennel when our Boxer could no longer hike with us yet we still wanted to bring him along but leave him in a climate-controlled environment. Because of that, unlike Davydd, I need to run the A/C a whole lot more than once or twice a year. In order to do so I must use the Onan generator for that purpose. Unfortunately, after 144,800 miles and 1,150 hours on the generator, I still cannot rely on the generator when I need it most, to keep the inside cool for our dogs when we step out.

That being the reason I am interested in the E-trek option, to eliminate the unreliable generator. Initially RT caught my attention with their claims, which a number of you in this thread debunked and many of us appreciate , even if you are “armchair engineers” your analysis and comments are much appreciated.

Not that we need to leave the dogs alone for 9hrs in the A/C, RT’s initial claims, but 2-3hrs would be great. Please correct me if I am wrong, what I have taken away is that the A/C could run continuously for at least 4hrs from the battery bank (AGM) alone, which RT claims is 1600Ah although really 800Ah, or 400Ah, due to the batteries used are 6V and not 12V, or ?24V.

Now, RT’s multiple systems being 6V, 12V or 24V is irrelevant to me because my intent is to substitute RT’s 1600Ah 6V AGM battery bank with two 12V Lithium batteries, each 600Ah for a total of 1200Ah at 12V. (http://www.lithionicsbattery.com/pdf/la ... TRL400.pdf)

Yes, I know, very expensive, however, for our dogs priceless, if it will keep them cool for at least 4hrs, the extra hour or two as a buffer, as they are rarely alone for more than 3hrs.

My questions to the group, because I value what you have contributed to this thread.
1. Will my substitution of the batteries by themselves serve my intent, at least 4hrs of continuous A/C? Yes, "alone" as I intent to not include the solar panels (See #3 below). The 4hrs of A/C being in general as I understand there are many variables that affect A/C’s operation, like temperature and humidity.
2. If the vehicle’s alternator is sufficient to recharge the battery bank, why would I need a generator, Onan or engine-mounted?
3. Another intent is to exclude the solar panels because for those 1-3hrs that the RT is parked and the A/C is on the solar panel’s contribution to recharging the batteries is insignificant. Especially since we rarely stay in one place, except at night to sleep and when the sun is not available. In our case, while driving the alternator will charge the batteries, again, no need for a generator of any kind. At nighttime, if we need the A/C we can run the RT's engine to support the batteries. However, correct me if I am wrong and should reconsider the solar panels, the generator and/or even changing from AGM to Lithium.

Thanks for your advice, much appreciated.

when you say -step out-for how long and how far-maybe a temperature alarm pager just in case. How about a 12 volt swamp cooler device-just for the dogs. seems to me there is NO guaranteed with rv. with todays technology battery power is still the weak link.

you can run an air conditioner with large inverter but you need a gazillion batteries for any substantial length of time. i would be shocked if you could get 4 hours of air conditioner on battery-more likely 1 hour at best.

[bikerbill]

I have experience with batteries and inverters running air conditioners. We sold our 16 year old Prevost bus last year and downsized to a Class B. Some years ago we increased the 2 inverters in the bus from 2-3000 watt to 2-4000 watt inverters. We added 2 switches that would allow us to chose any 2 of the 3 roof airs. Never did run 2 solely on inverter, but we did on occasion run 1 on inverter overnight. One thing I would recommend is to let the fan run all the time and only have the compressor kick in when cooling is needed. Allowed for more restful sleep. Also allowed us to run 2 while driving as the 24 volt 270 amp RV alternator charged a battery bank of 6-8D batteries. When we did run on inverter only at night, the batteries never were pulled down low enough in voltage to auto-start the generator. (Dry camping in "quiet hours" required no-generator running.) This system was changed out for us probably 9 years ago and was trouble free. Sure we had a much larger battery bank, but it did work. And it also supplied the electric for the residential home sized refrigerator too.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by bikerbill

I have experience with batteries and inverters running air conditioners. We sold our 16 year old Prevost bus last year and downsized to a Class B. Some years ago we increased the 2 inverters in the bus from 2-3000 watt to 2-4000 watt inverters. We added 2 switches that would allow us to chose any 2 of the 3 roof airs. Never did run 2 solely on inverter, but we did on occasion run 1 on inverter overnight. One thing I would recommend is to let the fan run all the time and only have the compressor kick in when cooling is needed. Allowed for more restful sleep. Also allowed us to run 2 while driving as the 24 volt 270 amp RV alternator charged a battery bank of 6-8D batteries. When we did run on inverter only at night, the batteries never were pulled down low enough in voltage to auto-start the generator. (Dry camping in "quiet hours" required no-generator running.) This system was changed out for us probably 9 years ago and was trouble free. Sure we had a much larger battery bank, but it did work. And it also supplied the electric for the residential home sized refrigerator too.

the key phrase was 'sure we had a much larger battery bank'. 6 8D batteries-Yowza

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Mike

While we're talking hypothetical, are there going to be scenarios where auto starting the engine might be undesirable at best, or dangerous at worst? I'll assume there there are safeguards in place.
What other mitigating factors might interfere with the suggested automation solutions, I wonder?

Mike,

On the Advanced RV the safeguards are simple. The autostart is keyless with the doors locked. However, if someone did get inside the van and tried to engage the transmission the engine would shut off. Also, I understand the engine would shut off if the hood was lifted which in theory can't happen unless a latch inside is sprung first. Lastly, autostart will only run for two hours and then shut off. It is suppose to be controlled by the Silverleaf controller and via smartphone if you have wifi, and being computer and electrical there is always danger of failure. Since it is Silverleaf controlled I suppose it could be programmed as Booster suggested to start when temperature reached a programmed high. It would have to start the AC as well. One might think that possible but I don't recall that as being a feature mentioned, asked or discussed with Advanced RV.

I'm starting to understand simple math. My Dometic 15,000 BTU air conditioner is going to draw 150 amps. With 400 amp hours of lithium-ion battery I would have 320 amps draw down at 80%. That gives me two hours of AC at best if the batteries were fully charged at start. Autostart of the diesel engine, after low battery detection, theoretically would keep the AC running an additional two hours. Without autostart but idling the engine up to the maximum 3 hours I would theoretically add another hour of AC for a total of 5 hours. I could boost to 7 batteries but could never get 9 hours as Roadtrek claimed in my estimation. Four AGM batteries would be get you a max of 3 hours in all combinations and maybe 4 hours with with 7 or 8 batteries. Then Booster has brought up the issue in other threads of how are you going to restore that much charge in the batteries, especially in a given amount of time available before the next time you need the capacity? I am looking at this in practical terms that one could stretch capacity in theory one time but not day in and day out. Maybe one would do it for a lunch stop over with a pet in the B on a 90 degree day but would be smarter to just do take out. Our plan is to leave our cat at home if we think we might anticipate these conditions. That is what a sister-in-law is for.

[bikerbill]

And Davydd's calculations are with the ac running the compressor full-time It would have to be awful hot for the thermostat to require the AC compressor ON for the total time. I would think the compressor would cycle sometimes thus lower the amperage draw considerably.

[Davydd]

You can't count on that. If it is 100F outside that AC is probably going to stay on almost constantly. The poorly insulated Bs don't hold their temps very long. In watching the Roadtrek video it is apparent Roadtreks are not insulated, if at all, very well. If it is 80F outside you may be right, but then I doubt I would be running an AC at that temperature. Also, everytime an AC comes on isn't there a heavier draw initially? If so, I have no idea how that would factor in. I know the cycle business is what Roadtrek initially tried to argue for 9 hours after they were questioned about it.

There is another factor that has to be addressed. Batteries don't stay efficient forever. Every cycle costs them discharge and recharge efficiency. I think if you read Booster's comments about his system that there are a lot of variables that are hard to account for. It kind of makes you want to err or the less optimistic side.

I'm not finding much real life experience with a Roadtrek E-Trek other than vague testimonials on this. Anyone got any intelligent links?

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Davydd

On the Advanced RV the safeguards are simple. The autostart is keyless with the doors locked. However, if someone did get inside the van and tried to engage the transmission the engine would shut off. Also, I understand the engine would shut off if the hood was lifted which in theory can't happen unless a latch inside is sprung first. Lastly, autostart will only run for two hours and then shut off. It is suppose to be controlled by the Silverleaf controller and via smartphone if you have wifi, and being computer and electrical there is always danger of failure. Since it is Silverleaf controlled I suppose it could be programmed as Booster suggested to start when temperature reached a programmed high. It would have to start the AC as well. One might think that possible but I don't recall that as being a feature mentioned, asked or discussed with Advanced RV.

Davydd,
Interesting. I think most after market remote starter/alarm systems (at least my NuStart does) have similar safeguards in them. Keyless auto-starting implies reliance on the chassis anti-theft system to immobilize the vehicle (no keys = no driving) while the auto-start sequence is running, and most remote starter systems also have a "no-auto-start" fail safe when the hood is up, to keep the engine from turning over during routine servicing of the vehicle. So, nothing new there, really.

As for the capability to also start the A/C, after the engine has been auto-started, Onan, I believe, and AM Solar has had some sort of solution available for a while now, that can be installed, that does it, so I would imagine there must be a similar setup available, particularly with the Silverleaf(?) computer system onboard. I would ask A-RV about it, just out of curiosity.
firehawk335 was the member who posted his setup automated setup a few years ago (parts and expertise apparently supplied by AM Solar) in this thread,
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1695
and it suggests that his Onan EC-30 generator control triggers the generator startup based on the A/C starting up first, while his RV is running solely on batteries. There is also a Samlex battery guard involved in the automation process that auto-starts stuff. It sounds pretty simple, even to me, and there has to be an A-RV solution, that could emulate it.

Originally Posted by Davydd

Then Booster has brought up the issue in other threads of how are you going to restore that much charge in the batteries, especially in a given amount of time available before the next time you need the capacity? I am looking at this in practical terms that one could stretch capacity in theory one time but not day in and day out. Maybe one would do it for a lunch stop over with a pet in the B on a 90 degree day but would be smarter to just do take out. Our plan is to leave our cat at home if we think we might anticipate these conditions. That is what a sister-in-law is for.

True. The issue with running large draws off of a large capacity battery bank has almost exclusively been how to restore the used portion efficiently and quickly, before the next period of draw. I think Markopolo actually brought it up several years ago in response to another poster's question about how many batteries would he need to run his A/C in the desert for a few hours. The bottom line (back then, before some of the technology improvements we have now) was that the battery bank could be expanded, but the time to recharge with the hardware back then (and even now) would be the hard part. Can't find the thread, but it was a while back, maybe 5-6 years ago.

[gerrym51]

I have a question about the rv air conditioner/inverter/battery banks.

as i understand it the amount of amps running-say 12-and the amount of amps at start up - most ac's around 60 amps.

as far as discharging your batteries-are you better off battery bank wise to have AC not cycle but run continuosly.

does the AC use the start up amps every time it cycle? say in an hour-this is just an example- the AC cycles 4 times expending 60 amps each time-are you better setting it not to cycle at all.

this is not an issue when plugged in but could be with inverter/batteries.

Just would like to know

[Arlo]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I'm not finding much real life experience with a Roadtrek E-Trek other than vague testimonials on this. Anyone got any intelligent links?

I own a 2013 E-Trek (my first RV) but rarely use the AC. An hour here and there while having lunch on the road or to keep the dog cool while we are in a park visitor center, etc. No surprise that there's no problem with that kind of use. Like Davydd, I do my best to avoid situations where using the AC is required. More relevant to the current discussion, I recently talked with the owner (retired engineer) of a 2014 CS Adventurous with the E-Trek package who said that, with fully-charged batteries, his AC lasted for 5 hours before the low-battery warning on the inverter activated. This was a purposeful test to see how close he would get to RT's claims. My understanding is that the compressor was running but other major appliances were off.

I'm still a lurker/learner, but the 5-hour outcome seems roughly consistent with 12v 800ah capacity and a draw of 150a. Thanks to all for providing stimulating food for thought and opportunities for learning. The E-Trek has served me well so far, but I'm loving the discussions of Davydd's next ride!