MSRP Negotiations

[billhirst]

I am working to special order a Midwest Automotive Designs 2019 Passage through a local dealer. I have an MSRP from MAD and an offer from the dealer. The offer discounts the MSRP 5.8%. From previous experience buying four other rv’s, I know 15-20% seems reasonable. The salesman is telling me MAD does not overinflate their MSRP so there is little room to negotiate. Seems hard to believe they would deviate from the rest of the market practice. The dealer also is low balling my 2015 Airstream Flying Cloud 28T and 2017 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4x4 trade in package. I’ve researched what’s on this forum regarding MSRP discounts. Does anyone have any related recent buying experience? In particular, thoughts or dealings regarding Midwest Automotive? Many thanks.

[booster]

You may want to look at this site, as they have a bunch of Midwest stuff and have been selling them for quite some time.

https://www.lakeregionrvs.com/defaul...tive%20designs

If you click on the the pic of the van in the list, the page that comes up should show you list and offered price. I assume you could also do a bit better than the offered price. The first van looks to be offered at about 20% off.

[billhirst]

Great reference site. Sure looks like 20% reduction off MSRP for all units. I’m sure when I show this to the dealer, I’ll hear it’s because it’s the end of the model year! Seems like a similar discount for a new model year order that won’t sit on their lot would be possible. Thanks again.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by billhirst

I am working to special order a Midwest Automotive Designs 2019 Passage through a local dealer. I have an MSRP from MAD and an offer from the dealer. The offer discounts the MSRP 5.8%. From previous experience buying four other rv’s, I know 15-20% seems reasonable. The salesman is telling me MAD does not overinflate their MSRP so there is little room to negotiate. Seems hard to believe they would deviate from the rest of the market practice. The dealer also is low balling my 2015 Airstream Flying Cloud 28T and 2017 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4x4 trade in package. I’ve researched what’s on this forum regarding MSRP discounts. Does anyone have any related recent buying experience? In particular, thoughts or dealings regarding Midwest Automotive? Many thanks.

I looked at a lithium equipped Midwest and a Coachmen Galleria side by side a few months ago and they were similar in build quality which was darn good except for the cabinetry in which the Galleria was the winner. I would out-the-door price both of them. I don't know what discounts from MSRP are available for Midwest. MHSRV sells Gallerias for 25 - 29% discount. If your interest is in the lithium and/or 4WD options it might be worth waiting a while until supply meets demand.

[wincrasher]

If you're wanting a Sprinter, I'd hold off until the Era is introduced with the Volta lithium system. It's superior in every way to the Xantrax system that Coachmen is using.

Era has seen many improvements on the interior, and should be able to house the largest Volta battery without issue - 12kw-h!

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

If you're wanting a Sprinter, I'd hold off until the Era is introduced with the Volta lithium system. It's superior in every way to the Xantrax system that Coachmen is using.

Era has seen many improvements on the interior, and should be able to house the largest Volta battery without issue - 12kw-h!

Would you also delay until the build is on the later generation Sprinter?

With respect to charging parameters, the Volta system is superior to the Xantrex system. Battery AH is a little higher with the Voltrex and at 48 Volts recharging is certainly faster, but both systems are hands above anything else available and I think that for practical purposes either setup would satisfy even power hungry boondockers. Undoubtedly Mercedes would prefer to see the Voltas on their Srinters because of the decrease in engine idle run time required for battery recharging. The Xantrex inverter/charger looks very well designed and the abllity to wirelessly monitor and program it is a real plus. What does Volta use for the inverter/charger and can it communicate wirelessly like the Xantrex?

[booster]

IMO, the 48 volt alternator and charging system, that won't heat cycle and charges much faster, plus the smaller wires and less heat in the equipment is a very big deal.

Volta is using Sensata inverters and chargers, IIRC, which are really Magnums. They are very good pieces, and I would rate them higher than the Xantrex, but others may not. Things like wireless mean very little to me, as hardwired is just fine, and the Magnum chargers with the right remote have built in battery monitor capability, so lots of experience.

[wincrasher]

Since the Magnum is a networked device, there may be the possibility to add a wireless dongle to the mix. Not sure, but not really a deal breaker for me.

I'd be more interested in a bluetooth dongle for the solar controller. I've been spoiled by my Victron Blue controller and the monitoring and data logging I've been able to do on my phone & laptop.

The battery capacity of the Volta over the Xantrax system is not minor. The Xantrax is using the 600 AH Lithionics battery - that's 480 ah-540ah depending on how you set your limits (80-90 SOC). The Volta battery ends up being over 800 ah of usable capacity. The battery is the 10kw-h model - but WGO is marketing it as 8700 ah useable. Also, a little birdy told me the box has room for another 3 kw module bringing your total over 12 kw.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

The battery capacity of the Volta over the Xantrax system is not minor. The Xantrax is using the 600 AH Lithionics battery - that's 480 ah-540ah depending on how you set your limits (80-90 SOC). The Volta battery ends up being over 800 ah of usable capacity. The battery is the 10kw-h model - but WGO is marketing it as 8700 ah useable. Also, a little birdy told me the box has room for another 3 kw module bringing your total over 12 kw.

Lithionics said they will supply any ah capacity desired in 160ah increments in either single or split modules so for DIY builders, with regard to ah capacity, there is potentially parity with Pure/Volta. But space limitations makes it unlikely that Coachmen or MidWest would let the buyer opt for any capacity beyond 540-600 ah.

[wincrasher]

Yes, Lithionics can provide modules of various sizes and their BMS allows daisy chaining their batteries. That's often how they handle it in boats (they are big in marine applications) where there are odd, disjointed spaces for storing batteries.

But Coachmen's design scheme (to reduce costs I imagine) is to place the batteries inside the coach. This limits how big they will go with capacity, as you have competing needs for other equipment as well as storage space. The 600 AH lithium block is tightly wedged in where they put it.

The Volta scheme is to put the battery in an insulated and thermally controlled box underneath the van (where a generator would normally reside). They also seem to be having a one-size box, as the one supplied to WGO has room for an additional module in it.

One could argue which design scheme is better - they each have their plusses and minuses. What I think is harder to get past is going 48 volts. It solves a multitude of issues and certainly has some performance benefits.

[billhirst]

The dealer increased the MSRP discount to almost 15% and increased the trade in values for the Airstream and Sierra. So, we agreed on the deal. The build time is 16 weeks. Meanwhile, the discussion on lithium battery systems gave me pause, but I decided the Xantrex system will more than meet my needs. And, if you wait for the latest technology for anything, you end up with nothing. Anyhow, by next fall I should have some feedback on howgozit with the MAD Passage with the “freedom” package. Thanks for all the good comments.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

The battery capacity of the Volta over the Xantrax system is not minor. The Xantrax is using the 600 AH Lithionics battery - that's 480 ah-540ah depending on how you set your limits (80-90 SOC). The Volta battery ends up being over 800 ah of usable capacity. The battery is the 10kw-h model - but WGO is marketing it as 8700 ah useable. Also, a little birdy told me the box has room for another 3 kw module bringing your total over 12 kw.

Volta claims that their battery design (chemistry?} is superior to mainstream lithiums. What's your take on that?

[Djette1]

We recently bough a Midwest Automotive Weekender - Just in March. I would think the negotiation process is about the same. Just be smart, savvy and stick to your guns. Find comps, ask around. We held out a got a better price, but our was an new but older model on the lot. You may have a harder time with a customer order. I do know that they recently dropped their MSRP about ~25K, but it was rather inflated to begin with. Now there is a difference between the dealer and the manufacturer. Which are you really referring to. We had pros and cons dealing with both. Where are you located?

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Volta claims that their battery design (chemistry?} is superior to mainstream lithiums. What's your take on that?

I'm finding not sticking to the thread subject rather irritating because I answered this question in another off subject thread which I cannot recollect now. Anyway, an amp hour is an amp hour. The difference from mainstream lithiums, what ever that is, probably LiFePo4 batteries, is the Volta batteries are a different chemistry (NCC I think) and they claim they can go down to a -40 deg. F. without damage vs. -4 deg. F. for my batteries. That's significant. -40 deg. F. is the same as AGMs. However all lithium batteries are subjected to no charging colder that 32 deg. F. The Volta system charges at least 2X times my batteries. That is not because of the batteries but the 48v system.

The Lithiumwerks Valence batteries are LiFeMgPo4 and can go down to -40 deg. F. without damage as well. They have an internal BMS for each battery in a type 24 or 27 case. The type 27s have a 138ah capacity.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The difference from mainstream lithiums, what ever that is, probably LiFePo4 batteries, is the Volta batteries are a different chemistry (NCC I think) and they claim they can go down to a -40 deg. F. without damage vs. -4 deg. F. for my batteries. That's significant. -40 deg. F. is the same as AGMs.

In terms of freezing points, theoretically the Volta battery and an AGM have similar freezing temperatures. But practically, isn't it more in favor of the Volta considering that it's unlikely that the AGM will conveniently be in a full state of charge when it's subjected to a brutal cold spell and consequently may have a freezing point significantly less than -40F? By comparison, whatever the freezing point of lithiums, isn't that temperature largely independent of their state of charge?

[wincrasher]

LOL. That is amazing!

But I doubt my van will ever see 0F, let alone -40F. Cold is not my thing baby!

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

LOL. That is amazing!

But I doubt my van will ever see 0F, let alone -40F. Cold is not my thing baby!

Oh yeah???? Check this out, particularly the places where you might think you could never see such temps:

Coldest ever in each state:

50.*Hawaii, 12*on May 17, 1979 at Mauna Kea Observatory 111 on the Big Island

49.*Florida, -2*on Feb. 13, 1899 at Tallahassee

48.*Louisiana, -16*on Feb. 13, 1899 at Minden

46.*Georgia, -17*on Jan. 27, 1940 at CCC Fire Camp F-16 (near Beatum)

46.*Delaware, -17*on Jan. 17, 1893 at Millsboro

44.*Mississippi,-19*on Jan. 30 1966 at Corinth

44.*South Carolina, -19*on Jan. 21, 1985 at Caesars Head

43.*Texas, -23*at Seminole on Feb. 8, 1933

42.*Alabama, -27*on Jan. 30, 1966 at New Market

41.*Rhode Island, -28*on Jan. 11, 1942 at Wood River Junction

40.*Arkansas, -29*on Feb. 13, 1905 at Gravette

39.*Virginia, -30*on Jan. 21, 1985 at Mountain Lake Biological Station in Pembroke

38.*Oklahoma, -31*on Feb. 10, 2011 at Nowata

36.*Tennessee, -32*on Dec. 30, 1917 at Mountain City

36.*Connecticut, -32*on Jan. 22, 1961 at Coventry

34.*New Jersey, -34*on Jan. 5, 1904 at River Vale

34.*North Carolina, -34*on Jan. 21, 1985 at Mt. Mitchell

33.*Massachusetts, -35*on Jan. 12, 1981 at Chester

31.*Indiana, -36*on Jan. 19, 1994 at New Whiteland

31.*Illinois, -36*on Jan 5. 1999 at Congerville

29.*West Virginia, -37*on Dec. 30, 1917 at Lewisburg

29.*Kentucky, -37*on Jan. 19, 1994 at Shelbyville

28.*Ohio, -39*on Feb. 10, 1899 at Milligan

24.*Kansas, -40 on Feb. 13 1905 at Lebanon

24.*Missouri, -40*on Feb. 13, 1905 at Warsaw

24.*Maryland, -40*on Jan. 13, 1912 at Oakland

24.*Arizona, -40*on Jan. 7, 1971 at Hawley Lake

23.*Pennsylvania, -42*on Jan. 5, 1904 at Smethport

22.*California, -45*on Jan. 20, 1937 at Boca

20.*Nebraska, -47*on Dec. 22, 1989 at Oshkosh

20.*Iowa, -47*on Feb. 3, 1996 at Elkader

19.*Washington, -48*on Dec. 30, 1968 at Winthrop and at Mazama

13.*Utah, -50*on Jan. 5, 1913 at East Portal

13.*Vermont, -50*on Dec. 30, 1933 at Bloomfield

13.*Nevada, -50*on Jan. 8, 1937 at San Jacinto

13.*New Mexico, -50*on Feb. 1, 1951 at Gavilan

13.*Maine, -50*on Jan. 9, 2009 at Big Black River (near Saint Pamphile on the Canada border)

13.*New Hampshire, -50*on Jan. 22, 1985 at Mount Washington

12.*Michigan, -51*on Feb. 9, 1934 at Vanderbilt

11.*New York, -52*on Feb. 18, 1979 at Old Forge

10.*Oregon, -54*on Feb. 10, 1933 at Seneca

9.*Wisconsin, -55*on Feb. 4, 1996 at Couderay

8.*South Dakota, -58*on Feb. 17, 1936 at McIntosh

5.*North Dakota, -60*on Feb. 15, 1936 at Parshall

5.*Idaho, -60*on Jan. 18, 1943 at Island Park

5.*Minnesota, -60*on Feb. 2, 1996 at Tower 2S near Lake Vermilion

4.*Colorado, -61*on Feb. 1, 1985 at Maybell

3.*Wyoming, -66 on Feb. 9, 1933 at Riverside Ranger station in Yellowstone

2.*Montana, -70*on Jan. 20, 1954 at Rogers Pass

1.*Alaska, -80*on Jan. 23, 1971 at Prospect Creek

All data gathered by the*State Climate Extremes Committee. In case of a tie within a state, most recent data was used

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Oh yeah???? Check this out, particularly the places where you might think you could never see such temps:

Coldest ever in each state:

50.*Hawaii, 12*on May 17, 1979 at Mauna Kea Observatory 111 on the Big Island

...

The Mauna Kea Observatory is at 4,200 meter

At that height, you will find ice and snow in Africa too.

ps. not saying you are wrong; just pointing out the State Climate Extremes Committee's data.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

LOL. That is amazing!

But I doubt my van will ever see 0F, let alone -40F. Cold is not my thing baby!

I overnight camped in Gallup, NM at a Cracker Barrel when the temperature got down to 0 deg. F. My lowest temperature experienced at my home in Minnesota was -43 deg. F.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

In terms of freezing points, theoretically the Volta battery and an AGM have similar freezing temperatures. But practically, isn't it more in favor of the Volta considering that it's unlikely that the AGM will conveniently be in a full state of charge when it's subjected to a brutal cold spell and consequently may have a freezing point significantly less than -40F? By comparison, whatever the freezing point of lithiums, isn't that temperature largely independent of their state of charge?

Those are published numbers. The details can be debated but the point is AGMs are not necessarily superior. Any battery subjected to cold temperatures is not good. However, because lithiums can’t be charged when battery temperatures go below freezing they are more likely to have a built in heating protection and not subject to low temperatures. My batteries stay above 41 deg. F at all times. The core battery temperature to get down below freezing would have to have a sustained ambient temperature of around the lower 20s.

I am undecided on my next van batteries if I get on between the Volta system and Lithiumwerks Valence batteries (LiFeMgPo4) that also can go down to -40. Advanced RV will be offering the Valence batteries but I don’t think they have installed them in a customer’s van yet. Lots of testing and system design yet.