MOTORCYCLES - who does?

[Flashman]

Originally Posted by Mike

Q1: Wouldn't the seller (in Ontario) have to provide you with a current UVIP prior to you buying
that "fixer upper"? You would know what it's legal status is from that, or are motorcycles different?

Well, you know what the enforcement mechanism for the UVIP requirement is? .... that the buyer has to present it to get the paperwork transferred... this pretty much means that for under $1000 and for as-is no seller bothers getting it... if you insist, they'll just blow you off... though yah, you could pay for it yourself prior to sale completing to check it out. However, if you've got a missing paperwork deally, you probably have to drag the seller to the MTO to get it.

[Mike]

Hi Flashman,
As far as I know, In Ontario the UVIP MUST be presented by the seller to a potential buyer.
It also includes a bill of sale form which must be signed and presented to transfer ownership,
among other things. I think Bob Rae made it a requirement back in the early '90s, but I could be
wrong.
Spousal sales may be exempt, and it mentions some other possible exemptions, but the general rule
is, it is a requirement to sell a used vehicle in Ontario.
The legal regulations for buying and selling a used vehicle in Ontario, including what the seller
must do and what the buyer must do, are all described in detail on this webpage......
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/ ... used.shtml

If people are buying/selling used cars where you live without them, they're breaking the law, and
unless the local Service Ontario Vehicle Licence Issuing agents are also breaking the law, you can't
do what you're talking about legally.
Maybe I've misunderstood what you wrote? Probably, it happens a lot.

[AZ ADVenturist]

Man, You guys Up There really know how to complicate matters (& confuse Me).

In the States - We never(well hardly ever) buy a motor vehicle without Proper documentation/title/ paper work.
It may be simpler to buy in States & license/register then smuggle into Canada. I know Montana, New Mex. & Ariz
& maybe North Dak.are all pretty easy to register a vehicle.
Here is an example of the IDEAL & over priced CT110 on C/L in Phx:

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/mcy/2956263122.html

[Mike]

Originally Posted by AZ ADVenturist

Man, You guys Up There really know how to complicate matters (& confuse Me).

Some of us do. Some of us would have preferred we didn't, but were overruled by folks who
kept democratically electing those people who they thought had the answers to their problems.
It is one of our weaknesses. Up here, the squeaky wheels always seem to get the lion's share
of the political grease, no matter how dumb the original complaint is. It's what we use in place
of precedent setting frivolous litigation, since our courts are so backlogged with normal cases,
there's no time to hear crazy $$$$M lawsuits for McD's coffee that's actually hot, or Winnebagos
with faulty cruise controls.
Oh yeah, and we also have government run healthcare up here.
Try to guess how well that works.
Clue: It's run (more or less) by government bureaucrats.
Caveat: These are my thoughts/opinions on the subject, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
of others who live in my country. They were born largely of personal experiences over several decades.
Peace.

[Flashman]

Originally Posted by Mike

Hi Flashman,
As far as I know, In Ontario the UVIP MUST be presented by the seller to a potential buyer.
It also includes a bill of sale form which must be signed and presented to transfer ownership,
among other things. I think Bob Rae made it a requirement back in the early '90s, but I could be
wrong.
Spousal sales may be exempt, and it mentions some other possible exemptions, but the general rule
is, it is a requirement to sell a used vehicle in Ontario.
The legal regulations for buying and selling a used vehicle in Ontario, including what the seller
must do and what the buyer must do, are all described in detail on this webpage......
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/ ... used.shtml

If people are buying/selling used cars where you live without them, they're breaking the law, and
unless the local Service Ontario Vehicle Licence Issuing agents are also breaking the law, you can't
do what you're talking about legally.
Maybe I've misunderstood what you wrote? Probably, it happens a lot.

I understand all that, but what I'm saying is, that enforcement is ONLY against the buyer... sure the dealers comply.. private sellers, on "as-is" sales, forget it, especially when they're not presenting it as a street vehicle, as in the case of these bikes which have offroad uses so often haven't been licensed for years. If you're bored one night, start phoning kijiji ads for sub $1000 cars, and ask them on the phone to read details off the UVIP...

They pretty much know this happens, hence the FAQ entry..

"I already bought my car. Why do I need a UVIP?

By law, a UVIP is required to transfer ownership of an Ontario registered vehicle sold through private sale."

If you want to waste 6 months, and hundreds of gallons of gas looking for a cheap car, you could insist on seeing UVIP, pointing out every time that it's against the law to be selling a car without it... that will get you nothing but a pissed off seller... they won't bother calling you back when they've got it... they won't answer your calls, or will tell you it's sold... or they will say sure, my $500 car is now $520... give me the cash now and you can see the UVIP tomorrow...

I am pretty sure about 80% of sub $1000 car sales on Kijiji or anywhere else are "illegal" in this sense. To say it can't happen, is the same as to say it's impossible to get killed by a drunk or speeding driver, because DUI and speeding are illegal.... but MTO don't care, they get their $20 anyway...

I think the bill of sale thing in the package is an optional extra for convenience, all you need is the signed over ownership, and to HAVE the UVIP whether the seller has ever touched it or not .... and if you have no other bill of sale, you'll pay book value tax.

What they should do, is you go to Service Ontario, say "I bought this have the ownership, but no UVIP, they didn't give me one" is they should then charge the $20 against the previous owners license like a traffic ticket or toll road fee, plus a $20 fine or something... THEN we might end up with a system where all sellers did actually have the UVIP.

[Flashman]

BTW part of the reason that buyers don't refuse to buy, is that sellers of cheaper cars with UVIPS get very firm on price, as in "I advertised it at $1500, and had to pay $20 for this damn stupid backdoor taxation thing, so I'm getting $1500 for it" whereas buyers can haggle a lot more effectively if the stupid thing is never brought up... like walk off with the $500 car for $350 or the $1500 one for $1000 even.

Edit: thing is though, you can still refuse to register it in your name if you see the UVIP has a large lien on it, kinda disown it, take your $350 deal to Seaway Salvage, weigh it in for $300 and swallow the $50(+$20) loss. So there is still that "protection" of a sort.

[Mike]

Huh?

[AZ ADVenturist]

Originally Posted by Mike

Huh?

Way to confusing for me too. & probably Off topic by now. I'll sit this one out for a while. R.

[Flashman]

Yeah, well it's bad enough for cheap cars, but you can usually avoid getting burned because very few people sell cars that haven't been licensed for road use fairly recently, the thing with bikes is they are easy to store away for years or use off-road, but new title brands came in in the last couple of years to mark VINs/ownerships with IRREPARABLE brands when they've had any accidents, so the VINs can't be used on stolen bikes, but it means previously minor accidents that are recorded might get upgraded to IRREPARABLE when the paperwork is renewed, particularly if it has been stored or used off road since the claim...

So, bringing it back to bikes, it means that although there's a bunch of CT90/100s around for $500-1500, I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole in Ontario, when I want one that's licensable, making the only choices in them, the pristine, currently registered ones the sellers want $3000 or so for. Where I'm thinking there must be some choice in a Lifan or something that would do the job for that.

Edit: Some insight on the Ontario can of worms as regards bikes.. http://www.onmotorcycle.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=649

[AZ ADVenturist]

We have just returned to to the good ol' USSA from a great tour up North (B.C., Yukon, Alaska).
I thought it was interesting (to me, anyway) - the type of motorcycles we saw up North.
The only ones we saw on the Cassiar Hwy were Dual Sport & dirt oriented - mostly BMW, KTM, Honda & Kawasaki along with 2 new Yamaha Super Te'ne're's. No Harley! Then coming back on the Alaska Hiway - again lots of BMW GSs, KTM Adventures, KLRs. A few GoldWings and a smattering of brave souls on Hardly Davidsons. BTW - even in Canada the Harley riders are so insecure & desperate for attention that they must make as much noise as possible only to annoy all the rest of us normal, well adjusted people. Ric. (a BMW owner/rider)

[Mike]

Originally Posted by AZ ADVenturist

A few GoldWings and a smattering of brave souls on Hardly Davidsons. BTW - even in Canada the Harley riders are so insecure & desperate for attention that they must make as much noise as possible only to annoy all the rest of us normal, well adjusted people. Ric. (a BMW owner/rider)

One of the (many) noise related reasons we moved further west. Our previous locale was the closest thing to Harley Heaven I have ever known. Sturgis would have been jealous.

[Cubey]

I am probably going to be taking along a 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 scooter with me. It will help offset the 10-12mpg of the van with it's 90mpg economy for times when I'm stopped for a while and can legally leave the van parked someplace all day, whether it be at a campground/RV park, city park, or a paid all-day parking lot. Very useful for times in cities and towns I want to explore during good weather without breaking the bank. I want to take a bicycle as well, however. I may end up selling the scooter eventually if I get in good enough condition again from riding the bicycle. *lol*