Midwest Designs Sprinter 4x4 In-Depth Review - Mike Mas

[booster]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Not sure which article you're referring to however my article is 100% accurate in every detail and took over a year to compile. All the "facts" are backed up by most every lithium manufacturing company, Mercedes, vendors, installers, actual users and most important myself!

You're free to accept it or move on, regretfully I didn't see any of your writings on lithium or extended diesel idling when I was researching my article, perhaps I missed them or it's simply "chatter" and does not exist!

Thanks Mike .

You need to read the posts on the link Avanti provided, I think. I also thought there were lots of errors in the article, which was the first on you posted on this forum, IIRC.

[oilman]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Not sure which article you're referring to however my article is 100% accurate in every detail and took over a year to compile. All the "facts" are backed up by most every lithium manufacturing company, Mercedes, vendors, installers, actual users and most important myself!

You're free to accept it or move on, regretfully I didn't see any of your writings on lithium or extended diesel idling when I was researching my article, perhaps I missed them or it's simply "chatter" and does not exist!

Thanks Mike .

Perhaps when you did your research you should have spent some time here where the real no b.s. experts are, you might have actually learned something useful.

Exactly where do you get your expert info from? It reads like some nonsense from a roadtrek brochure.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Thanks for the reply - it would be painful and expensive to upgrade an existing coach to Volta's system just for the fact its 48 volts. The biggest problem is you would be forced to include a 2nd alternator where on a 12 volt lithium upgrade you could use your stock alternator. Not to be misinterpreted, I'm not finding anything wrong with a Volta 48 volt system, they work great and charge faster, but there are some disadvantages as you would lose your ability to install a less expensive inverter / charger some with far more capability than a Volta unit.

The beauty of installing a 12v lithium system is you can use your stock alternator since its "Free" so when driving to a new location, its topping off the battery. Or you can charge from your inverter / charger or your generator.

Mike

Mike, you seem to confirm what I've thought since the word etrek was first used. It was and mostly still is about ac although lithium will rule down the road. It is about how much, how often the van's engine will be used for charging.

- No ac use, no big amount of amp hours needed

- ac with shore power, no big amount of amp hours needed

- ac with batteries with recharge from van's engine 3 times a year, 12 volt lithium system

- ac with batteries with recharge from van's engine 75 times a year, Volta

Have I got that about right?

Bud

[Davydd]

You would have to do a lot of driving every day or run a propane Onan generator for several hours if you don’t have a second alternator you lambasted if you need to run air conditioning overnight. You might try to write position papers after a year’s experience with the systems instead of putting out Google research and manufacturer’s pap.

[jrobe]

At Sportsmobile they charge $2000 more for loud and obnoxious Onan propane generator hanging too low under the van compared to a virtually maintenance free 2nd alternator that is able to charge my battery bank with pretty minimal daily driving. Of course it also frees up space under the van for a spare tire so it doesn't have to be carried on a rear rack at more expense.

I wouldn't touch this guys propane generator system with a 10 foot pole. In fact, I would prefer to put a box on the back and carry a small, quiet and efficient Honda generator although I wouldn't do that either if I had the option of a 2nd alternator.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by jrobe

At Sportsmobile they charge $2000 more for loud and obnoxious Onan propane generator hanging too low under the van compared to a virtually maintenance free 2nd alternator that is able to charge my battery bank with pretty minimal daily driving. Of course it also frees up space under the van for a spare tire so it doesn't have to be carried on a rear rack at more expense. I wouldn't touch this guys propane generator system with a 10 foot pole.

You would need a much longer pole than 10 feet.

[rogue]

A volta system runs $10-15k for a 800-1000amp system?

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by booster

Mike, you are entitled to your opinion, but in my opinion using any kind of reference to thermostat setting in stating AC run time is borderline useless in the real world.

Certainly, it could be said that the energy use would be higher at cooler settings at any current conditions, but you would no way know what the actual use was unless you tested both settings right then without them changing during the testing, and the conditions won't even stay the same for long enough to do the test, much less for conditions all over the country and over all the times of year.

As I said, you can have your own opinion, but I think you will be misleading a lot of readers by using that metric.

Booster I really appreciate your reply's and thoughts however the thermostat setting has "Everything" to do with the longevity of a lithium battery, and can even double your "run time" from one charge. In fact its a proven fact raising your thermostat at home will save you cash.

Thanks Mike

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/thermostats

https://www.achrnews.com/articles/94...ficant-savings

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by jrobe

At Sportsmobile they charge $2000 more for loud and obnoxious Onan propane generator hanging too low under the van compared to a virtually maintenance free 2nd alternator that is able to charge my battery bank with pretty minimal daily driving. Of course it also frees up space under the van for a spare tire so it doesn't have to be carried on a rear rack at more expense.

I wouldn't touch this guys propane generator system with a 10 foot pole. In fact, I would prefer to put a box on the back and carry a small, quiet and efficient Honda generator although I wouldn't do that either if I had the option of a 2nd alternator.

You're way off track on the generator noise, in fact the generator is more quiet than idling the engine at 1600 rpm.

There's certainly major problems with 2nd alternators 95% failure from heat and bearings plus they all hang down below the engine in salt spray during winter and can easily (and have many times) strike a curb. There's a reason that 99.9% of every RV on the road has a generator. I've used them for 40 years and never had a complaint.

If you're happy tugging around a Honda Gen, dealing with wires and plugging it in and out and carrying and funneling in dangerous gasoline with the worries of someone stealing it then fine, but its primitive thinking.

I highly suggest you read my article on lithium verses generators to brush up on some real facts regarding propane generators and their many advantages.

http://www.rotory.com/sprinter/lithium/

Thanks Mike

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by Davydd

You would have to do a lot of driving every day or run a propane Onan generator for several hours if you don’t have a second alternator you lambasted if you need to run air conditioning overnight. You might try to write position papers after a year’s experience with the systems instead of putting out Google research and manufacturer’s pap.

Davydd,

I've been building lithium powered military drones since 1995 long before you or anyone in an RV even knew what lithium was. I'm talking about drones which have a 12 foot rotor span and carry 250 lb payloads not toy drones you shoot pictures with.

Rotory

I highly suggest you read my article on lithium verses generators to brush up on some real facts regarding propane generators and their many advantages. My article took a year to compile by actual meetings and conversations with most every lithium manufacture, vendors and users, its all 100% factual in every respect.

http://www.rotory.com/sprinter/lithium/

Thanks Mike

[booster]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Booster I really appreciate your reply's and thoughts however the thermostat setting has "Everything" to do with the longevity of a lithium battery, and can even double your "run time" from one charge. In fact its a proven fact raising your thermostat at home will save you cash.

Thanks Mike

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/thermostats

https://www.achrnews.com/articles/94...ficant-savings

Mike, you are beating a dead horse. Nobody said that the thermostat isn't ONE OF MANY factors that affect battery life on AC. The issue is telling everyone it is the MAJOR factor without anything else being considered. Using the thermostat may save you nothing if the AC stays maxed out, or it may save you 100% if it stops running completely by changing the the setting. The same can be said for going to a cooler area, getting out of the sun, turning off toaster oven.

You need to remember all this thermostat setting stuff started because of the claims of expected battery life without stating any conditions under which that life could be achieved. Those varying conditions could make the claims correct or grossly incorrect, so need to be stated. Many (maybe most?) of your readers are not going to understand that those stated hours aren't all the time, I think, as that is exactly what we have seen over the years with the Roadtrek claims. Lots of unhappy customers that found they didn't get the claimed hours of AC use. Were the conditions, or the thermostat setting, different maybe?, probably? Nobody knows because the initial claim conditions weren't stated.

So, what is being said is that blanket statements that certainly may be true under one set of conditions, may very well be untrue under other conditions. Any "expert" who is giving the masses recommendations needs to explain this to those masses so they can understand and make decent decisions for themselves. IMO, picking out one factor out of a big list of important factors has marginal use. In this case, yes thermostat can be a factor for sure, but to single it out of a bunch of likely at least as important factors doesn't really do any good.

If you were trying to buy a battery system and they stated AC hours or running wouldn't you like to know the outside temp and humidity, sun conditions, inside temp, any other heat sources in the van, thermostat setting, color and insulation of the van, number of windows, etc so you could compare to the places you go to, how you use the van, and the van you will have? How would you evaluate the accuracy of the claimed hours of AC running, which could have been done inside building under vastly different conditions than you will ever see, or they could have just been made up?

Using house comparisons locks in a lot of the possible variations you see in RVs, as the house always sits in the same spot, with the same shade, facing the same way, same amount windows, number of people, etc. All of that comes in when they do a heat load on the house to determine AC size based on all the fixed factors and the quite consistent climate net averages for the location. With all those factors tied down, thermostat setting gets to be more of a factor in implementing change, plus you have to remember that the % savings they talk about are for a long period of time, so all the other factors that do change over time average out. The AC is sized to not be too large or too small for the conditions in that particular house so is not maxed out or running too little. In a van on batteries, average battery life on AC may be an interesting number, but it is not what you really need in many cases. What you need is run time under the conditions you are at, or even better minimum run time based on your worst case conditions. This is particularly important to pet owners who leave the pet in the RV while gone and need to know how long they can be gone. That time is so variable based on conditions and starting SOC of the batteries, that you now see all the Autostarting of vans or generators and once you get to that point battery life gets relatively unimportant anyway, as long as your charge sources are large enough and reliable enough.

Of course, your opinions may be different

[avanti]

I turned my thermostat up to 120. I was able to run in this mode for months without recharging.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Booster I really appreciate your reply's and thoughts however the thermostat setting has "Everything" to do with the longevity of a lithium battery, and can even double your "run time" from one charge. In fact its a proven fact raising your thermostat at home will save you cash.

Thanks Mike

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/thermostats

https://www.achrnews.com/articles/94...ficant-savings

I think that post as a response is a pretty clear indication of a limited understanding of what's being discussed.

[avanti]

[Moderator's note:]
Please avoid repetitive content. I almost did a clean-up of this thread, but decided to leave it for now. Substantive criticism of claims is fine, as is humor (within reason). But simply repeating previous statements is just bickering.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by markopolo

I think that post as a response is a pretty clear indication of a limited understanding of what's being discussed.

I doubt that markopolo. Mike seems to expect that respected folks here and everyone else need to agree with everything he states because of his 'credentials'. He can't seem to stop 'bragging?' about them. And that makes him right, when it does not make anyone right about anything.

Bud

[markopolo]

Are we being played here? Is it all about keeping the topic alive to generate click-throughs to his website?

I'm thinking the links should be disabled and if Mike is genuinely interested in participating on this forum then he'll stick around and contribute. If it is all about the click-throughs then he'll go elsewhere.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Are we being played here? Is it all about keeping the topic alive to generate click-throughs to his website? ...

Mike has posted the same exact thread on the Sprinter-Source forum - that is being ignored. I don't know if it is click-bait or just his braggadocio. I've seen him do the same thing on Sprinter forum in arguments about his drone helicopter claims. He always has to be right and changes the terms of an argument to make it so.

To his credit I did find it interesting the Midwest Automotive Design (MAD) uses a unique mounting system for the Onan generator under his Sprinter. It surely isolates the noise that typically get transferred inside the van like my Airstream Interstate.

Also learned that MAD does custom designs like Advanced RV. I wonder if anyone on the forum has a custom Sprinter from MAD.

[booster]

I was also thinking about the clickbait thing.

Has Mike ever declared if he is, or isn't, an ambassador, or get a spiff from any of the products he pushes?

In regards to the MAD designs, I haven't heard of customs, but the local dealer has had quite a few variations. The early ones were very expensive and also very shiny, led lighted, etc more like party vans, but the latest we have seen are toned down a lot and also much more competitively priced. The quality and fit and finish were always very good, and the technology mostly non cutting edge except for lots of connectivity, from the ones we have seen here. I don't see any reason for anyone to cross them off their list, and if they do full customs for decent prices, that would be very nice.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Davydd,

I've been building lithium powered military drones since 1995 long before you or anyone in an RV even knew what lithium was. I'm talking about drones which have a 12 foot rotor span and carry 250 lb payloads not toy drones you shoot pictures with.

Rotory

I highly suggest you read my article on lithium verses generators to brush up on some real facts regarding propane generators and their many advantages. My article took a year to compile by actual meetings and conversations with most every lithium manufacture, vendors and users, its all 100% factual in every respect.

http://www.rotory.com/sprinter/lithium/

Thanks Mike

I know. But I told you the Navy had drones as early as 1968 remember when you bragged you developed the first one? But what does that have to do in regard to Class B use? Anyway, you did not respond to my comment. You have yet to have any real life experience in traveling in a Class B and it shows.

[IdleUp]

Again - Many thanks for all the reply's guys - For the most part, I'm more than happy the only point contradicted in my in-depth 25 page report on “Lithium & Onan Generators”, was a simple concern a 600 amp pack could power an AC unit for 6-8 hours. These times are conservative and accurate in every respect and have been further confirmed many time over by lithium battery system vendors such as Volta, Lithionics and Xantrex during their application testing, plus further confirmed by actual RV owners.

I have also documented these run times personally on numerous occasions in my friends 600 ah lithium equipped Winnebago View who I fly with at events. Last summer at events, after we grab a bite to eat in town we generally get back to the RV around 7-8 pm. Bob then fires up his generator for an hour or so to cool off the coach and put a head on the battery. Around nine, he shuts down the generator and powers the air solely from his lithium pack and sets the AC at 80 degrees with the fan on low. The unit then runs and cycles all night, at around 8am when I put on the coffee, the pack still shows a SOC of around 10-20%. In addition to the air running, the lithium is also charging our drone batteries. There is no refrigerator draw since his box is propane. You can check my math, but this is 11 hours anyway you look at it.

Regretfully, a few guys are having difficulty understanding that higher thermostat settings has a major effect on power usage. It's simple logic, since the compressor is the main draw from the battery, the less it runs, the more time you’ll get from the pack.

Finally, if anyone has any further questions concerning lithium or Onan generators, I would be happy to accommodate your questions on my other thread on “Lithium verses Onan Generators” at the link provided below.

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f5...html#post91516

Since this thread is dedicated to Midwest Automotive Designs beautiful 4x4 diesel conversion, let’s please keep the focus on this coach.

Regards - Mike