Mercedes BlueTec Diesel Article

[booster]

I guess a lot of folks have more faith that the OEM will do a good and ethical job of producing a vehicle.

If companies are willing to intentionally violate the law to cheat on emissions testing and pollute at many times the allowed rate nearly all the time, do you really think they would hesitate about using an oil that is too light for the application to try to make the emissions rules? I am not saying that the article is correct or not correct, but I also would not say MB oil or the spec, are not issues. Remember how many different "requirements" the MB gave different people both in person and in bulletins about how long you could idle a Sprinter without hurting it?

As I mentioned earlier, a lot of what the article says makes sense and does not contradict itself, from what I have seen over the years, but what does concern me about the article is the lack of easy to get testing results to back up what he says. Oil temp, cylinder head temp, oil analysis, etc for both the MB oil and the oils he recommends. If he wants to be taken seriously, he should have that information available, and if he doesn't have the information, he should get it before he spouts off.

MB is not alone in all this, as we all know and have seen with the hidden flaws and blame the customer stuff that has gone on over the years from the VW (and others) emissions scandal to killer airbag issues that were hidden for years, the list goes on...

[Phoebe3]

Originally Posted by booster

I guess a lot of folks have more faith that the OEM will do a good and ethical job of producing a vehicle.

My (completely unproven) theory is that mfgrs want the engine to last and work really well until just past the warranty. The mfgr makes money only when you buy another vehicle. The dealer makes money if you fix the one you have. In either case, making a trouble-free vehicle is only beneficial insofar as it encourages you to buy one and many people buy based on things other than reliability unless the reputation is really really bad.

Therefore, I assume the maintenance recommendations are made to make my vehicle work well until the warranty period is over. My goal is to make my vehicle last forever so I'm going to do a little research and make decisions based on what I learn.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

I guess a lot of folks have more faith that the OEM will do a good and ethical job of producing a vehicle.

If companies are willing to intentionally violate the law to cheat on emissions testing and pollute at many times the allowed rate nearly all the time, do you really think they would hesitate about using an oil that is too light for the application to try to make the emissions rules?

ONE company did so, and it is not the company we are talking about. I would not buy a Volkswagen vehicle if my life depended on it. The insuination that "they all do it" requires support.

I am not saying that the article is correct or not correct, but I also would not say MB oil or the spec, are not issues. Remember how many different "requirements" the MB gave different people both in person and in bulletins about how long you could idle a Sprinter without hurting it?

Actually, no, I don't. Second-hand reports of verbal claims by "important Mercedes Executives" or "my service advisor" are worthless--I reject them out of hand. I have watched very carefully for actual, written guidance from MB concerning idle. As far as I have seen, there is none. All of the "high idle" talk (one way or the other) is Internet babble.

As I mentioned earlier, a lot of what the article says makes sense and does not contradict itself, from what I have seen over the years, but what does concern me about the article is the lack of easy to get testing results to back up what he says. Oil temp, cylinder head temp, oil analysis, etc for both the MB oil and the oils he recommends. If he wants to be taken seriously, he should have that information available, and if he doesn't have the information, he should get it before he spouts off.

That is exactly my point. The article is almost 100% unsupported ranting. He just makes s**t up. Sure, a lot of it makes superficial "sense", but science is hard, and the only known sources of science in this area are the OEMs and to some extent the oil analysis companies. I challenge you to find fact-based reports that the things he claims happen actually do happen.

MB is not alone in all this, as we all know and have seen with the hidden flaws and blame the customer stuff that has gone on over the years from the VW (and others) emissions scandal to killer airbag issues that were hidden for years, the list goes on...

Your statement assumes what it is trying to prove. What evidence do you have that MB is a member of the group that you describe?

The MB BlueTec engines have big problems. I will not buy another one if I have a reasonable alternative. But these conspiracy theories that they are not acting in good faith are baseless.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by avanti

...

Actually, no, I don't. Second-hand reports of verbal claims by "important Mercedes Executives" or "my service advisor" are worthless--I reject them out of hand. I have watched very carefully for actual, written guidance from MB concerning idle. As far as I have seen, there is none. All of the "high idle" talk (one way or the other) is Internet babble.

....

+1


>there is none

[booster]

No conspiracy theory hear, just my evaluation of what the article said based on my experience. IMO, much of what he says is very possible and maybe even probable. It is not the ridiculous kind of stuff you usually see in this kind of article, even though his attitude would make you think that way.

Last I heard, there were legal proceedings related to cheating for VW, Fiat Chrysler, GM, Ford, and MB. No proof on a lot of them that I have heard, but the word on the street is that it could easily be all of them (votech instructors who test the stuff all the time). Of course it could also be none of them.

Marko had at least on document on the idling, and I think ARV had one also, and I am sure there were some others, too.

I am afraid you are attributing some stuff that I did not say or even try to imply. I plainly said he needed proof of what he said in the article. That doesn't eliminate the fact that I think it is technically plausible, which is what I think. The engines have known issues, and he has a theory of what the causes are. I stress theory, as that is what it is, even though he presents it as fact, which is truly wrong without data, as I mentioned.

I never said that MB was one of the examples of OEM misbehavior. I do, though, put the same skepticism across the board to most any manufacturer of any equipment, including all the OEM vehicle manufacturers. Personally, I would not out of hand believe whatever MB told me was the issue with the engines, as they have a vested, monetary, reputation, stake, in what gets out to the public. It is just like most things in this world, trust but verify. It would be very interesting to see if the article is correct in saying the MB no longer lets out the TSB information for general consumption, as that would be a telltale thing one way or the other.

It is just like a lot of the stuff on this forum, presentation is everything. If he had presented his ideas as a theory based on what he had seen in his experience, with explanations as to why he thought that way, I think it would have been received a lot differently. When the the problems with the change to SL and them SM oil (destruction of flat tappet engines) started to show up there were lots of articles very similar in style to the one in question, and the writers of them were savagely attacked by the oil companies about them. Basically the same as happened with Roadtrek and the original Etrek specs for battery life and charging. As it turned out, the folks that were ranting about their thousands of dollars lost due to the oil change were correct, proved when the aftermarket camshaft makers started providing additives and recommendations to use only high additive competition oils, and now all the oil companies make designated oil for flat tappet engines as well as for small engines, motorcycles, quads, etc. Those oils are very similar to the SJ oil that proceeded the change, but the oil companies never admitted there was an issue with backward compatibility, or that I know of, compensated anyone for their losses.

Call me a skeptic, because I am, both of what the article said and what MB says. Plus whatever anyone else says either way. I don't see any evidence that the article was proven to be true, but also haven't seen any evidence to prove it false. As I said, there are currently lots of growing pains for the diesels, it will be interesting to see how they handle getting it all sorted out. The problem with all this kind of stuff is that individual users are relying on a sample size of 1, which is bad in anybody's mind, I think. Until some more reliable, tested, results show up, we will only have best (or worst) guesses.

Perhaps Phoebe3 will come across some more definitive information in her research. It would good for all us to see.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

Marko had at least on document on the idling, and I think ARV had one also, and I am sure there were some others, too.

Citation??

[booster]

From an ARV thread in 2012 posted by Marko

Tech note: I received the following response from Sprinter Engineering Support to my inquiry re: extended idling on current model Sprinter vans:

Per your request, with the SCR technology of our engines, we do not recommend idling a Sprinter for longer periods than 2.5 - 3 hours.

Even with the high idle engaged, you should not exceed the aforementioned times to avoid clogging the DPF or damage to the EGR valve.

Fyi, the fuel consumption is .4 - . 5gal. per hour of idling.

[booster]

Here is a post that I put up in 2013 after contacting MB with the idling questions. Of course this could be considered second hand information and thrown out, but it is first hand to me, plus I would have had to make it up 5 years ago.

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f5...html#post13749

partial quote for the link

Re: New Roadtrek RS E-Trek
Some folks on other boards were pointing to contradictory information from Mercedes on the idling issue, most were diesel owners I suspect I sent an e-mail to MB, USA and asked specifically about the Roadtrek e-trek, stating that to be used as Roadtrek is advertising, the Sprinter might need to be idled 1 or more hours a day, for several days in a row. The response was pretty plain and simple. For the conditions I listed, they said it could damage the EGR and DPF systems, and cause failures. I would think that would also make it a warranty violation, so repairs wouldn't be covered. On the Yahoo board, a member says that Roadtrek told him that Mercedes has approved their usage in the e-trek, and I asked MB about that, also. They didn't respond to that part of the questioning. Roadtrek didn't give that member anything in writing, IIRC.

[avanti]

Yes, I remember both of those discussions. Thank you. I don't at all doubt that "somebody" at MB made those statements. I also agree with the advice, and follow it myself. But, as you have suggested, other people at MB have made all kinds of different statements on this topic.What I am claiming doesn't exist, is a formal, referenceable MB publication that makes those (or any other) recommendations concerning idle time. Absent that, it could hardly constitute a warranty violation.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

Yes, I remember both of those discussions. Thank you. I don't at all doubt that "somebody" at MB made those statements. I also agree with the advice, and follow it myself. But, as you have suggested, other people at MB have made all kinds of different statements on this topic.What I am claiming doesn't exist, is a formal, referenceable MB publication that makes those (or any other) recommendations concerning idle time. Absent that, it could hardly constitute a warranty violation.

I actually had found a link I had saved sometime in the past that went to a MB letterhead document on it. Unfortunately, I had only saved the link, and it is was now dead so I couldn't get it back. IIRC the document said the same as the other posts. I looked the MB sites, and they have pretty much removed all that kind of documentation for most anything in the vehicles.

[BBQ]

.

I remember from a few years back there was a statement on an MB webpage about long idling and how to handle it. That page was pulled.

[<<B-Guy>>]

Maybe a little off topic, but I recently tried getting a little info from MB Canada with no luck.

I had been told by an RV manufacturer's rep (Not RT) that MB were not happy with RT's under hood generator installation and voltstart circuitry and that he had heard that they were going to advise RT that installation of voltstart was not approved.

No idea if this is just sales hype for this other vehicle manufacture's product or not, but it did concern me from a possible warranty aspect for the MB Sprinter.

I had heard of some concerns about long periods of idling and wondered if that was an issue with MB.

I wrote to MB Canada stating that I was considering buying a Sprinter equipped with these features and that I fully understood that any issues with an underhood generator or auto starting feature would be nothing to do with MB, but was wanting to find out if these additions would adversely impact any other aspect of MB's vehicle warranty.

Initially I got a polite reply with a file reference and was advised that They would be responding shortly.

I think that was a couple of months back and despite two more enquiries, quoting the file
reference I was given, not a word of reply! Hmmm.

Maybe I should have expected that. It still concerns me a bit, as I do like these features - well, mainly the under hood generator rather than an onan (although I wonder if its low mounting position might be problematic in Canadian winters with lots f slush and road salt.) I'm not sure I have much need for voltstart.

I am still dithering between Sprinter and Promaster (leaning more towards Promaster for a number of reasons) and this is still one issue that concerns me. I suppose if I go with a Sprinter i'll just have to take my chances.

Brian

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Wingeezer

I had been told by an RV manufacturer's rep (Not RT) that MB were not happy with RT's under hood generator installation and voltstart circuitry and that he had heard that they were going to advise RT that installation of voltstart was not approved.

No idea if this is just sales hype for this other vehicle manufacture's product or not, but it did concern me from a possible warranty aspect for the MB Sprinter.

I had heard of some concerns about long periods of idling and wondered if that was an issue with MB.

Sprinters come with a mounting location specifically designed for take-off devices like second alternators. They are explicitly referenced in the Bodybuilders guidelines. They are not an issue.

It is true that MB does not generally approve of aftermarket connections to the CANbus (which is required for autostart). However, at least under US law, they cannot void a warranty due to aftermarket additions to a vehicle. Of course, any damage caused by such an addition is not covered by the warranty.

As for high idle, as I said before, since the MB warranty does not reference long idle time and nowhere do the Operator's Manuals proscribe it, as far as I can see there is no way it can affect your warranty. (Whether or not it is a good idea is a different question). IIRC, the manuals DO talk about the need for periodic highway driving to allow DPF regeneration.

Do you know whether Canadian law differs from US law WRT warranty consumer protection? I have assumed that they were basically the same, but perhaps that is not correct.
[/QUOTE]

[Phoebe3]

This is from May 2017. don't know where it stands now but MB is saying in its investor reports that they are posting record earnings.

https://www.cars.com/articles/merced...1420695383544/

CARS.COM — Mercedes-Benz has ended its efforts to get its planned 2017 diesel models approved for sale in the U.S.

A U.S. spokesman told Reuters that the 2017 certification effort is now "on hold."
Spokesman Rob Moran said no decision had been made about future Mercedes-Benz diesel models in the U.S. and that the company could decide later to resume the effort for approval from emissions regulators to sell its diesels here.
...

Mercedes-Benz, which offered four of its Bluetec diesel models in 2016, has been under an emissions investigation in the U.S. as well as in Germany. Brand parent Daimler also is doing its own investigation.

Given the diesel investigations and uncertainty, Daimler warned investors in its quarterly earnings report last month that the company "could be subject to significant monetary penalties, remediation requirements, vehicle recalls, process improvements and mitigation measures, and/or other sanctions, measures and actions, including further investigations by these or other authorities and additional litigations."

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

This is from May 2017. don't know where it stands now but MB is saying in its investor reports that they are posting record earnings.

https://www.cars.com/articles/merced...1420695383544/

CARS.COM — Mercedes-Benz has ended its efforts to get its planned 2017 diesel models approved for sale in the U.S.

A U.S. spokesman told Reuters that the 2017 certification effort is now "on hold."
Spokesman Rob Moran said no decision had been made about future Mercedes-Benz diesel models in the U.S. and that the company could decide later to resume the effort for approval from emissions regulators to sell its diesels here.
...

Mercedes-Benz, which offered four of its Bluetec diesel models in 2016, has been under an emissions investigation in the U.S. as well as in Germany. Brand parent Daimler also is doing its own investigation.

Given the diesel investigations and uncertainty, Daimler warned investors in its quarterly earnings report last month that the company "could be subject to significant monetary penalties, remediation requirements, vehicle recalls, process improvements and mitigation measures, and/or other sanctions, measures and actions, including further investigations by these or other authorities and additional litigations."

Yup... they are all cheating, no doubt about that.

The question is, how is the German government going to handle this embarrassing scandal.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

As for high idle, as I said before, since the MB warranty does not reference long idle time and nowhere do the Operator's Manuals proscribe it, as far as I can see there is no way it can affect your warranty. (Whether or not it is a good idea is a different question). IIRC, the manuals DO talk about the need for periodic highway driving to allow DPF regeneration.

From the 2015 owners manual. Definitely mentions idling, but call it "stationary" use. No times, however, so they can call it whatever they want later, but so can you. If I were worried about a future warranty claim refusal, I would do an email exchange that they either dodge of won't say what "long periods" are.



The fact that they mention fuel dilution would also say that you would need to be very careful with the 5W-30 oil and somehow monitor if it is losing viscosity due to dilution. It could also mean more frequent oil changes as not all of the stuff in the fuel gets burned back off out of the oil with driving.

[GeorgeRa]

This is recent news about MB diesel. I think diesel cars are kaput in US. https://www.autoblog.com/2018/01/22/...iesel-cars-us/
EPA was always rough on diesels, after disgraceful VW fiasco rightfully so.

GM diesel disaster left bad taste for many Dreadful Engines From General Motors Gave Diesels a Bad Name - The New York Times and diesel sales never did nor will match EU sales. Like in VW it was a small group of folks making decision of cheating in VW or using gas engine block for diesel engine by GM but lasting consequences were huge.

Promaster is practically as good in gas mileage as V6 Sprinter diesel, so why bother with diesels. But, Sprinter has some other qualities. It will be interesting to see which gas engine MB will stuff into Sprinters, their Dodge Sprinter gas engine sales were disastrous.

[<<B-Guy>>]

Originally Posted by avanti

Sprinters come with a mounting location specifically designed for take-off devices like second alternators. They are explicitly referenced in the Bodybuilders guidelines. They are not an issue.

It is true that MB does not generally approve of aftermarket connections to the CANbus (which is required for autostart). However, at least under US law, they cannot void a warranty due to aftermarket additions to a vehicle. Of course, any damage caused by such an addition is not covered by the warranty.

As for high idle, as I said before, since the MB warranty does not reference long idle time and nowhere do the Operator's Manuals proscribe it, as far as I can see there is no way it can affect your warranty. (Whether or not it is a good idea is a different question). IIRC, the manuals DO talk about the need for periodic highway driving to allow DPF regeneration.

Do you know whether Canadian law differs from US law WRT warranty consumer protection? I have assumed that they were basically the same, but perhaps that is not correct.

[/QUOTE]


Not sure about Can law vs. US law being the same or different, but generally that sort of issue is a pet peeve of mine!

So often the Canadian regulations appear to be copied directly from US regs - except we change maybe 1% !

It is almost as if it were done just to show that we are "Different!"

I often came across this sort of issue in my previous life working for the railroad in relations to train inspection regulations in the US versus Canada. It became a somewhat troublesome issue when trains originating in the US would enter Canada and vice versa.

You'd think our two countries could get together a little more on this sort of thing!

Probably if I went for a Sprinter my preference would be to have the under hood generator but not the voltstart - I think they are separate options.

Reality is though that unless we order a vehicle with the associated long delivery time, we would be stuck with whatever options or on the vehicles in the dealer's lot.

Brian

[GeorgeRa]

And this…….
“The scandal surrounding dubious emissions tests on macaques commissioned by Volkswagen, BMW and Daimler can no longer be played down with tedious jokes and vague preaching. In recent days, we have witnessed a number of top German carmakers lose the last modicum of what little credibility they still possessed.
The list of scandals is long: visits to whorehouses submitted as company expenses, manipulation of diesel engines in millions of cars, cartel-style collusion between alleged competitors. Scandal after scandal has been exposed and condemned, with few lessons learned. Instead, improvements were promised, and the industry constantly conveyed that, "We've gotten the message." The company he runs will now "practice greater transparency and honesty," VW CEO Mathias Müller said a few months back. But things have neither gotten any more transparent nor particularly honest.”

A Monkey on Their Back: German Carmakers Have Lost All Moral Standing - SPIEGEL ONLINE

[Boxster1971]

When Mercedes announced halting diesel cars and SUVs in the USA it was reported that they are only 2% of their USA market. Diesels are gone for 2018 models and likely will not return in USA.

Sprinters continue to have the V-6 3.0L turbo-diesel, but the 4-cylinder diesel is no longer offered. No word yet on the engine options that will be offered on the new 3rd Generation Sprinters. The first details will be released next week.

Regarding idling - if you do a search they is a lot of info on the problems with long idling of diesels just as the Sprinter owners manual points out thanks to Booster's post above.

This article on diesel engine myths is from the power and motor yacht world. Myth #1 applies to fuel dilution in all diesels, just as mentioned in the Sprinter owners manual.

https://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/m...l-engine-myths