MB Sprinter Disturbing News Delay

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I wouldn't mind having an Ecoboost engine over a diesel if I could get the equivalent of the diesel-fired Espar glycol heat and hot water in gasoline.

There are gasoline-fired Espars. Only minor differences. Not really an issue. And, even if this weren't true, a small dedicated diesel tank would be fine. One could run kerosene in it occasionally, which would be good.

Personally, I would go far out of my way to avoid ever owning a diesel Sprinter again. I am done with the nonsense. My next rig will very likely be Ecoboost. I would consider another Sprinter, if I could get a gas engine on whatever chassis I choose.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

ARV approach with Metris of developing a new product and then seeking potential customers was a little awkward. There is an existing customer base of Westfalia like layouts and ARV could have direct their effort towards the known market and likely be successful.

This was a simple concept, but nothing to my liking. I don't know how much different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWWANl--m1I

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

.................I don't know how much different.

Claustrophobic sleeping and a galley accessible from outside only. It was a tailgate party van not a campervan resulted from their mixed bag of goals.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

Just to be clear, the Wendlands and the article I linked are talking about the future 2020 Mercedes Sprinter, not the currently available ones.

One of the links Boxster provides seems to reference Wendlands as its source. I am wondering if this is just rumor. Maybe we can start giving it credence when (and if) there is an actual shortage of class B's available on dealer lots this spring.

Yes - one of those links I posted mentioned the Wendlands. But if you read further into that thread you will see a letter to a dealer from LTV discussing the 2020 Sprinter delays.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by avanti

There are gasoline-fired Espars. Only minor differences. Not really an issue. And, even if this weren't true, a small dedicated diesel tank would be fine. One could run kerosene in it occasionally, which would be good. . .

Many builder as using Espar gasoline heaters on Promaster and Transit conversion with trend away from propane for vans. I noticed some boaters run Espars exclusively on kerosene as it burns cleaner. But it is a bit more expense.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by avanti

There are gasoline-fired Espars. Only minor differences. Not really an issue. And, even if this weren't true, a small dedicated diesel tank would be fine. One could run kerosene in it occasionally, which would be good.

Personally, I would go far out of my way to avoid ever owning a diesel Sprinter again. I am done with the nonsense. My next rig will very likely be Ecoboost. I would consider another Sprinter, if I could get a gas engine on whatever chassis I choose.

Ok avanti, you have an ?, what would one call it ?, concerning sprinter diesels along with others for good reason. So the question is concerning another post of yours about the terrific ARV sprinters:

Which would you choose after your Great West is lost or whatever, an ARV sprinter or Any Ford Transit ecoboost of your choosing with any and all options (no upfitters or the like). After use, there would be no financial gain or loss, just ARV sprinter or the Transit with any and all options?

[GeorgeRa]

Diesel is gaining its market share in NA. Mercedes introduced SCR/DEF in 2008 into Sprinters. My 2013 could still be exposed to infant mortality symptom, the left side on the bathtub curve. It is a matter of time when NOx sensors will be as reliable as commonly used oxygen sensors required in every gasoline engine, similar technology.
https://www.dieselforum.org/vehicles...ales-dashboard

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by avanti

. . . I wonder how long it will be before ARV broadens their offerings. Sticking to their Mercedes knitting during their start-up phase made great sense. The NRE and overhead involved in supporting multiple platforms would have seriously cramped their style. Won't last forever, though.

While attending the ARV Fest in May I specifically asked Mike N if they would consider building on a Transit. The answer was yes, although they don't yet have a strong connection with Ford. I'm sure if someone wanted them to build on a Transit they would do it.

[MsNomer]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Here is AZ, they are mostly Sprinters... with an occasional Transit. Haven't seen one Promaster. In MN, most seem to be Promaster.

I wonder if this is because Promaster is not prone to rust. My window cutouts have been standing on end outdoors in the dirt for five years and have only a hint of rust. In Europe, where this body goes back to 2006, I have never seen rust except where obviously poor repairs were made. Rust is a common occurrence in Sprinters and Transits.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Diesel is gaining its market share in NA.

That article has been hyped to the skies by the diesel industry. I don't find their numbers at all impressive.

First of all, are you SURE that market share has been growing? Certain cherry-picked segments have larger absolute diesel sales, but is that a result of market share increases or just larger overall sales of diesel-eligible vehicles? I am not saying one way or the other, but I have had trouble finding the relevant stats. I do note, however, the the article sited claims that total US diesel sales in Q3 2019 was 2.9% of total vehicles sales, whereas in 2014, the Bureau of Transportation Statistics puts the same statistic at 4%:
https://www.bts.gov/archive/publicat...2015/figure_01

Secondly, the total US diesel sales are such a tiny percentage of the market that looking at these small year over year changes (in either direction) is kind of meaningless.

Mercedes introduced SCR/DEF in 2008 into Sprinters. My 2013 could still be exposed to infant mortality symptom, the left side on the bathtub curve. It is a matter of time when NOx sensors will be as reliable as commonly used oxygen sensors required in every gasoline engine, similar technology.
https://www.dieselforum.org/vehicles...ales-dashboard

I'm sure that Mercedes will eventually find a vendor who knows how to make reliable NOx sensors. But, my disillusion with diesel goes way beyond that. I do not believe that BlueTec will EVER work right, and I do not believe that Daimler will ever invest in a clean-slate replacement.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

That article has been hyped to the skies by the diesel industry. I don't find their numbers at all impressive.

First of all, are you SURE that market share has been growing? Certain cherry-picked segments have larger absolute diesel sales, but is that a result of market share increases or just larger overall sales of diesel-eligible vehicles? I am not saying one way or the other, but I have had trouble finding the relevant stats. I do note, however, the the article sited claims that total US diesel sales in Q3 2019 was 2.9% of total vehicles sales, whereas in 2014, the Bureau of Transportation Statistics puts the same statistic at 4%:
https://www.bts.gov/archive/publicat...2015/figure_01

Secondly, the total US diesel sales are such a tiny percentage of the market that looking at these small year over year changes (in either direction) is kind of meaningless.


I'm sure that Mercedes will eventually find a vendor who knows how to make reliable NOx sensors. But, my disillusion with diesel goes way beyond that. I do not believe that BlueTec will EVER work right, and I do not believe that Daimler will ever invest in a clean-slate replacement.

With VW diesel disaster in 2015 overall car and SUV market of diesel is certainly down if compared to 2014. The truck market from small (Colorado) to large trucks is growing as a result of more diesel offerings. A few of my friends (small statistical population) recently purchased small diesel trucks and I don’t hear horror stories yet. They even have a DEF level gauge which Mercedes couldn’t manage for my van.

Regarding future of SCR, DEF, and DPF I believe than these technologies can get to mature reliability, will they before electric powertrain simplicity takes over, I have no clue. I believe that injecting urea to reduced NOx is not a rocket science, it is a reasonably simple chemical reaction. Semitrucks use DEF for 10 years and their major issues are related to is DEFluid quality control, unknown manufacturers at gas stations etc. Certainly not unresolvable problem.

I had SCR/DEF issues with my van, unpleasant, shedding bed light on Mercedes but I am not ready to jump from diesel. Certainly, grass is very green with hydrogen power fuel cells or 600 miles batteries or direct injection gas engines.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

But, my disillusion with diesel goes way beyond that. I do not believe that BlueTec will EVER work right, and I do not believe that Daimler will ever invest in a clean-slate replacement.

I think is probably the most relevant post when it comes to under 1.5 ton vehicles.


A huge percentage off available research funding is going into electric and other alternate fuels/engines, so I really don't think there will be anything left for diesels beyond some tweaks to existing designs. So no clean sheet, new, technologies for diesels is very likely except in the heavy truck market where the engines and market are much larger and almost entirely diesel. Those markets will be much likely to be able to justify the investments in diesels and because of the need for long distances, electric is not nearly as much of a short term threat diesel power as it is for light vehicle market.

[Boxster1971]

On a side note about the demise of diesels - Mitsubishi Fuso Truck of America, Inc., 89% owned by Daimler AG, dropped the diesel engine in the FE medium duty trucks after the 2017 model year. They are now powered by a PSI 6.0L gasoline V-8.

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-r...L-Engines.html

https://www.mitfuso.com/en-us/blog/w...ne-over-diesel

[booster]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

On a side note about the demise of diesels - Mitsubishi Fuso Truck of America, Inc., 89% owned by Daimler AG, dropped the diesel engine in the FE medium duty trucks after the 2017 model year. They are now powered by a PSI 6.0L gasoline V-8.

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-r...L-Engines.html

https://www.mitfuso.com/en-us/blog/w...ne-over-diesel

That's interesting. I have seen a couple of articles on the PSI engine and then looked up the website. Purpose built gas engine specifically made to duplicate the specs of a similar sized diesel. Low rpm, huge torque, diesel feel when driving. Apparently, one of their early target markets was/is the school bus operators in the cold part of the country where getting all the buses started on a cold Monday morning after a cold weekend can be quite an adventure. Could you imagine 100 diesels sitting outside at -30*F with no heat on them and trying to get them all going?

[avanti]

Volvo's position on diesel:

Volvo Cars says it will never launch another diesel model as mounting technology costs see the Swedish carmaker move towards a future making only electrically powered vehicles.

The S60 saloon to be launched this year will be the first Volvo in decades built without a diesel engine, chief executive Hakan Samuelsson will tell the Financial Times’ Future of the Car Summit in London on Wednesday.

The move is the first step in Volvo’s pledge that all new cars launched next year will contain only hybrid or full-electric technology, the first major carmaker to pledge to phase out vehicles powered solely by internal combustion engines.

“We’re not saying diesel is more dirty, but it’s more complicated and more expensive,” Mr Hakan told the FT ahead of the speech.

https://www.ft.com/content/6bf0ce8a-...2-d6ceb45fa9d0

Via con dios.

[Chris Hayden]

Sort of off topic a wee bit, but I believe part of Ford Motor motivation to develop the new "Godzilla" V-8 gasoline engine was to quell some commercial vehicle buyers complaints about maintaining a diesel fleet. Also it will be used on the F53 chassis that Class As are built on, giving better torque performance than the current V-10 offering. Not close to diesel torque but a lot less expensive overall to own and better performance than their current chassis.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Chris Hayden

Sort of off topic a wee bit, but I believe part of Ford Motor motivation to develop the new "Godzilla" V-8 gasoline engine was to quell some commercial vehicle buyers complaints about maintaining a diesel fleet. Also it will be used on the F53 chassis that Class As are built on, giving better torque performance than the current V-10 offering. Not close to diesel torque but a lot less expensive overall to own and better performance than their current chassis.

Yes. There are SO many alternatives to diesel these days, and diesel has received SO much bad press (both deserved and undeserved), that these kinds of initiatives make much more sense to the OEMs than continuing to beat their heads against the diesel emissions wall. Even if you ignore the non-ICE alternatives, there are many, many shiny new alternatives attracting R&D dollars.

A word on torque:
This whole notion of "I need the torque of diesel" is nonsense these days. It was true when the only choice of drivetrain were crude, dumb transmissions. But torque and horsepower are fungible. Trading off between torque and speed is exactly what transmissions do. A big part of the "demise of diesel" story involves the current generation of many-speed, electronically-controlled transmissions. These things are marvels. Give them enough HP and they can be designed to give you all the torque you want.

[Bud]

"Give them enough HP and they can be designed to give you all the torque you want."

Yes, and some of the alternatives don't need any gears or cvt - Tesla model S for example.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

A word on torque:
This whole notion of "I need the torque of diesel" is nonsense these days. It was true when the only choice of drivetrain were crude, dumb transmissions. But torque and horsepower are fungible. Trading off between torque and speed is exactly what transmissions do. A big part of the "demise of diesel" story involves the current generation of many-speed, electronically-controlled transmissions. These things are marvels. Give them enough HP and they can be designed to give you all the torque you want.

I think this is true, for certain. But, I also think it is important for everyone to understand it is not a one way street.



Currently, the thinking is, and has been for a long long time, that you need to trade speed (rpm) for torque in a gas engine. I think this is mainly just because gas engines have traditionally been designed for light vehicles and diesels for heavy vehicles. The PSI engine and other newer gas engines are now showing this is not necessarily the case. If the manufacturer chooses to design a low rpm, high torque gas engine it can pretty easily be done. There are advantages to both high rpm/lower torque and low rpm/high torque, and IMO it all depends on application and personal choice.


The fact that gas can be either doesn't really change anything in Avanti's statements about the desirability and necessity for lots of gears. Truckers found that out a long time ago with 18 speed manual transmissions. Gas has been slower to adopt it not because the same benefits don't exist, it is just that with the light vehicles they could get away without lots of gears because they rarely needed anywhere near maximum power to move.


To me, both engine styles need as many gears as they can get in heavy vehicles, including the gas engines designed as high rpm/low torque and the ones designed for high torque/low rpm. The only real difference is which direction the transmission moves the power. Does it trade speed for torque or torque for speed as neither style can cover the full range needed without the gearing.

[Spyder777]

Originally Posted by avanti

Volvo's position on diesel:



https://www.ft.com/content/6bf0ce8a-...2-d6ceb45fa9d0

Via con dios.

Not great at Spanish, but, did you mean hasta la vista diesel?