Making an Onan Quiet Generator Quieter!

[booster]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

You guys are great - Your reply's are interesting and for the most part, I think we're all saying the same exact thing!

Forget generators, whoever invests in piston generators is going lose money - It's all going to end up with lithium gentleman - Tesla's (Elon's) cells from his mega plant are setting all new standards in lowing the price to where lithium will be commonplace in most every vehicle and RV.

All we have to do is wait a few more years so they are affordable!

Regards - Mike

Yeah, but you still need a method to replace all the power to the batteries, hopefully without having to drive or idle the van all day. Some here drive plenty enough to not have an issue, but others like to stay put in one place for longer periods so that can get complicated if you are using big power for air conditioning. Ideally, the fuel cells will get big enough, cheap enough, and small enough to be able to keep up with all that energy replacement when necessary, but until they, or something else, is ready we are realistically looking at either engine generators or standalone generators, as there really is no other non grid option available.

[hbn7hj]

I still wonder if a Yamaha 3000 can fit in an Onan 2800 generator case when you remove the fuel tank, wheels, and other things not necessary. 22"X16.3"X12.8"

[Davydd]

Interesting but futile discussion because by the end of the day (pun intended) you can’t make an internal combustion engine generator quiet enough. Any amount of noise you may personally tolerate will not be tolerated by other campers, will mostly not be allowed in campgrounds at all or in just restricted hours of usually 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the early evening. In effect a 100 amp charger could not replenish most high ah lithium battery banks. You need to drive with a second alternator, not idle, with currently available technology offered by upfitters. Second alternator, BTW, idling in a campground is not a solution either. They are just as objectionable to other neighboring campers. For that matter, running air conditioners in a mixed campground with tent campers is also obnoxious. You might as well stay home if you want to sit inside a cramped Class B or go to a KOA like campground where you can at least plug in and not be embarrassed with the noise you make drowned out by everyone else. The idea of boondocking in a pristine wilderness with an air conditioner and generator running even with no neighbors is an oxymoron with the purpose you want to be there.

[Bud]

"but until they, or something else, is ready we are realistically looking at either engine generators or standalone generators, as there really is no other non grid option available."

booster, you have already described a dc generator. But here is the 'real deal' booster.

The real deal is YOU booster. How is that? You simply extend your, and I quote, "fun hobby" to include a quiet ac solution, pretty simple as you could, Can pull it off. Again, how is that?

First, you could simply purchase one the them quieter yet, new Honda 2200's. Then a 100 foot cable with the Honda behind 3 nice trees and 14 just right bushes. Ah, feels good, very quiet. Oh, you have one of them proair's too. Problem is, that's not an elegant booster solution. So you modify, quiet the Honda some (folks do it) and remove the trees and bushes. Still, not booster like.

Now someone comes along and gives you $30,000 to start over and place the solution on a StowAway II hitch that sticks out no more that 24 inches and easily swings out to open the back doors. The whole package is painted and matches your new B. Sorry, forgot about the extra $100,000, so you'll need to make do with the present elegant B.

I suppose that I'm making this too simple, quiet what already exists for the most part, or maybe it could be that simple.

booster, please get started, send me the solution as I have a StowAway II and can follow your plans, instructions, and I'll have fun too! The problem is if you don't perceive it as a fun hobby, not the $30,000. I'll pay $1000 for a solution, and I'll bet there are folks here that will also, we'll take up a collection. I'll bet the whole package will cost less than an Installed $5000+ LOUD onan.

Without much need for ac, is there some way to turn this into a fun hobby? You have thought about it, right?

Bud

[Bud]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Interesting but futile discussion because by the end of the day (pun intended) you can’t make an internal combustion engine generator quiet enough. Any amount of noise you may personally tolerate will not be tolerated by other campers, will mostly not be allowed in campgrounds at all or in just restricted hours of usually 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the early evening. In effect a 100 amp charger could not replenish most high ah lithium battery banks. You need to drive with a second alternator, not idle, with currently available technology offered by upfitters. Second alternator, BTW, idling in a campground is not a solution either. They are just as objectionable to other neighboring campers. For that matter, running air conditioners in a mixed campground with tent campers is also obnoxious. You might as well stay home if you want to sit inside a cramped Class B or go to a KOA like campground where you can at least plug in and not be embarrassed with the noise you make drowned out by everyone else. The idea of boondocking in a pristine wilderness with an air conditioner and generator running even with no neighbors is an oxymoron with the purpose you want to be there.

I've walked up right next to some Class A generators in order to find out if they are actually running. Thought so as the ac's were running but not the class A's engine.

Lots of folks run generators for ac, they want and will pay for a quiet one if available vs batteries.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

"but until they, or something else, is ready we are realistically looking at either engine generators or standalone generators, as there really is no other non grid option available."

booster, you have already described a dc generator. But here is the 'real deal' booster.

The real deal is YOU booster. How is that? You simply extend your, and I quote, "fun hobby" to include a quiet ac solution, pretty simple as you could, Can pull it off. Again, how is that?

First, you could simply purchase one the them quieter yet, new Honda 2200's. Then a 100 foot cable with the Honda behind 3 nice trees and 14 just right bushes. Ah, feels good, very quiet. Oh, you have one of them proair's too. Problem is, that's not an elegant booster solution. So you modify, quiet the Honda some (folks do it) and remove the trees and bushes. Still, not booster like.

Now someone comes along and gives you $30,000 to start over and place the solution on a StowAway II hitch that sticks out no more that 24 inches and easily swings out to open the back doors. The whole package is painted and matches your new B. Sorry, forgot about the extra $100,000, so you'll need to make do with the present elegant B.

I suppose that I'm making this too simple, quiet what already exists for the most part, or maybe it could be that simple.

booster, please get started, send me the solution as I have a StowAway II and can follow your plans, instructions, and I'll have fun too! The problem is if you don't perceive it as a fun hobby, not the $30,000. I'll pay $1000 for a solution, and I'll bet there are folks here that will also, we'll take up a collection. I'll bet the whole package will cost less than an Installed $5000+ LOUD onan.

Without much need for ac, is there some way to turn this into a fun hobby? You have thought about it, right?

Bud

I do think about this kind of stuff all the time, as, like most unresolved issues of all kinds, they are interesting and a challenge to me. Others do crosswords for that similar purpose.



With enough money, I do think your scenario of quiet AC and generator is possible, but thousands, tens of thousands, or probably hundreds of thousands would not get it done, and is likely why the stuff doesn't already exist. It would be interesting to see just how much has been spent total on electric vehicle technology by all the players combined.



Consider, development money no issue and a team of very good engineers, one possibility. AC unit based on similar technology to the Danfoss compressor frigs, but not squeezed into a small box for an existing location. Low speed, ducted fans for quiet operation, with all the parts located in the best, not cheapest, place of the van and carefully insulated for sound. Maybe even build in the condenser into some other feature or panel of the van, who knows.



Power to run an inverter style generator generated by an external combustion engine like a Sterling, again carefully designed and placed for quiet and insulation. Even better is if the generator and Sterling engine technology are combined to make an external combustion linear generator engine combo, which would be nearly silent and vibration free if done right.



The problem is that there is not enough market to pay for any of this stuff, so until there are solutions that would also apply to lots of other uses also, we aren't going to see it happen. Fuel cells are probably our best hope right now, but by tomorrow someone a lot smarter than any of us may come up with just the right flux capacitor for the job.


Those that have said that IC engines are dead or will never be made extremely quiet are for the most part correct, IMO, although the time frame may be different for me. Mobile/remote applications often need very large amounts of power, so it will likely take a while for any tech to be able to move up to the big users.



As davydd mentioned, current solutions are not very considerate of others, and as the manufacturers keep expanding the energy use norms of the vans, that will probably get worse over time. We have been in several National Parks that were very noisy with generators and vehicle engines running for essentially the entire allowed use times. NFS areas are getting there too. I would guess it will not be too long before the times and allowances shrink as it certainly does detract from the "camping experience" for many other people. If those limits do happen, it may help justify more money being put into the quieter technologies.

[GallenH]

Anecdote that davydd will appreciate since he was in Organ Pipe National Monument also.
It was a rainy morning and after my navy shower I decided to use my wimpy 12v hair dryer to dry my hair and started up the rv. After a few minutes there was a knock on the door with the campground manager reminding me that there was an idle limit of 5 minutes in the campground. Fortunately I'm nearing 70 so cound accomplish task in under 5 minutes easily!!

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by GallenH

Anecdote that davydd will appreciate since he was in Organ Pipe National Monument also.
It was a rainy morning and after my navy shower I decided to use my wimpy 12v hair dryer to dry my hair and started up the rv. After a few minutes there was a knock on the door with the campground manager reminding me that there was an idle limit of 5 minutes in the campground. Fortunately I'm nearing 70 so cound accomplish task in under 5 minutes easily!!

I could dry my hair in about two minutes, but the idea that the camp manager didn't even bother to monitor your use and only contact you if you were abusing the 5 minute rule is kind of revolting.
.

[booster]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

I could dry my hair in about two minutes, but the idea that the camp manager didn't even bother to monitor your use and only contact you if you were abusing the 5 minute rule is kind of revolting.
.

One would hope it is not just a power hungry ranger, but suppose that happens. More likely would probably be that it is a new rule (we haven't run in to that one yet) or they have too many cheaters of the rule. I wonder if it is a just an more defined "no idling" rule upgrade that makes it easier to enforce as lawyer types would claim that no idling is a practical impossibility.

[Davydd]

It’s a national monument so it could be a nationwide rule. There are several rows marked no idling or generators that are set aside for tent campers though all sites are RV suitable so you could be interspersed with them. Great campground just a few miles from the Mexico border.

[avanti]

So here's an interesting question:
What is the quietest commercially-available propane-powered generator, regardless of capacity? (Toys don't count).

It occurs to me that even a very small genset could be useful if you run it continuously--constantly trickling amps into a large battery. It would essentially be used as if it were a fuel cell. It would obviously have to be very quiet, though. I guess I am essentially describing George's "sterling engine" vision. I am wondering how close I can come to it today.

Any interesting candidates?

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

So here's an interesting question:
What is the quietest commercially-available propane-powered generator, regardless of capacity? (Toys don't count).

It occurs to me that even a very small genset could be useful if you run it continuously--constantly trickling amps into a large battery. It would essentially be used as if it were a fuel cell. It would obviously have to be very quiet, though. I guess I am essentially describing George's "sterling engine" vision. I am wondering how close I can come to it today.

Any interesting candidates?

We have discussed this a few times over the years, and I think ones that stood out to me where the small units out of Australia that were in process when the facility burned and they went under (small IC generator). There was also a suitcase sized turbine powered unit.


I would agree that the Stirling external combustion setup would be a top contender. I think in one other discussion there were links to a company that was making linear generators but I don't recall if the where IC or EC powered.


My vote is for an external combustion, vehicle fuel powered, linear generator, of low output so worked like fuel cell running near constantly.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

We have discussed this a few times over the years, and I think ones that stood out to me where the small units out of Australia that were in process when the facility burned and they went under (small IC generator). There was also a suitcase sized turbine powered unit.

I would agree that the Stirling external combustion setup would be a top contender. I think in one other discussion there were links to a company that was making linear generators but I don't recall if the where IC or EC powered.

My vote is for an external combustion, vehicle fuel powered, linear generator, of low output so worked like fuel cell running near constantly.

Yes, we have discussed the theory a lot. But, this time, I was hoping to focus on things one could actually purchase.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

Yes, we have discussed the theory a lot. But, this time, I was hoping to focus on things one could actually purchase.

That certainly would be nice, wouldn't it.


It appears that one of the top contenders just closed the doors. Cyclone Power. There seemed to be a lot more companies trying to do some of this stuff 5-10 years ago, as most searches bring up mostly old stuff.

[Bud]

booster your nice big smile is nice, but "What is the quietest commercially-available propane-powered generator, regardless of capacity?"

Like booster, I think that it should include any fuel. I assume this is about quiet a/c OUTside, and inside would be nice too as everything else has been doable for many years.

I know little about charging dc batteries with a 'generator'. Would the generator have to be like an 'underhood' one charging with dc, or could a/c output be used or too inefficient. If ac from the generator, folks are already quieting what are already considered quiet generators. But not commercially available as far as I know.

A simple example is the Honda 1000 which is a night and day difference compared to an onan and many other generators. Just quiet it some more, stick it on my Stowaway along with my ebike too maybe. I've been giving this some thought for several years. I need another B to pull this off though because I don't know any way to have a quiet ac inside with a 190P.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

booster your nice big smile is nice, but "What is the quietest commercially-available propane-powered generator, regardless of capacity?"

Like booster, I think that it should include any fuel. I assume this is about quiet a/c OUTside, and inside would be nice too as everything else has been doable for many years.

I know little about charging dc batteries with a 'generator'. Would the generator have to be like an 'underhood' one charging with dc, or could a/c output be used or too inefficient. If ac from the generator, folks are already quieting what are already considered quiet generators. But not commercially available as far as I know.

A simple example is the Honda 1000 which is a night and day difference compared to an onan and many other generators. Just quiet it some more, stick it on my Stowaway along with my ebike too maybe. I've been giving this some thought for several years. I need another B to pull this off though because I don't know any way to have a quiet ac inside with a 190P.

Of the ones we have heard run, the quietest versions of the Honda's and Yamahas appear to be the best. More sound deaden could help, but at the expense of bulk and maybe cooling efficiency. IC engines are just inherently noisy. One thing we have noticed, and has been mentioned by others, is that they still get pretty loud when running near max load, which is certainly not surprising. Those are probably the only choices currently, and maybe going forward as there just doesn't seem to be a market big enough for what we want. The fact that nobody picked up the technology of the Oz company that burned and the closing of the other companies looking at the applications, it certainly isn't encouraging. I think they all figure new technology will take over that area made small generators basically obsolete.


I think you could put a Proair in the 190 by removing the original AC and cover and making a new cover/support to fit the current area and putting the Proair at roof level with the inside air distribution switched to ducts out into the van. You would also gain a bit of storage in the area.

[GeorgeRa]

Here is a Stirling one, 750W plus heater WhisperGen from New Zealand now extinct. Stirling generators will need to compete with high volume ICE powered generators and that is a big task. You can get HF 700W 2-cycle generator for $110.

https://www.stirlingengine.com/generators/
https://www.victronenergy.com/Manual...okDO40015D.pdf

[CGAZ Paul]

Hi all!
I noticed that nobody mentioned Generac (unless I missed it). I have a '99 Generac 3kw mounted in a '99 Rialta. I used to have a 4kw Onan. I like the way Generac (and some others) operate because the more appliances you turn on, the more RPM's. This keeps a steadier and healthier voltage going to your items. I like the idea of "quieting" the gens but my concern would be applying deadening to the actual gen or inside of it. It seems to me it could smother and keep the heat in, thus making it run hotter. The chamber they sit in (outside doors, side panels, etc.) would be fine as the gen breathes anyhow. I am not up on all gens available. I have a Champion gen for my construction jobs. It also speeds up when you put it under load. Best advice ever; run it every week or two if you can.

[CGAZ Paul]

I can't believe it! First of all, I must admit a bit of neglect to my 3kw Generac. I put off changing the oil, filter, and plug for too many years. Yes! Years! I did change the Fuel Filter at least. I ran it every couple of weeks or every week. Always worked great. I ended up filling the RV with ARCO gas. (Not knocking ARCO but....) That started some troubles. I had been warned about ARCO before by a master mechanic. Anyhow, it fouled the plug. After ARCO it would run unsteady. For these last years' the gen would drip a bit of oil no matter how much I ran it. If I ran it often during traveling it seemed to almost stop.
I finally got the gumption and changed the filter, oil, plug, and gave it a Sea Foam treatment. Well, lo and behold, no more oil drips! As it turned out, the oil filter that was installed (all those years ago) was either bent or defective. It was an OEM Generac filter - but that doesn't stop damage or defects. Since the new one has been installed it has been refreshing not to see the drips. Who knew?? One person did mention to check the oil filter in the past. I checked that it was tight. I didn't have too many hours over the recommended oil change but the years were the bad thing. 3 years just seemed to go by overnight! The gen is mounted in a '99 Winnebago Rialta. Rialta changed to Onan in 2000.

[Bud]

I suppose a Statement should be made that onan can't miss.

At the next Big B Rally onans are donated that folks are going to toss out or HATE. Then some Big Gun Store donates some 12 gage pump and automatic shotguns. Of course money needs to be raised for a good cause, so there will be a fee to engage in the fun.

Frustrated onan and previous onan owners or people that just hate 2800/2500 onans can blast away with professional, welldone videos being made. These will the given to the news media to use, hopefully the nightly news and morning programs, wishful thinking. Ok, the all day news channels and rv world. All them ambassadors will add a video to their channels.....................

Bud