Lithium Batteries / voltstart.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Wingeezer

Wow, this has come a long way from my original post but has been very helpful - really thinking twice now about ordering lithium and voltstart if we do go ahead with a purchase, especially given the way we will likely use the van. Sounds as though AGM's should work fine for us - at considerably less $$.

If I read the RT literature correctly, it looks as though for the RT 210 pop, if you order the underhood gen. option (which I think we would) then part and parcel of thet option is two extra batteries - that would be for a total of four (non lithium).

I believe that with just two batts - they go in a tray that pulls out externally.

If you get the underhood generator with the two additional batteries, I am wondering where they go - I suspect they take up valuable storage space under the rear sofa but I don't know.

Can anyone advise?


The 210 looks quite attractive to me for a number of reasons compared to other makes/models, but there are a couple of other things I have not yet been able to confirm.


(1) The 210 looks very low - I presume maybe because it has a dropped floor - is it in fact much lower than other models? We won't be doing any serious off roading /boon docking, but I wonder if this could be a problem in normal camping situations.


(2) I would rather avoid the "continental" tire kit but would like to carry a spare if possible.

If you d not opt for the continenal kit does the spare have to go inside the van at teh rear or is there provision to carry it underneath?

Thanks for any advice /help!

Brian.

With lithiums, the rear passenger compartment houses a single AGM for restarting the BMS. With the extra AGMs they are put in the same spot.

Bikes typically have an insufficient tongue length to clear the Continental. You can get a short extender to accomplish this or alternatively, you can just stuff the spare in the rear storage section. Since you have to get out of the van to access this area, we gave it a low storage priority and used it for storing the spare and eliminating a tongue extender;

It doesn't jump out at you but on the option list there is a dinette option which has little to do with a dinette and actually to do with how the beds are arranged and total seating capacity.

[<<B-Guy>>]

Thanks, Cruising7338!

If I understand, your comment about location of the extra AGM's that come with the underhood generator option differs from the previous info I received.

If you are right, seems I will lose some inside storage space - a shame!

As for the spare tire, if the only option is to teh continental kit isto carry it inside - or go with no spare as PW now promote, I do think I would like to maintain as much storage inside as possible, so I guess I would just go with the continental kit, and either use a receiver extension for the bikes - or carry the bikes on the front of the van as we do now with our 2500HD truck unless for some reason I cannot do that on teh 3500 Express van.


I did note the dinette option on the RT option list for the 210

I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I can guess at how it works! I but have never seen a picture - maybe it is not a popular option compared to the sofa.

I assume it is an either/or situation - i.e. the dinette replaces the sofa.

If so, I think we would likely just go with the sofa with a pedestal table when needed. That is the only layout I have ever seen.

Thanks again for input - all appreciated! Brian.

[booster]

I have been trying to find a definitive picture of either the batteries in the compartments behind the wheels or inside, without success to this point. I was going be a discussion I remembered from a year or two ago when they first offered the extra 2 AGM batteries. A call to a dealer that has one, or the factory may be in order.

[<<B-Guy>>]

Hi Booster,

I have sent an email to the factory - if I get a reply, will post.

If I don't hear back, we hope to tour the factory before too much longer, and when we do i will see what I can learn!

We live only about an hour from Kitchener - which could be handy if we wind up with an RT!


Brian.

[booster]

I did just find a reference where an owner said that the added two batteries are way at the back of the van and are installed from underneath. That would seem to indicate either right behind the wheels on each side, or in some other small open areas way at the rear. If they go in from the bottom they shouldn't be using any of the interior storage, I would assume.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

I did just find a reference where an owner said that the added two batteries are way at the back of the van and are installed from underneath. That would seem to indicate either right behind the wheels on each side, or in some other small open areas way at the rear. If they go in from the bottom they shouldn't be using any of the interior storage, I would assume.

After thinking about it I dimly recall that there are two batteries installed in a removable panel covered compartment just forward of the rear passenger wheel and not the far rear compartment. Sorry for the confusion. Judging from your report, these two batteries are part of the original standard installation and the additional two AGMS included with the GU option are stashed somewhere below chassis. No interior storage is compromised.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

I did just find a reference where an owner said that the added two batteries are way at the back of the van and are installed from underneath. That would seem to indicate either right behind the wheels on each side, or in some other small open areas way at the rear. If they go in from the bottom they shouldn't be using any of the interior storage, I would assume.

After thinking about it I dimly recall that there are two batteries installed in a removable panel covered compartment just forward of the rear passenger wheel and not the far rear compartment. Sorry for the confusion. Judging from your report, these two batteries are part of the original standard installation and the additional two AGMS included with the GU option are stashed somewhere below chassis. No interior storage is compromised.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

I did just find a reference where an owner said that the added two batteries are way at the back of the van and are installed from underneath. That would seem to indicate either right behind the wheels on each side, or in some other small open areas way at the rear. If they go in from the bottom they shouldn't be using any of the interior storage, I would assume.

How do I import a jpg into a reply? When I try to do it I end up with a full page jpg but I lose sight of the thread.

[booster]

Yep, the two batteries in front of the passenger side rear wheel are in the stock location for two battery systems.

This post should help with pic posting. Just remember no Photobucket allowed.

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f4...html#post28234

[Phoebe3]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

How do I import a jpg into a reply? When I try to do it I end up with a full page jpg but I lose sight of the thread.

I might consider saving the original jpg to your desktop and adding it to a file the regular way.

I know you've posted a lot, but for those who haven't posted a picture before, I'll just include this...

Here's how you can post images:

When you hit Reply or start a new thread, there's a box you type into. Below that, in the box titled "Additional Options," there's another box that's called "Manage Attachments." The picture you want to upload must be in one of the valid file extensions listed. I usually use jpeg.

Click on the box that says "Manage Attachments." That brings up a pop-up. In the pop-up, click on "Choose File." Browse to the image you want to upload and click (or double-click) on it. The name of your picture will appear beside the "Choose File" button. You can do that for up to five images - one for each "Choose File" button in the pop-up.

Once you have chosen your pictures, click the "Upload" button. Your computer might take some time doing this, but in a little box under the "Choose File" buttons, there's a box that says "Current Attachments." The name of your image should appear in there.

When you are done, you can click on "Close this Window" at the bottom of the pop-up window.

Then, under the box you've been typing your message into, you can click either Preview Post or Submit Reply and the image will appear at the bottom.

[z_spatula]

Get it. I have RT 2018 SS Agile 4x4 with Voltstart and 800 amp LiFe batteries. No propane. Yeah. Solar keeps the system topped off. Have yet to use shore power in 8 months.

[ProseMan]

Originally Posted by booster

I have been trying to find a definitive picture of either the batteries in the compartments behind the wheels or inside, without success to this point. I was going be a discussion I remembered from a year or two ago when they first offered the extra 2 AGM batteries. A call to a dealer that has one, or the factory may be in order.

FWIW, I have a 2015 CS Adventurous with 8 AGM batteries. Six are in a box behind the rear axle under the chassis, so no encroachment into interior space. The other two AGM's are in the engine compartment.

The spare is still in its carrier underneath the chassis. I have the XL, so that provides additional under chassis space.

[wpshivers]

I have been able to do some real world testing of my EcoTrek 800 system while I was waiting for a new Solar Controller a few months ago. So no charging from my solar panels to interfere with my readings.

Here is what I found testing each of my 4 EcoTrek 200 systems separately..

My Rig
2015/2016 CS Adventurous
Ecotrek 800 (Revision G, The last I heard Revision H is latest release.)
Voltstart
Underhood Generator

470w Solar Panels
I have reconfigured my solar panels to pair like sized panels serially, then connect these 3 sets of serial pairs in parallel to the Solar Controller. This results in highly efficient Solar charging system producing on average 1.78 kWh per day, more than doubling power production from when all panels were interconnected serially from the factory.

Diesel/Alde Hydronic heating system
Induction Cooktops (2)
No Propane
All the other normal CS Adventurous amenities.

EcoTrek Parasitic Draw..
After bringing each Ecotrek 200 (I have 4 Ecotrek 200's) up to full charge using either shore power or via the Underhood Generator (GU) and putting no load on the batteries from any appliances in my 2016 CS Adventurous this is what I found to be consistent after several tests of the internal BMS parasite draw.

It takes approximately four full days to reduce a single EcoTrek 200 battery to 20% capacity. At which point the EcoTrek BMS shuts the Ecotrek 200 down due to a low state of charge.

4 days = 96 hours
Ecotrek 200 capacity * 80% = 160 amps
160 amps * 13v = 2080 watts
2080 watts / 96 hours = 21.67 watts per hour...

Not the 60w published by Roadtrek.

I believe the 60w figure is the maximum the BMS will draw when it turns the internal heaters on to keep the batteries warm in sub-freezing temperatures.

Roadtrek could reduce this draw to almost nothing if they would go with a better relay latching system, it really is the only flaw in a otherwise excellent design.

For fun, I have this chart that has been thrown together by several of us fellow EcoTrek owners based on real world use.

EcoTrek 200 SOC
A Good Enough SOC Chart for Roadtrek EcoTreks

13.6 - 100% - 160 Amp-hours Remaining
13.5 - 90% - 140 Ahs
13.4 - 80% - 120 Ahs
13.3 - 70% - 100 Ahs
13.2 - 60% - 80 Ahs
13.1 - 50% - 60 Ahs
13.0 - 48% - 56 Ahs
12.9 - 46% - 52 Ahs
12.8 - 44% - 48 Ahs
12.7 - 42% - 44 Ahs
12.6 - 40% - 40 Ahs
12.5 - 30% - 20 Ahs - VoltStart Threshold (appx)
12.4 - 20% - 00 Ahs

EcoTreks are not perfect!

But I do like them now that I have lived with them for over two year and learned how to use them best.

I normally camp with a just single Ecotrek active. In this mode the 470w Solar keeps the Ecotrek 200 charged while running the 7.0 Cu ft fridge, lights and water pump and some lite usage of the inverter, (Watching TV) and Fantastic Fan. I also use a CPAP w/Humidifier whenever I sleep powered directly by 12vdc.

I switch on two EcoTreks when using the Induction Cooktops and/or Microwave. I use all four EcoTreks for up to 4 hours of Air Conditioning when needed.

When driving or when plugged into shore-power I turn all 4 EcoTreks on to insure they get fully charged. Driving for about 2-3 hours is all that is usually required to bring all 4 EcoTreks up to fully charged.

edited_20160518_111348 by William Shivers, on Flickr

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wpshivers

For fun, I have this chart that has been thrown together by several of us fellow EcoTrek owners based on real world use.

EcoTrek 200 SOC
A Good Enough SOC Chart for Roadtrek EcoTreks

13.6 - 100% - 160 Amp-hours Remaining
13.5 - 90% - 140 Ahs
13.4 - 80% - 120 Ahs
13.3 - 70% - 100 Ahs
13.2 - 60% - 80 Ahs
13.1 - 50% - 60 Ahs
13.0 - 48% - 56 Ahs
12.9 - 46% - 52 Ahs
12.8 - 44% - 48 Ahs
12.7 - 42% - 44 Ahs
12.6 - 40% - 40 Ahs
12.5 - 30% - 20 Ahs - VoltStart Threshold (appx)
12.4 - 20% - 00 Ahs

Thanks for taking the time to quantify the BMS parasitic drain. In future tests when comparing results with other owners remember that the VoltStart threshold may not be consistent because the module has been reconfigured since initial production which set the threshold for 12.4 volts. Current Voltstart modules now deliver with a threshold voltage of 12.8 volts. No explanation has been proffered by RT but it stands to reason that the reason for this threshold change is to decrease the depth of discharge which presumably increases the longevity of the battery. The consequence, of course, is that the engine-off run time will be substantially reduced before Voltstart kicks in.

Also, if comparing vehicle stats, ensure that all vehicles involved have identical Balmar regulator programming.

[Reed]

Have a 2002 Versatile 190. Son has been in solar since 1990 and installed solar/LFP system two years ago
415 W of solar
2x 180 Amp-hr (12 V nominal)Manzanita Micro LFP
2.5 kW PSWI

We travel extensively in Mexico where “dirty power” can destroy electronics. Therefore he installed 1200 W of battery chargers. We run entirely on battery for 12 V and 110 V AC. Have friends who plugged into power in Guanajuato and it was 220 V. Fried AC, microwave etc. We have run into reversed polarity and ungrounded pillars and wound up with hot chassis several times. We now have grounding wire and rod as standard usage. We did last six weeks on west coast of Mexico a year ago entirely on solar. One should always use a plug tester ($5).
Reed and Elaine

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Thanks for taking the time to quantify the BMS parasitic drain. In future tests when comparing results with other owners remember that the VoltStart threshold may not be consistent because the module has been reconfigured since initial production which set the threshold for 12.4 volts. Current Voltstart modules now deliver with a threshold voltage of 12.8 volts. No explanation has been proffered by RT but it stands to reason that the reason for this threshold change is to decrease the depth of discharge which presumably increases the longevity of the battery. The consequence, of course, is that the engine-off run time will be substantially reduced before Voltstart kicks in.

Also, if comparing vehicle stats, ensure that all vehicles involved have identical Balmar regulator programming.

I think they increased the voltage trigger for VoltStart in order to avoid having the inverter shut down due to low voltage when there is a high load from the air conditioner. In the end, it really doesn’t make much difference what the voltage trigger level is as long as it is high enough to not have the inverter shut down and low enough so that you can take full advantage of the VoltStart run cycle charge potential. If the VoltStart is set too high then the batteries will get fully charged in the middle of a VoltStart cycle and you would waste the charge energy available from VoltStart. In the end, the full potential energy is the initial charge of the batteries plus the charge potential from the total number of VoltStart cycles. This full energy is available over a range of VoltStart trigger voltages.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

I think they increased the voltage trigger for VoltStart in order to avoid having the inverter shut down due to low voltage when there is a high load from the air conditioner.

I don't think so. I did similar tests using the AC as a load with different battery configurations ranging from one to four and in no case did I experience an inverter shut down prior to BMS shut down. The inverter specs indicate that the inverter will energize with voltages as low as 10 volts and operationally doesn't even throw an alarm unless battery voltage at the inverter terminals drops to 10.5 volts. That said, I was never able to verify the accuracy of these specs because I always experienced BMS shutdown in the whereabouts of 12 volts.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/04...SER_MANUAL.pdf

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

I don't think so. I did similar tests using the AC as a load with different battery configurations ranging from one to four and in no case did I experience an inverter shut down prior to BMS shut down. The inverter specs indicate that the inverter will energize with voltages as low as 10 volts and operationally doesn't even throw an alarm unless battery voltage at the inverter terminals drops to 10.5 volts. That said, I was never able to verify the accuracy of these specs because I always experienced BMS shutdown in the whereabouts of 12 volts.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/04...SER_MANUAL.pdf

Very good, I don’t have Ecotreks or VoltStart so I base my guesses on owner reports and you have the results to show the Ecotreks shut down before the inverter. Since RT has control of the BMS design how did they ever set the VoltStart trigger voltage too low? Must not have done enough testing to determine a reasonable voltage trigger point...

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Very good, I don’t have Ecotreks or VoltStart so I base my guesses on owner reports and you have the results to show the Ecotreks shut down before the inverter. Since RT has control of the BMS design how did they ever set the VoltStart trigger voltage too low? Must not have done enough testing to determine a reasonable voltage trigger point...

Actually, I think the 12.4V threshold was just where it should be with respect to a reasonable depth of discharge while providing a decent engine-off period before the first trigger. AFAIK, the factory has not even published this change much less offering any rationale. I discovered this only by accident when testing a replacement unit, noticed the trigger point change and had it subsequently confirmed by a RT technician after factory consultation.

Two guesses as to why they have done this:

More likely Guess 1. is that since RT is on the hook for a six year warranty for these batteries, they want to discourage deep depth of discharges that shorten their life.

Less likely Guess 2. is that it's a defensive move addressing a hot Nations alternator that is incapable of supporting an AC load while simultaneously providing any significant battery recharge, particularly at engine idle. If the Voltstart sequence initiates at 12.4 Volts while the AC is running, after the 35 minute programmed sequence, very little recharge has been directed to the batteries resulting in a very short engine-off period before triggering the next Voltstart sequence and eventually causing what is described as a death spiral. While raising the Voltstart threshold to 12.8V won't prevent this from eventually occurring, perhaps at least the engine-off period between Voltstart triggers might be increased although I'm hard pressed to see why this would be the case.

[wpshivers]

One other gotcha Roadtrek introduced with Voltstart was they had two versions to begin with. One for AGM batteries (with a start point voltage lower than the Ecotrek module) and one for EcoTrek batteries with the higher start point voltage being discussed here.

Problem was the factory assemblers did not pay enough attention during assembly to insure the correct Voltstart module was installed for the battery type being used in the build....

Fortunately swapping a Voltstart module is fairly easy to do...

I don't think a "Deep" discharge of an Ecotrek module should be possible.

The BMS shuts the Ecotrek discharge side off at 20% capacity.

Which would be perfect except RT is now wiring the Inverter/Charger to the charge side of the Ecotrek. So there is nothing to stop an active Inverter from draining an Ecotrek module unless the BMS also shuts down the charge-side of the Ecotrek at some point besides freezing weather.