Lithium & 2nd Alternators Verses Onan Generators - Mike Mas

[avanti]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

The list below has been confirmed with conversations with a number of master up-fitters.

1) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to use the Mercedes engine for any lithium charging functions.

2) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to use any self-starting devices on the engine.

3) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted to use the engine for any stationary extended idling.

4) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to draw over 40 amps from the stock alternator.

I really, REALLY wanted to just stay out of this nonsense, but I just can't stand it when gross, unattributed inaccuracies are posted loudly, repeatedly and in bold type, especially when accompanied by constantly repeated claims of "100% accuracy" and "40 years of experience". Here are the facts:

I subscribe to the technical feed from the Upfitter's Portal (as cited by Marko above), so I see each and every technical change to the BEG. There are not "thousands of these restrictions" and they do not "change weekly". There have been seven each for MY2019 and MY2018 & earlier since 2016. Mostly they are practical advice like "don't paint over sensors", but occasionally they make technical changes. Here is the truth about each of above claims. Unlike the poster, I will provide citations:

1) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to use the Mercedes engine for any lithium charging functions.

There was indeed an update to the guidelines concerning charging additional batteries. The citation is:

SPRINTER - Adding Additional Batteries Technical Bulletin UM906/21
EVS Charleston, 05/25/2017

sprinter-adding-additional-batteries.pdf

It will not surprise you to learn that it does not proscribe the charging of lithium batteries. It DOES require that if there is a second battery in parallel with the starter battery it must be AGM. However, it explicitly permits the use of other chemistries on the other side of the current-limiting device which has always been required:

The charging current limiter (DC/DC converter) between the electrical system (vehicle battery) and additional battery allows for different battery technologies and additional batteries to be used.

[BEG 2019, page 239]

-----

2) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to use any self-starting devices on the engine.


There is no bulletin on this topic, and the ONLY mention of self-starting in the BEG concerns the auto start-stop system available in the gasoline engine only.

-----

3) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted to use the engine for any stationary extended idling.

There is a bulletin concerning the high-idle option:

BEG Addendum - High Idle (M53/MT4)
05/2017

beg-addendum-rpm-limit.pdf

It tweaks some parameters concerning the default RPM settings. It states nothing about extended idling. The BEG does not contain the word "stationary". The string "idle" occurs once, referring to the above-mentioned high-idle option. This claim is inaccurate.

-----

4) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to draw over 40 amps from the stock alternator

This statement is correct. It has been true for many years.

-----

the up-fitter is not allowed to drill even a single 1/4" hole any where on the entire chassis, not even on the flanges Mercedes provides for the body-makers.

There is a bulletin that clarifies where upfitters may and may not drill holes for MY2019 (because it is a new chassis):

BEG Addendum - MY2019 - Non-drilling/modification areas

addendum-sprinter-my19-non-drilling-areas.pdf

The claim that no holes may be drilled anywhere is, of course, nonsense.



I offer this contribution as an example of the dangers of believing stuff you read on the Internet when it is not accompanied by verifiable citations.

[Bud]

Lawyer Ambulance Chasers: It is illegal, unethical.

Now I'm wondering: Are there, should there be Forum Chasers by Mental Health Care professionals? Like Ambulance Chasing lawyers looking for physical 'impairments', maybe there are Mental Health Care Professionals here because they can easily find those with mental 'impairments' in need of assistance, care.

Bud

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by avanti

I offer this contribution as an example of the dangers of believing stuff you read on the Internet when it is not accompanied by verifiable citations.

Thanks avanti, normally a blog post from a user of some item contains good hands on information and typically doesn't have obvious biases. This article however has many red flags, the extreme hyperbole, lack of verifiable claims, only appeals to unverifiable authority, strange unsearchable screenshot like format. There seems to be an agenda here.

Mike was not so friendly to me in the other forum, complaining that I was using google to try and verify claims, had no idea what I was talking about, and that I was using math and physics to make assumptions.

I just want the truth, even if I am wrong that's fine, I am trying to learn accurate information about class B's, I know how my current gas class A performs I know how alternators and generators work, and it immediately stuck out that it was claimed a 3.0L diesel consumes more fuel at idle than my gas V10. Quick searches turned up plenty of info to contrary and nothing that came close to those numbers.

I would be interested to hear from members here what the true GPH consumption is at low idle and high idle, someone here must have their scan gauge calibrated and can run some tests .

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by avanti

I really, REALLY wanted to just stay out of this nonsense, but I just can't stand it when gross, unattributed inaccuracies are posted loudly, repeatedly and in bold type, especially when accompanied by constantly repeated claims of "100% accuracy" and "40 years of experience". Here are the facts:

I subscribe to the technical feed from the Upfitter's Portal (as cited by Marko above), so I see each and every technical change to the BEG. There are not "thousands of these restrictions" and they do not "change weekly". There have been seven each for MY2019 and MY2018 & earlier since 2016. Mostly they are practical advice like "don't paint over sensors", but occasionally they make technical changes. Here is the truth about each of above claims. Unlike the poster, I will provide citations:

1) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to use the Mercedes engine for any lithium charging functions.

There was indeed an update to the guidelines concerning charging additional batteries. The citation is:

Attachment 7574
It will not surprise you to learn that it does not proscribe the charging of lithium batteries. It DOES require that if there is a second battery in parallel with the starter battery it must be AGM. However, it explicitly permits the use of other chemistries on the other side of the current-limiting device which has always been required:
[BEG 2019, page 239]

-----

2) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to use any self-starting devices on the engine.


There is no bulletin on this topic, and the ONLY mention of self-starting in the BEG concerns the auto start-stop system available in the gasoline engine only.

-----

3) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted to use the engine for any stationary extended idling.

There is a bulletin concerning the high-idle option:


Attachment 7575

It tweaks some parameters concerning the default RPM settings. It states nothing about extended idling. The BEG does not contain the word "stationary". The string "idle" occurs once, referring to the above-mentioned high-idle option. This claim is inaccurate.

-----

4) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to draw over 40 amps from the stock alternator

This statement is correct. It has been true for many years.

-----

the up-fitter is not allowed to drill even a single 1/4" hole any where on the entire chassis, not even on the flanges Mercedes provides for the body-makers.

There is a bulletin that clarifies where upfitters may and may not drill holes for MY2019 (because it is a new chassis):


Attachment 7576

The claim that no holes may be drilled anywhere is, of course, nonsense.



I offer this contribution as an example of the dangers of believing stuff you read on the Internet when it is not accompanied by verifiable citations.

Avanti,

Thanks for confirming some of my points, the remainder are accurate as well. keep in mind, printed matter concerning up-fitters is not always accurate nor reflect current regulations. Inclusion of lithium systems in Sprinters as we see today, is relatively new, so rules are changed on a weekly basis. A call to Mercedes Technical on Monday, they will re-affirm all my statements.

All the information in my article is confirmed by over a dozen Master Up-fitters, Mercedes Technical, as well as a number of major lithium battery vendors s who currently install lithium systems in RV's.

Regards - Mike

[avanti]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Avanti,

Thanks for confirming some of my points, the remainder are accurate as well. keep in mind, printed matter concerning up-fitters is not always accurate nor reflect current regulations. Inclusion of lithium systems in Sprinters as we see today, is relatively new, so rules are changed on a weekly basis. A call to Mercedes Technical on Monday, they will re-affirm all my statements.

All the information in my article is confirmed by over a dozen Master Up-fitters, Mercedes Technical, as well as a number of major lithium battery vendors s who currently install lithium systems in RV's.

Regards - Mike

"Who are you going to believe -- me or your lying' eyes?".

[Bud]

"Inclusion of lithium systems in Sprinters as we see today, is relatively new"

Huh? Defiine "relatively new".

[booster]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned from the links Avanti gave on the "adding of batteries" bulletin is that it very plainly says "in parallel" with the existing chassis battery. That totally eliminates any of the standalone engine generator systems from that restriction, and I would assume would push it back onto the 8.5KW rating of the power take off.


IMO, giving statement of fact with no documentation to support that statement and then telling everyone else to go confirm it is pure and simple trolling. We see that a lot, unfortunately. Claiming to be an expert and 100% accurate doesn't change that, especially when there is real documentation presented that contradicts the claim.


Without documentation and/or data claims are certainly not proven true and often are just stated to try to back up some other also unproven claim.

[IdleUp]

Hey guys concerning my comments on drilling any holes on the Benz chassis structure, I happened to have this video bookmarked. This video is Dean of Leisure Travel Vans providing a factory tour. Keep in mind that Leisure is one of the largest vendors of Sprinter chassis, therefore Dean is more than up to speed on Mercedes requirements.

I encourage you to fast forward to 2:12 and listen to what my friend Dean says to the guys at Fit RV, which confirms my statement.

Enjoy - Mike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1hrVzhd4jw

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

One thing that hasn't been mentioned from the links Avanti gave on the "adding of batteries" bulletin is that it very plainly says "in parallel" with the existing chassis battery. That totally eliminates any of the standalone engine generator systems from that restriction

Yes. It also eliminates any battery that is behind a DC/DC converter, which in any event is necessary to enforce the 40 amp limitation. This is completely clear in the quote from the BEG 2019, page 239 reference that I provided. This has not been superseded by any bulletin. So, unless you believe that MB has been secretly telephoning each of these mythical upfitters individually and telling them to ignore their published guidelines, I think it is safe for us to move on from this particular topic.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Yes both engines at 8.5 kW. Not sure what you mean by an outboard bearing. They use an idler pulley to maintain belt tension. Here is full page about PTO from an earlier Sprinter BEG.
Attachment 7572

On a power take off type system that is a belt drive it was always common to see it driven by the crankshaft end and then there would be a big bracket that bolted to the block all the way out to beyond the added pulley for the PTO. That bracket would contain a good sized bearing to absorb a lot of the side load from the belt transferring large forces that would have to be handled by the front engine main bearing without the added bearing in place.

[gregmchugh]

The statement that Roadtrek could no longer get Sprinter vans from Mercedes is just complete hogwash, Mercedes is one of the major creditors in the receivership due to the number of Sprinters that were delivered to EHGNA but not yet paid for. When such obvious mistakes are in comments then one has to question the credibility of other info too.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Hey guys concerning my comments on drilling any holes on the Benz chassis structure, I happened to have this video bookmarked. This video is Dean of Leisure Travel Vans providing a factory tour. Keep in mind that Leisure is one of the largest vendors of Sprinter chassis, therefore Dean is more than up to speed on Mercedes requirements.

I encourage you to fast forward to 2:12 and listen to what my friend Dean says to the guys at Fit RV, which confirms my statement.

The bulletin that I provided is very clear as to what may and may not be drilled.

Your good friend Dean was pointing to the frame longitudinal members, which are part of the crash integrity structure and so have special limitations. Even there, though, the guidelines permit drilling is certain specified areas:

frame drill.jpg

This is getting kind of silly, and certainly tiresome.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

On a power take off type system that is a belt drive it was always common to see it driven by the crankshaft end and then there would be a big bracket that bolted to the block all the way out to beyond the added pulley for the PTO. That bracket would contain a good sized bearing to absorb a lot of the side load from the belt transferring large forces that would have to be handled by the front engine main bearing without the added bearing in place.

Here is what the Nation's setup looks like on my Sprinter I4 engine:

Nations pulley I4.jpg

[Bud]

"This is getting kind of silly, and certainly tiresome.

Not for IdleUp, he likes it.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by avanti

The bulletin that I provided is very clear as to what may and may not be drilled.

Your good friend Dean was pointing to the frame longitudinal members, which are part of the crash integrity structure and so have special limitations. Even there, though, the guidelines permit drilling is certain specified areas:

Attachment 7577

This is getting kind of silly, and certainly tiresome.

I suspect you will not get in the last word on this. It was tiresome many responses ago.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Bud

"This is getting kind of silly, and certainly tiresome.

Not for IdleUp, he likes it.

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

I suspect you will not get in the last word on this. It was tiresome many responses ago.

You are both right, of course. I'm out.

[Davydd]

You’re feeding the troll who is on this forum for just self-serving reasons and spreading totally inaccurate information. You notice how he ignores everything you say unless there is something he thinks he can refute, yet his refutations are totally inaccurate.

[Bud]

Anyone know: Sometimes trolls have groupies, does IdleUp have any known groupies on any forum?

Tks, Bud

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Bud

Anyone know: Sometimes trolls have groupies, does IdleUp have any known groupies on any forum?

Tks, Bud

He is quite famous in the RC Helicopter world...

[Bud]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

He is quite famous in the RC Helicopter world...

I thought that was mostly occurring in IdleUp's mind.

Bud