Lithium & 2nd Alternators Verses Onan Generators - Mike Mas

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by jharrell

Do you have any proof Mercedes does not allow lithium charging? I think that would be of interest to a lots of people here. Why would they care how power is used? Can I charge lead acid but not lithium? Makes no sense. There still seems to be upfitters doing lithium main engine charging such as Advanced RV, Sportsmobile, etc.

Limiting stock alternator pull is reasonable and I wouldn't doubt that is Mercedes recommendation, disallowing lithium charging from engine, regardless of alternator makes absolutely no sense. I can charge Lithium through a 40A DC-DC charger and be within their stock alternator pull recommendations, 40A is 40A regardless of battery chemistry or you can add a secondary alternator and just pull whatever wattage from the engine directly again regardless of battery chemistry.

You seem to be conflating stock alternator issues with stationary idle issues. If your going to add an entire secondary properly designed propane system and generator to the vehicle then the equivalent would a properly designed and sized secondary alternator. Using the stock alternator would never be recommended for any kind of high power idle charging.

"Insane heat" seems like more hyperbole, producing the same power from an ICE with similar efficiency will produce similar heat. A diesel engine is more efficient than a propane otto at converting heat to mechanical energy it would normally produce less heat for the same power. You seem to be confusing temperature with heat. Diesels run at higher temps which make them more efficient which means they produce less waste heat per unit of energy converted.

Biggest problem is the fuel numbers again, by all accounts the sprinter consumes around .5 GPH at high idle, yet you claim 3-4x times the fuel consumption conservatively (1.5 - 2 GPH!), in fact you claim a sprinter high idle charging consumes as much fuel as its does pushing itself down the road at 45 mph or a similarly sized diesel generator producing ~20kw! That would be what 30-35hp or ~25kw of driveshaft power, which is going where exactly? Completely preposterous.

jharrell - great comments. You are spot on - there is nothing from Mercedes that says you can't charge lithium batteries. The Sprinter Body and Equipment Guideline (BEG) does say you need to limit maximum charging current from the OEM alternator to 40A for auxiliary batteries. I've attached the exact words from the BEG.

If you need more charging current then an additional alternator is needed and designed for on the Sprinter diesel engine. The second image below explains that 8.5 kW is available for the second alternator.

Mike Mas sure knows how to sling the BS!

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by booster

Idleup said:

This is not my understanding on what "partial charge technology". From what I have seen is that it refers to the ability of the carbon batteries to run in a mid charge range for quite a while and number of recharge cycles with losing capacity when you do get a full recharge on them. The 50% rule you are stating as gospel is actually pretty much bogus IMO, and there are several discussions on this fourm with data on the subject. Proper recharging parameters on a AGM will bring it back to full after an 80% discharge from all the data I have seen. Single deep discharges are not the major killer of AGMs, it is short charging them. Very few RV chargers are capable of recharging them to full consistently without over or under charging them. The carbon batteries may well get longer cycle life than AGM, as they should do justify the cost, but we really haven't seen any real data from any users yet, so that will be interesting when people have had them a while. Personally, the biggest thing they have to offer would be partial charge cycling without damage if that turns out to be correct and if the time they spend in partial charge area is long enough to do some extended ofgrid camping with partial recoveries.

I think Mike (aka IdleUp) mixed "Carbon Microcell technology" or "Carbon Foam technology" with "Partial State of Charge (PSOC)" and made up his "partial charge technology"!

Additionally, it appears to read as though he thinks that there is a requirement to discharge a battery to 50% SOC before recharging! Who knows what he's trying to convey though.

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

I think Mike (aka IdleUp) mixed "Carbon Microcell technology" or "Carbon Foam technology" with "Partial State of Charge (PSOC)" and made up his "partial charge technology"!

Additionally, it appears to read as though he thinks that there is a requirement to discharge a battery to 50% SOC before recharging! Who knows what he's trying to convey though.

Having lots of buzzwords that don't mean much must make an expert? There is so much misinformation in this stuff, I hope nobody believes it. Did you see the other thread where one of the battery life tests was done on a precooled van and after dark?


Is the front engine takeoff MB mentions in Boxsters post the same bracketry and such as the Nations kits use for the RV's? At 8.5kw, I would expect there might be need for an outboard bearing and drive right off of crankshaft end, like a true PTO would do sometimes.

[markopolo]

Yes, I saw the added qualifiers of it being a pre-cooled van and after the sun had gone down. It's a start.

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Yes, I saw the added qualifiers of it being a pre-cooled van and after the sun had gone down. It's a start.

The more information about we get about how the claims were determined, the better we can try to understand them, so absolutely a start, and not what anyone would have guessed so a good data point.

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Yes, I saw the added qualifiers of it being a pre-cooled van and after the sun had gone down. It's a start.

You know I'm so glad you RV experts dropped by to help me with my RV'ing.

I can see now after your comments about running my AC at night was wrong, I guess I've had this whole camping thing "Flip-Flopped" for 40 years now!

You see, I thought when you went camping, you do stuff during the day, then use the RV at night with the AC on to sleep comfortable, but it seems as if you guys must sleep during the hottest part of the day with the AC on and do stuff all night????

No wonder your guys were were so confused with my 6-8 hours run time estimates !

Regards - Mike

[booster]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

You know I'm so glad you RV experts dropped by to help me with my RV'ing.

I can see now after your comments about running my AC at night was wrong, I guess I've had this whole camping thing "Flip-Flopped" for 40 years now!

You see, I thought when you went camping, you do stuff during the day, then use the RV at night with the AC on to sleep comfortable, but it seems as if you guys must sleep during the hottest part of the day with the AC on and do stuff all night????

No wonder your guys were were so confused with my 6-8 hours run time estimates !

Regards - Mike

You are again missing the point. We see a lot of folks here who want to run AC off batteries, and although overnight is sometimes a goal, a very large amount of them want to be able to keep pets cool during the day, in hot sun, and in a wide open parking lot of asphalt. That is why everyone needs to know the test conditions you based your run time on as they may or may not be looking to do the same thing as you do. Listing run time hours for AC on batteries without knowing if it applies to how you are going to use the van is essentially useless information IMO. Why are you so set in not letting folks know the data?



It really doesn't matter if we, or you, is flip flopped. We are not here to attack "your RVing" but you should also not attack anyone who uses the AC differently than you do. The facts are that many people are looking for battery life numbers based on other than night testing, plain and simple. If you are going to give those kind of numbers, you need to tell all these "backwards" people how you got them so they can tell if they apply to them or not. This is just plain old common sense that also happens to line up with standard test procedures.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by booster

... Is the front engine takeoff MB mentions in Boxsters post the same bracketry and such as the Nations kits use for the RV's? At 8.5kw, I would expect there might be need for an outboard bearing and drive right off of crankshaft end, like a true PTO would do sometimes.

Yes the bracket for the Mercedes V-6 diesel is the same one used by Nations for their Sprinter kit. Nations appear to use a custom bracket for the 4-cylinder diesel.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Yes the bracket for the Mercedes V-6 diesel is the same one used by Nations for their Sprinter kit. Nations appear to use a custom bracket for the 4-cylinder diesel.

Do they rate the 6 and 4 cylinder both at the 8.5Kw? Does the MB bracket use an outboard bearing?

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

You know I'm so glad you RV experts dropped by to help me with my RV'ing.

I can see now after your comments about running my AC at night was wrong, I guess I've had this whole camping thing "Flip-Flopped" for 40 years now!

You see, I thought when you went camping, you do stuff during the day, then use the RV at night with the AC on to sleep comfortable, but it seems as if you guys must sleep during the hottest part of the day with the AC on and do stuff all night????

No wonder your guys were were so confused with my 6-8 hours run time estimates !

Regards - Mike

Its funny because that would be a really good application of a alternator based charging system with large lithium pack. The van runs all day off a little solar solar with minimal loads while your out and about then the a/c runs off say a 10 kw/h lithium pack all night for 8 hours, then in the morning you high idle for under 2 hours to recharge at 8kw.

Not that the a/c would need to run continuous for 8 hours you could do a smaller pack. This is a much less power hungry situation than trying to keep the RV cool in direct sun all day and no worry about quiet time.

BTW as I pointed out in the other forum Volta responded to me and also disagrees with your article and also has no idea where you are getting the fuel burn numbers as they do lots of sprinters with no alternator failures.

Here is Advanced RV talking about the Volta system running the A/C for 8 hours and being able to run the A/C while charging:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofCcnxJxzeE

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by booster

Do they rate the 6 and 4 cylinder both at the 8.5Kw? Does the MB bracket use an outboard bearing?

Yes both engines at 8.5 kW. Not sure what you mean by an outboard bearing. They use an idler pulley to maintain belt tension. Here is full page about PTO from an earlier Sprinter BEG.
IMG_0534.jpg

[IdleUp]

Hey guys - I did want to mention that Mercedes recently changed their guidelines and regulations for cab & chassis Master Up-Fitters. Due to numerous engine, turbo and alternator warranty claims as a result of extended stationary idling for charging lithium batteries, new guidelines have been established which I listed below.

In addition to no lithium charging, they are not allowing any engine self-start systems to be incorporated. They are also requiring up-fitters to limit amperage draw from the stock alternator to only 40 amps, however, I heard rumor that Mercedes is considering increasing this to 90 amps, which is why "Charge Mate" recently released their new 90 amp regulator, I provided a link below:

https://www.mastervolt.com/news/mast...om-one-source/

The list below has been confirmed with conversations with a number of master up-fitters.

1) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to use the Mercedes engine for any lithium charging functions.

2) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to use any self-starting devices on the engine.

3) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted to use the engine for any stationary extended idling.

4) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to draw over 40 amps from the stock alternator.

As many of you might know, Roadtrex lost their Master Up-Fitters license with Mercedes as the result of hundreds of engine warranty claims from stationary engine idling,

Regards - Mike

[Bud]

"The list below has been confirmed with conversations with a number of master up-fitters."

Please provide the names of the master up-fitters and authorized representative you spoke with since this is the only evidence provided.

[IdleUp]

As I stated previously, all the statements in all my writings and above are 100% factual and accurate. I don't make a practice of publishing the names and phone numbers of my associates, however, you're free to do your own research to confirm my facts.

Enjoy - Mike

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Hey guys - I did want to mention that Mercedes recently changed their guidelines and regulations for cab & chassis Master Up-Fitters. Due to numerous engine, turbo and alternator warranty claims as a result of extended stationary idling for charging lithium batteries, new guidelines have been established which I listed below.

In addition to no lithium charging, they are not allowing any engine self-start systems to be incorporated. They are also requiring up-fitters to limit amperage draw from the stock alternator to only 40 amps, however, I heard rumor that Mercedes is considering increasing this to 90 amps, which is why "Charge Mate" recently released their new 90 amp regulator, I provided a link below:

https://www.mastervolt.com/news/mast...om-one-source/

The list below has been confirmed with conversations with a number of master up-fitters.

1) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to use the Mercedes engine for any lithium charging functions.

2) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to use any self-starting devices on the engine.

3) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted to use the engine for any stationary extended idling.

4) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to draw over 40 amps from the stock alternator.

As many of you might know, Roadtrex lost their Master Up-Fitters license with Mercedes as the result of hundreds of engine warranty claims from stationary engine idling,

Regards - Mike

Are they allowed to add usb ports to charge cellphones which use lithium batteries? That is a lithium charging function....

Why can you use the engine to charge a lead acid bank but not lithium even at the same charge rate?

Sounds like I can run a roof air conditioner off the a second alternator but no lithium?

Do you have anything showing the exact wording of this from Mercedes? When did these guideline come out, what does recently mean?

Are you talking about Roadtrek or "Roadtrex" of which I can find no references to. Roadtrek lost their master upfitter status in 2017.

Advanced-RV is still a master upfitter and is still doing lithium charging systems in their RV's as their most popular upfit option vs propane. Are you saying Advanced-RV will lose their status and/or stop doing a second alternator with lithium?

[Arlo]

Last weekend at ARV Fest 2019 the MB van division Technical Operations Manager “assigned to provide Technical support for RV OEMS” (quote taken from his bio in the program guide) directly contradicted points 1, 2, and 3 above.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by Arlo

Last weekend at ARV Fest 2019 the MB van division Technical Operations Manager “assigned to provide Technical support for RV OEMS” (quote taken from his bio in the program guide) directly contradicted points 1, 2, and 3 above.

I'm not surprised at all. #4 has been known for a long time and is clearly explained in the Body and Equipment Guidelines (BEG).

[IdleUp]

Just so everyone understands - I'm well up to speed on this Mercedes matter. I have numerous contacts, friends and associates in Charleston I communicate with.

The restrictions I listed which are imposed on up-fitters are for the manufacturing phase and strictly enforced by unscheduled inspections. Let me also say, there are thousands of these restrictions and they change weekly, which are conveyed to the up-fitters. As an example, the up-fitter is not allowed to drill even a single 1/4" hole any where on the entire chassis, not even on the flanges Mercedes provides for the body-makers.

Mercedes controls where and how their vehicles are manufactured. If you don't follow their rules, its simple, you lose your up-fitter license and they don't sell you vehicles any longer. Roadtrex lost their ability to buy Mercedes chassis because they felt they could make their own rules, it don't work that way.

For the question about USB ports, the answer is "No" you can not penetrate the wire harness or any of its outlets in any manner. There is provisions where the body builder can tap into the electrical grid, that is where they can provide power for the RV and for house battery charging and user options. This is how they will now control how many amps you draw off their alternator. They decide 40 amps "their regulator" assures that's all you get.

After you buy a van you can do as you like, however if a dealer flags a warranty problem which caused an issue, you just just bought yourself some parts and labor.

Keep in mind guys, there's a black box in these chassis as well!

Enjoy - Mike

[markopolo]

It's very easy to obtain a copy of the BEG - https://www.upfitterportal.com/en-us/tech-info/beg

Technical Bulletins are here - https://www.upfitterportal.com/en-us...info/bulletins

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Mercedes controls where and how their vehicles are manufactured. If you don't follow their rules, its simple, you lose your up-fitter license and they don't sell you vehicles any longer. Roadtrex lost their ability to buy Mercedes chassis because they felt they could make their own rules, it don't work that way.

Yet ARV is still a master upfitter and does alternators and lithium's, this does not match your claims. Who is "Roadtrex"?

Originally Posted by IdleUp

For the question about USB ports, the answer is "No" you can not penetrate the wire harness or any of its outlets in any manner. There is provisions where the body builder can tap into the electrical grid, that is where they can provide power for the RV and for house battery charging and user options. This is how they will now control how many amps you draw off their alternator. They decide 40 amps "their regulator" assures that's all you get.

What are you saying, can a lithium battery of any size be charged from the engine, yes or no? You seem to be mincing words to say they limit a 40 amp draw from the stock alternator, beyond that the 40a amps can be used for any purpose including charging lithium, be it in phones or laptops or attached to chassis.

This is a very different claim than:

1) Up-fitters are "Not Permitted" to use the Mercedes engine for any lithium charging functions.

Its convenient you will not share your sources or point to any publicly available documentation, I have contacted ARV myself to see if they have heard of these guidelines as it would greatly effect their production, but it sounds like at their recent rally Mercedes representatives contradicted your claims, how do you explain that?

Here is the page from the latest Mercedes BEG, it specifically states for allowing different battery technologies and makes no mention of disallowing lithium anywhere nor in any bulletin listed:

Mercedes Current limit.JPG