Lithium & 2nd Alternators Verses Onan Generators - Mike Mas

[avanti]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

Like everything else, the question of a generator is how often will you use it. If you are dry camping in one place for weeks at a time, then having a separate generator may be a necessity. Especially if you want to live in air conditioned comfort.

I agree with your point. It is just that many of us don't quite find that being simultaneously pummeled by the A/C above and the Onan from below qualifies as "comfort". I agree with George that a truly practical (quiet, robust) genset is technically possible, and if I could buy one I probably would. But, the fact that I can't makes me a big second-alternator enthusiast. I still have my Onan on board "just in case". But, I haven't used it in any meaningful way in years.

Still rooting for WATT and their propane fuel cell...

[GeorgeRa]

20 years ago, I had 1999 Ford F-350 7.3l Diesel with 2 alternators from the factory. If I recall correctly there were around 115A each. So there nothing new regarding 2 alternators on board, different reasons for Powerstrokes and for today’s underhood generators.

I repeat my dream, 300-500W power plant, quiet enough to run 24/7 if needed.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

I agree with your point. It is just that many of us don't quite find that being simultaneously pummeled by the A/C above and the Onan from below qualifies as "comfort". I agree with George that a truly practical (quiet, robust) genset is technically possible, and if I could buy one I probably would. But, the fact that I can't makes me a big second-alternator enthusiast. I still have my Onan on board "just in case". But, I haven't used it in any meaningful way in years.

Still rooting for WATT and their propane fuel cell...

I had an interesting conversation with an Onan engineer and developer when he answered a Craigslist ad for a chop saw of all things. Die hard tinker of neat stuff, it appears and he even has a functioning Stirling engine in his home shop. He as said there was really almost no chance of a small size RV generator redo from Onan and would expect the current on to discontinue if emission rules or sales dictated it. Too small a market. Whether other brands think the same is probably likely as nobody has jumped in and Onan is the only one left.


That said, in a small van I don't know if even a quiet Honda would be all that great once mounted to the van. You still have the exhaust to deal with and any noise and vibration in very close proximity. There likely is a reason a lot of DP class A's have the generator way in front and far from the daily life in the RV.



If you are in an area where noise isn't and issue, from a livability in the van point of view perhaps a remote generator would actually be the best if it could be made more convenient for storage, moving, fueling, etc. At least you wouldn't have it in a tin can with you while in use.


I would agree that the alternate energy sources are biggest hope for better solution for those that use lots of power and need AC as none of the existing technologies are all that great.

[Mfturner]

Thank you Avanti, this needed called out, mea culpa.

Rereading in actual detail, I stand by all but my first sentence from my earlier post. The article itself has a lot of nonsense, I guess I was just thinking that there are upsides and downsides to most setups, and just because I like my Volta setup doesn't mean I might not do something else for a different usage model. But his arguments for problem with second alternator, the main focus upon rereading, aren't good ones. There is a link at the bottom to his Newmar New Aire page, that might explain a few things if that is his main RV, his usage would likely be very different than mine, with the noisy Onan better insulated from his living space.

[Davydd]

I'm trying to be realistic. I don't dry camp for weeks at a time at least in one place without driving. If that became a desire a trailer might be more practical as in use the right tool for the job, use the right kind of RV for the desire. When I had an Onan generator with my first two Bs I seldom used it on the road except in emergency situations when the batteries got too low and sometimes to brew a pot of coffee or short uses of the microwave. Ultimately, I had many more hours dutifully "exercising" it monthly for maintenance than actual use. When it got hot, I did what I did tent camping for 40 years. I went outside and had a nice screen tent if it rained or the bugs got too bad. But in reality I just try not to punish myself traveling in hot temperatures if I can help it. I can count on my fingers on one hand the few times it was unbearable.

I don't care to talk about the future energy systems. I think the discussion is what is feasible or available now. It's just a static diversion. When someone puts a WATT system in an RV whether it is DIY or an upfitter, then I might be interested. I've been pretty much an early adopter.

In my morning exercise at the gym I listened to a podcast from the Wendlands where they interviewed Battleborn. The Battleborn exec closed with "Lead is dead" and Mike Wendland pulled that as the podcast title. The interview was topical to this thread. You don't have to have lithium batteries, second alternator or Onan to boondock. The Wendlands went with AGMs, I think 2 batteries, and they still boondock. They are on the fence whether to upgrade to lithium batteries, though they had them before.

You can live off the grid in a B if you know how. Many of you already know that. I knew it. I'm just spoiled. When I stop for fuel, my wife will brew two cups of coffee in the Keurig in the time it takes to fill the tank. I like 120v AC power all the time to not sacrifice electrical functions while boondocking. I don't like having to deal with propane (and I don't have it.) That's why I like high amp lithium battery banks, inverter/chargers to handle every appliance and the second alternator efficiency for driving and not having campsite noise be it idling or an Onan.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

………………………..I have 9600 watts of AGM batteries in my 2015 Etrek ……………………..

Interesting, you pulling a lot of current from these batteries 9600[W] / 12[V] = 800 [A], that is a lot of oomph. Congratulations.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

…………………………….. He as said there was really almost no chance of a small size RV generator redo from Onan and would expect the current on to discontinue if emission rules or sales dictated it. Too small a market. Whether other brands think the same is probably likely as nobody has jumped in and Onan is the only one left……………………….

It is unfortunate and I agree that Onan will not step get into this type of development.

A startup company licensing good basic engine/generator and developing a flat silencing shell for it could work. Or getting a Chinese company interested in this market could work. Contrary to LPG fuels cells difficult technology, small engine and generator technology exists. It is a business decision.

A good example is Eberspacher/Espar diesel heater, simple technology for about $750 to $2500. exists. This one is from China and this market is likely smaller than a RV small generator one. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...vYzSWgvfLSi824

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Or getting a Chinese company interested in this market could work. Contrary to LPG fuels cells difficult technology, small engine and generator technology exists. It is a business decision.

Do Chinese companies EVER make a business decision other than to copy exactly some product that is proven both technically and commercially?

[Not saying that that is bad, just that they are not known innovators]

[RossWilliams]

Theoretically 800ah, if you assume a 50% average DOD and 80% at most then considerably less than that. And even less if I tried drawing that much power over a brief period for the convection oven, instant hot water or air conditioner. And operating the inverter required for those uses draws an additional 100w per hour. If used in below freezing or below zero weather the batteries produce considerably less power. People tend to look at the math under ideal circumstances and ignore the reality that circumstances are rarely ideal.

My guess is that with lithium batteries requiring less space and weighing less as their price falls we will get to a point where battery storage will be the only source of cabin power for most RV's. But we are not really there yet except for those of us who carefully manage our usage.

[RossWilliams]

Avanti-

The idea the Chinese are not innovative is a myth. There is a reason the US is working so hard to prevent them from taking over the 5G cell market in Europe and Canada among other places. Its always a mistake to start believing your own propaganda.

[booster]

Cost aside, I don't think storage of energy is the biggest issue with the lighter lithium, but certainly is with lead acid. The limiting factor on any power system is likely going to get the point on not being able to supply enough replenishment with the current methods. Use it and you have to replace it.


I think there probably will be a limit to how much power they can pull off of the engine as an accessory drive on a belt and Volta may be getting close or there already. Nobody will know until a variety of engines age a while with hard working Volta systems. Perhaps we will see a return of power take off systems.



There is really going to be a need for a continuous, large, invisible, power generating system that doesn't need to be driving or making a lot of noise and pollution, IMO. What that could be I have no idea beyond fuel cells.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

Theoretically 800ah, if you assume a 50% average DOD and 80% at most then considerably less than that. And even less if I tried drawing that much power over a brief period for the convection oven, instant hot water or air conditioner. And operating the inverter required for those uses draws an additional 100w per hour. If used in below freezing or below zero weather the batteries produce considerably less power. People tend to look at the math under ideal circumstances and ignore the reality that circumstances are rarely ideal.

My guess is that with lithium batteries requiring less space and weighing less as their price falls we will get to a point where battery storage will be the only source of cabin power for most RV's. But we are not really there yet except for those of us who carefully manage our usage.

My previous reply was in regards to units, batteries store energy so units of measure must be energy units like for example [Whr] or [Ah] @12V or Joules. Battery capacity stated in Watts is meaningless, Watt is a unit of power.

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

My previous reply was in regards to units, batteries store energy so units of measure must be energy units like for example [Whr] or [Ah] @12V or Joules. Battery capacity stated in Watts is meaningless, Watt is a unit of power.

I fear this will all fall on deaf ears, as it just seems that a lot of people don't really care that they are comparing apples to oranges to hand grenades by doing it.



It is as if saying your van's speed is 50 miles or you fuel economy is 15 miles. Very confusing sometimes to figure out what is going on. I think a lot of it has to do with the using of incorrect terms by manufacturers and salesman to try to make their products look better than they are so people think the terms and numbers are interchangeable.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

Avanti-

The idea the Chinese are not innovative is a myth. There is a reason the US is working so hard to prevent them from taking over the 5G cell market in Europe and Canada among other places. Its always a mistake to start believing your own propaganda.

Uh... Best check your facts.
The first 5G chips were produced by Qualcom and Intel. Verizon and AT&T are pioneering deployment. It is true that the Chinese are being very aggressive at 5G, but that is called "rapid following", not "innovating". Name a single genuinely new product of any significance that originated in China.

Obviously, they are very good at "taking over" markets of all kinds, including 5G. I give them great credit for this. But this is not "innovation".

BTW: The reason that "the US is working so hard to prevent them from taking over the 5G cell market in Europe and Canada among other places" has primarily to do with fear of cyber espionage enabled by potential government-mandated Trojan horses embedded in the 5G hardware.

I have spent enough time in China to have a feel for their strengths, and they are many. At this stage of their development, though, innovation isn't one of them.

[RossWilliams]

"China's Huawei Technologies unveiled the world's first 5G modem and compatible smartphone Thursday "

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Chi...lf-sufficiency

And no, it isn't entirely new. But then nothing is.

https://www.techworld.com/picture-ga...china-3641347/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael.../#f1e4b87273d9

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/connect/...gy-innovation/

https://research.stlouisfed.org/publ...ogy-diffusion/

https://www.techinasia.com/china-innovation

[RossWilliams]

"Battery capacity stated in Watts is meaningless"

No it isn't, its just a shortened version of watts/hour. 9600 watts means the batteries will provide 1 watt for 9600 hours or 10 watts for 960 or 100 watts for 96 etc. What is meaningless is stating either a battery's Amp/hours or Volts independently. Watts, as used in battery sizing, accounts for both.

And none of them measure how much energy is stored. They measure how much electricity the battery produces from the energy stored.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

"Battery capacity stated in Watts is meaningless"

No it isn't, its just a shortened version of watts/hour. 9600 watts means the batteries will provide 1 watt for 9600 hours or 10 watts for 960 or 100 watts for 96 etc. What is meaningless is stating either a battery's Amp/hours or Volts independently. Watts, as used in battery sizing, accounts for both.

Battery capacity in Watts, indeed a short version, I never seen yet manufacturers of batteries describing capacity in watts, but, if you say so.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

I fear this will all fall on deaf ears, as it just seems that a lot of people don't really care that they are comparing apples to oranges to hand grenades by doing it.



It is as if saying your van's speed is 50 miles or you fuel economy is 15 miles. Very confusing sometimes to figure out what is going on. I think a lot of it has to do with the using of incorrect terms by manufacturers and salesman to try to make their products look better than they are so people think the terms and numbers are interchangeable.

Indeed, Ross just provided a prime example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REWeBzGuzCc

[booster]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

"Battery capacity stated in Watts is meaningless"

No it isn't, its just a shortened version of watts/hour. 9600 watts means the batteries will provide 1 watt for 9600 hours or 10 watts for 960 or 100 watts for 96 etc. What is meaningless is stating either a battery's Amp/hours or Volts independently. Watts, as used in battery sizing, accounts for both.

No, watts is volts times amps so is instantaneous power and without a given time factor it is useless for energy but is needed to determine power being delivered at any moment, eg 100 watt lightbulb, 1500 watt heater. So you can use miles for speed, too? Gallons for gallons per minute, hours, or second? This is physics not shorthand. Units matter, a lot. It is also watt-hr not watt/hr (as in watts delivered in one hour vs watts per hour which is not even a term.


AH and volts are mutually exclusive. and both are needed to calc the actual energy capacity of the battery in watt-hours or Joules. A better rating would be in watt-hours for energy storage, no doubt, but not watts. We do need both to calc total energy for sure. But volts in particular is a standalone that defines the system voltage so not at all related to energy at that point. The RV industry has gotten into the habit over the years, it appears, to assume all systems are going to be 12v, but they certainly aren't any more. Many of us have long stated that watt-hours was a better rating, and in the Volta discussions that is what is almost always used because of the higher voltage of the system.


If you go to buy a battery, however, the first thing they are going to ask for is volts because that is needed as a standalone. You can then add AH or W-Hr to define the capacity at that voltage. You can't buy a battery based on just watts or watt-hr callout without more information.


All done now.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

"Battery capacity stated in Watts is meaningless"

No it isn't, its just a shortened version of watts/hour. 9600 watts means the batteries will provide 1 watt for 9600 hours or 10 watts for 960 or 100 watts for 96 etc. What is meaningless is stating either a battery's Amp/hours or Volts independently. Watts, as used in battery sizing, accounts for both.

And none of them measure how much energy is stored. They measure how much electricity the battery produces from the energy stored.

Specifying battery capacity in Watts is totally a fiction of Jim Hamill’s marketing where he pointed out to me when I questioned it that his customers didn’t need to have valid engineering units they were happy with using watts. Total BS but that is to be expected from the marketing stuff coming out of Roadtrek.

9600 watt hours or 800 AH at 12 volts or 400 AH at 24 volts all are valid capacity specs for your eTrek 8 x 6v x 200AH battery bank which is wired as a 24 volt battery bank with a tap at the middle of the bank to provide 12v power.

9600 watts is pure Bogus and an affront to anyone with a science or engineering education where valid scientific/engineering units are one of the first things learned. Jim Hammill obfuscated many of the actual performance capabilities of the RT electrical system but he did do a good job to cover up the issues which are now coming home to roost with all the problems that owners have to resolve without any help from the 6 year warranty. And that is all this armchair engineer has to say at the moment...