Lithium/Alternator/Inverter Package from Xantrex

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

The new Sprinter will have same 2.1L 4-cylinder and 3.0L V-6 diesels. So the second alternator mountings should be the same. The NA gas engine will be a 2.4L 4-cylinder used on other Mercedes vehicles, but no details were offered on the performance specs. No mention of going to a 48V mild-hybrid system. But the really good news is they are dropping that old NAG-1, 5-speed automatics transmission for a newer 9G-Tronic, 9-speed automatic.

Yes that 9 speed trans looks very sophisticated!
Sorry for diverting that thread toward the new Sprinter. Thanks Boxster1971 for confirming these details. What's the launch date for the Sprinter in NA? Will they wait to build them when the new US plant is operational?



The long awaited (1200 euros) assisted sliding door option.

https://youtu.be/Vqk-vWwtv8k?t=6m1s

.

[Boxster1971]

Just read the ARV story posted by Davydd and followed link to sale listing for the van with 48V system. It is loaded with the Volta 48V system, VB Airsuspension, E&P Hydraulic Leveling and a lot more... they are asking $334,308.

https://advanced-rv.com/portfolio-it...b-rv-for-sale/

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by GeorgeB

Yes that 9 speed trans looks very sophisticated!
Sorry for diverting that thread toward the new Sprinter. Thanks Boxster1971 for confirming these details. What's the launch date for the Sprinter in NA? Will they wait to build them when the new US plant is operational? ...

Yes - everything I've read from Daimler news releases say we won't see new Sprinter in USA and Canada until they get the new plant in South Carolina online.

Edit: After reading the ARV Escape story I see the Volta batteries have to be at 43*F to be charged. That sure means they need heaters.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Just read the ARV story posted by Davydd and followed link to sale listing for the van with 48V system. It is loaded with the Volta 48V system, VB Airsuspension, E&P Hydraulic Leveling and a lot more... they are asking $334,308.

https://advanced-rv.com/portfolio-it...b-rv-for-sale/

You can buy a pretty nice house around here for that much Of course they also have a used one for $322K.

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Just read the ARV story posted by Davydd and followed link to sale listing for the van with 48V system. It is loaded with the Volta 48V system, VB Airsuspension, E&P Hydraulic Leveling and a lot more... they are asking $334,308.
https://advanced-rv.com/portfolio-it...b-rv-for-sale/

Just read the thread on the Volta in this forum

Yes it's a very expensive coach but as Davydd points out:

Originally Posted by Davydd

...So far, ARV is not in the business of customer volume or cost reduction when it comes to components. They go after the best available and apparently leave no stone unturned. Their customers rely on this approach. I know I do.

At least they are trying new systems and in a way asking clients to invest their disposable income in the R&D.

Will it help affordable campers be eventually more efficient? I have doubts.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by GeorgeB

Just read the thread on the Volta in this forum

Yes it's a very expensive coach but as Davydd points out:...

At least they are trying new systems and in a way asking clients to invest their disposable income in the R&D...

Agree - ARV is doing great things to push the technology. At least now I know about how much I'll need to buy mine in 2022 when my current Sprinter is 10 years old with 200,000 miles on it.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Yes - everything I've read from Daimler news releases say we won't see new Sprinter in USA and Canada until they get the new plant in South Carolina online.

Edit: After reading the ARV Escape story I see the Volta batteries have to be at 43*F to be charged. That sure means they need heaters.

Of course! It is well known lithium batteries don't accept a charge under 32 degrees without damage. That's battery temperature, not ambient. They set the thermostat to 43 degrees for heat to come on and then it is intermittent at that and they didn't realize they didn't install the heaters or felt they didn't need them until it got down to 14*F. When lithium batteries are in use they produce internal heat. My heaters seldom come on unless ambient is in the low 20s. The 43 degrees is just an optimum temperature to maintain.

The batteries are enclosed in a sealed insulated box with electric heating pads sandwiched in between the battery banks. I have two 5 amp pads and yes that is 240ah off the batteries in a 24 hour day if they come on constantly. As I have said, they don't and I suspect many of you are not out in constant below 32 degree temperatures camping anyway. I can recover driving the full 240 ah in less than an hour. No burden as I said.

Our first week in Alvar we camped in 5*F the first night and went through a week with no time over freezing 24/7 and mostly under 20*F. and 0*F the last night before finding warm weather. We didn't plug in at anytime on the road. That was over 3 years ago. You can nitpick all you want but we have enjoyed and experienced it 3 YEARS and brewing a Keurig cup of coffee anytime we want while you debate.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

..................The batteries are enclosed in a sealed insulated box with electric heating pads sandwiched in between the battery banks. I have two 5 amp pads and yes that is 240ah off the batteries in a 24 hour day if they come on constantly. As I have said, they don't and I suspect many of you are not out in constant below 32 degree temperatures camping anyway. I can recover driving the full 240 ah in less than an hour. No burden as I said. ...............

Not nit picking but trying to get correct units to be used so we have common understanding. So, her is the technical question. Even with 50% duty cycle of heating with electric pads there are only a few days for the van to be left unattended without damage in cold temperature. If hydronic heating would be used the heating could last for weeks. You know so much about ARV so I ask you this question - why ARV is not using Rixen to do it?

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Yes - everything I've read from Daimler news releases say we won't see new Sprinter in USA and Canada until they get the new plant in South Carolina online.

Edit: After reading the ARV Escape story I see the Volta batteries have to be at 43*F to be charged. That sure means they need heaters.

When you have kilowatts of battery,
what is a couple of heating pads?

[Phoebe3]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Of course! It is well known lithium batteries don't accept a charge under 32 degrees without damage. That's battery temperature, not ambient. They set the thermostat to 43 degrees for heat to come on and then it is intermittent at that and they didn't realize they didn't install the heaters or felt they didn't need them until it got down to 14*F. When lithium batteries are in use they produce internal heat. My heaters seldom come on unless ambient is in the low 20s. The 43 degrees is just an optimum temperature to maintain.

The batteries are enclosed in a sealed insulated box with electric heating pads sandwiched in between the battery banks. I have two 5 amp pads and yes that is 240ah off the batteries in a 24 hour day if they come on constantly. As I have said, they don't and I suspect many of you are not out in constant below 32 degree temperatures camping anyway. I can recover driving the full 240 ah in less than an hour. No burden as I said.

Our first week in Alvar we camped in 5*F the first night and went through a week with no time over freezing 24/7 and mostly under 20*F. and 0*F the last night before finding warm weather. We didn't plug in at anytime on the road. That was over 3 years ago. You can nitpick all you want but we have enjoyed and experienced it 3 YEARS and brewing a Keurig cup of coffee anytime we want while you debate.

Davydd, thanks for that information - it explains a lot.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Not nit picking but trying to get correct units to be used so we have common understanding. So, her is the technical question. Even with 50% duty cycle of heating with electric pads there are only a few days for the van to be left unattended without damage in cold temperature. If hydronic heating would be used the heating could last for weeks. You know so much about ARV so I ask you this question - why ARV is not using Rixen to do it?

Because heating pads can run off shore power 15amp circuits indefinitely and pretty much passively. I stored my B three years outside for three winters in Minnesota that way. When plugged into shore power in long term storage I can also monitor the SOC, voltage and cell temperature of the batteries at all times. Rixen depends on a fuel source (diesel) or an electrical source as well and is not passive.

Since we moved to an HOA this year where I can't store my B physically even if allowed, I had planned to store outside on a 15amp circuit at a storage facility same as before but then unattended most of the time. Then I bought a garage condo heated, protected from the weather and an electrical source. I'm a happy camper for it.

[Olbie]

Thanks for your post on heating the lithium batteries Davydd.

I am just getting ready to take apart our Pleasure-Way for our lithium install and had decided to also install a Rixen hydronic system while the coach was taken apart. Yesterday I had to make a trip to Portland so decided to visit with Mike and Jim Rixen and had a great discussion with them about how best to install their system, and walked away with a much simplified concept of how best to install it in our coach. $4,700 later I drove away with a complete system ready to install.

Davydd, I am wondering now based on your experience with the lithium how you would heat the batteries if you were to do it over again?

I see several posts here talking about how expensive these systems are and while they are not cheap, they still seem to be much less expensive than the price of buying a new coach, (and the new coaches likely would still not have these systems installed). Our 2015 Sprinter still has less the 10k miles, yet will have 600 amps of lithium, 3000 watts of inverter and hydronic heat and hot water.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Because heating pads can run off shore power 15amp circuits indefinitely and pretty much passively. I stored my B three years outside for three winters in Minnesota that way. When plugged into shore power in long term storage I can also monitor the SOC, voltage and cell temperature of the batteries at all times. Rixen depends on a fuel source (diesel) or an electrical source as well and is not passive.

Since we moved to an HOA this year where I can't store my B physically even if allowed, I had planned to store outside on a 15amp circuit at a storage facility same as before but then unattended most of the time. Then I bought a garage condo heated, protected from the weather and an electrical source. I'm a happy camper for it.

I agree that in your case electric pads are simple and are making perfect sense. For ARV on other hand a hydronic heating could null Lithium batteries low temperature issues especially having the Rixen system as standard in their builds.

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I agree that in your case electric pads are simple and are making perfect sense. For ARV on other hand a hydronic heating could null Lithium batteries low temperature issues especially having the Rixen system as standard in their builds.

I would agree that it really doesn't make much sense to use limited electric power to generate heat if you have another source like diesel. Lots more BTUs in a tank of diesel than even huge battery banks. For long term storage, it would be interesting to see which would last longer, the batteries to run the heater or the diesel in the tank. It would certainly help, I think if it were equipped with valving so you could just heat the insulated battery case and not all the rest of the van, though.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

I would agree that it really doesn't make much sense to use limited electric power to generate heat if you have another source like diesel. Lots more BTUs in a tank of diesel than even huge battery banks. For long term storage, it would be interesting to see which would last longer, the batteries to run the heater or the diesel in the tank. It would certainly help, I think if it were equipped with valving so you could just heat the insulated battery case and not all the rest of the van, though.

I have Espar D5 heating my Isotemp water heater. D5 is used in the Rixen system, very robust with a lot of safety loops, I wouldn’t hesitate leaving the van with Espar staying on. I agree that a separate winterizing loop just for Li could be the best option. Eberspacher new EasyStart controls could activate the unit remotely from either 1000m remotes or mobile network / Wi-Fi. I am not sure how would this work with Rixen which is not using modern Eberspacher EasySmart controls as far as I know, but I could be wrong. https://www.eberspaecher.com/en/prod...-controls.html

I am installing the EasyStart Timer to control Espar D2 and Espar D5, it is this Century control design. Currently am using DigiMax for D2 and switch for D5.

[Technomadness]

Originally Posted by Olbie

Ours has a large dry bath with Corian Shower, but technically it is a B+.

Lithionics make a really large group of batteries of different physical sizes and shapes. We had plenty of room for 600amps.

You have a Plateau XLMB right? Where did you decide to locate the battery? I think you’re building my dream rig.

[Technomadness]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

Lithiums offer a lot of convenience and sometimes you really need what they offer, but the math just didn't work for us. We have two 105 ah wet cells that you can buy for $120 each. For the cost of a Lithium setup, I calculate that I could run those two batteries into the ground and replace them every year for 45 years!

100ah BattleBorn battery is about $980. You will replace your batteries every year and in only ten years you will have paid %20 more for your disposable batteries while the lithium’s will likely have only used a fraction of their useful life.

And you will have paid four times as much in gas to haul the heavier batteries around... while having half the capacity, less persistent voltage, and limited power delivery capability.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Technomadness]

Ok, there’s a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding in this thread.

First off “lithium” is not a battery type. There are at least four major battery chemistries based on lithium.

Lithium Ion has been very popular in laptops and charging them below freezing makes permanent damage.

But the batteries in RVs are Lithium Iron Phospate. aka LFP.

Research and articles about “lithium ion” are likely not relevant to LFP. This is why you shouldn’t assume you know more than others because of an article you read somewhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Technomadness]

As to the Lithionics temperature sheet, that has been misrepresented as well. They say storing down to -4 for a month is still warranted. That means they are guaranteeing that there won’t be damage in that condition.

To hear some of the claims here you would think if a battery hits -5 it goes nuclear and levels a couple city blocks.

This also means that it’s QUITE POSSIBLE you can store LFP batteries disconnected at -20 degrees for a month with no damage.

Certainly nobody has presented evidence to the contrary.

Hell maybe you can store LFP batteries at -30 degrees for a year with no damage.

All we know is that lithionics isn’t gonna warranty that scenario.

There’s a huge gap between that and claiming that damage will occur.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Technomadness

100ah BattleBorn battery is about $980. You will replace your batteries every year and in only ten years you will have paid %20 more for your disposable batteries while the lithium’s will likely have only used a fraction of their useful life.

...

Do you have an old smartphone? or an old digital camera?
The phone only last half a day?
The camera won't hold charges anymore?

Wait they are not old, they are only a few years young.

The lithium battery ages just like any other battery types.